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Germany's ex-royals want their riches back

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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:00 pm

I don't see the issue. They're normal citizens now, not the Emperors, Princes, and Princesses of Germany, so they should by right get their riches back. Only one Hohenzollern out of many supported the Nazis; he's probably not even alive anymore. Give them their money back. Germany promised it.
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Rost Dreadnorramus
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Postby Rost Dreadnorramus » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:01 pm

I think they have a right to reclaim that which was their's.
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Herzpunkt
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Postby Herzpunkt » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:01 pm

Herfitiya wrote:An interesting article. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, is locked in a legal battle for more than 10,000 family artifacts seized or lost after World War II.

In 1918, following defeat in World War I, the country ditched its royal family to become a republic and a democracy. The then-Kaiser and his family gave up their power but got to keep a substantial part of the fortune they'd amassed over the centuries: castles, land, artworks, crowns, swords and jewels. The ex-royals then went into exile in the Netherlands.

After World War II, Germany was divided into west and east, with the communist Soviet Union and the German Democratic Republic taking control of the latter and seizing the property of ordinary citizens and ex-royals alike. The vast majority of the then-privately-owned German royal fortune fell on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. It would take almost half a century for the Berlin Wall to come down.

Shortly after, in the 1990s, a reunified Germany passed a law allowing anyone whose property was expropriated to reclaim it. Millions of ordinary families that had fled East Germany used the legislation to reclaim their homes. But the law came with a very specific catch: Those who "substantially supported" the Nazis were ineligible.

This all means that a complex legal claim being debated in 2020 hinges, ultimately, on the actions of one man in the 1930s: Prince Georg's great-grandfather (and the son of Germany's last Kaiser, Wilhelm II), Crown Prince Wilhelm.


The fact that events which occurred almost 100 years ago still have legal implications is very interesting to me. This also brings up ethical and moral questions such as if the right to property should be considered sacred. What do you think NSG?

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/h ... index.html


I mean if its families possessions and its legal
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Postby Risottia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:03 pm

Herfitiya wrote:An interesting article. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, is locked in a legal battle for more than 10,000 family artifacts seized or lost after World War II.


And this is why killing off the Capets and the Romanovs wasn't such a bad move after all.
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Postby Risottia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:06 pm

Atheris wrote:I don't see the issue. They're normal citizens now, not the Emperors, Princes, and Princesses of Germany, so they should by right get their riches back. Only one Hohenzollern out of many supported the Nazis; he's probably not even alive anymore. Give them their money back. Germany promised it.


Eh no. The Kronprinz was a Nazi supporter.

Wilhelm broke the promise he had made to Stresemann to stay out of politics. Adolf Hitler visited Wilhelm at Cecilienhof three times, in 1926, in 1933 (on the "Day of Potsdam") and in 1935. Wilhelm joined Der Stahlhelm, which merged in 1931 into the Harzburg Front, a far-right organisation of those opposed to the democratic republic.[8]:13

The former Crown Prince was reportedly interested in the idea of running for Reichspräsident as the right-wing candidate against Paul von Hindenburg in 1932, until his father (who privately supported Hindenburg) forbade him from acting on the idea. After his plans to become president had been blocked by his father, Wilhelm supported Hitler's rise to power.[8]:13
Last edited by Risottia on Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:08 pm

Risottia wrote:
Atheris wrote:I don't see the issue. They're normal citizens now, not the Emperors, Princes, and Princesses of Germany, so they should by right get their riches back. Only one Hohenzollern out of many supported the Nazis; he's probably not even alive anymore. Give them their money back. Germany promised it.


Eh no. The Kronprinz was a Nazi supporter.

Wilhelm broke the promise he had made to Stresemann to stay out of politics. Adolf Hitler visited Wilhelm at Cecilienhof three times, in 1926, in 1933 (on the "Day of Potsdam") and in 1935. Wilhelm joined Der Stahlhelm, which merged in 1931 into the Harzburg Front, a far-right organisation of those opposed to the democratic republic.[8]:13

The former Crown Prince was reportedly interested in the idea of running for Reichspräsident as the right-wing candidate against Paul von Hindenburg in 1932, until his father (who privately supported Hindenburg) forbade him from acting on the idea. After his plans to become president had been blocked by his father, Wilhelm supported Hitler's rise to power.[8]:13

The catch is that '[t]hose who "substantially supported' the Nazis were ineligible."

The catch lies in the wording of 'substantially supported'. What does that mean? Identifying with Nazi politics and supporting Hitler financially? Just going to his rallies and voting for him? Being in the Wehrmacht? Just getting caught up in the mass hysteria over him?

As far as I can tell and from my personal opinion, just liking the Nazis isn't enough to be considered "substantially supportive". The Hohenzollerns should obviously get their money back - the Himmlers, not so much.
Last edited by Atheris on Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Intaglio
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Postby Intaglio » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:08 pm

Risottia wrote:
Herfitiya wrote:An interesting article. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, is locked in a legal battle for more than 10,000 family artifacts seized or lost after World War II.


And this is why killing off the Capets and the Romanovs wasn't such a bad move after all.

I'm sorry, are you actually saying you support their murders?
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Germany’s ex-royals want their riches back

Postby Deacarsia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:09 pm

I think that the Prince Georg Friedrich is right, and the riches should be returned.
Last edited by Deacarsia on Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:09 pm

Risottia wrote:
Herfitiya wrote:An interesting article. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, is locked in a legal battle for more than 10,000 family artifacts seized or lost after World War II.


And this is why killing off the Capets and the Romanovs wasn't such a bad move after all.


Whoa whoa whoa.

Really now?

Risottia wrote:
Atheris wrote:I don't see the issue. They're normal citizens now, not the Emperors, Princes, and Princesses of Germany, so they should by right get their riches back. Only one Hohenzollern out of many supported the Nazis; he's probably not even alive anymore. Give them their money back. Germany promised it.


Eh no. The Kronprinz was a Nazi supporter.

Wilhelm broke the promise he had made to Stresemann to stay out of politics. Adolf Hitler visited Wilhelm at Cecilienhof three times, in 1926, in 1933 (on the "Day of Potsdam") and in 1935. Wilhelm joined Der Stahlhelm, which merged in 1931 into the Harzburg Front, a far-right organisation of those opposed to the democratic republic.[8]:13

The former Crown Prince was reportedly interested in the idea of running for Reichspräsident as the right-wing candidate against Paul von Hindenburg in 1932, until his father (who privately supported Hindenburg) forbade him from acting on the idea. After his plans to become president had been blocked by his father, Wilhelm supported Hitler's rise to power.[8]:13


It's debated by historians. Theres an expertise by renowed historians Christopher Clark who says the Hohenzollern were ultimatively insignificant figures in the rise of Nazi Germany.

Nonetheless, i am not in support of their claims. They have for sure more than enough cash. Ultimatively it will probably be settled in court or they get some payment in return for renouncing their claim.
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Postby Cordel One » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:10 pm

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Postby Intaglio » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:10 pm

I mean, I don't really see the issue; if the properties in question are rightfully theirs, why should they not have them back? It's not like they're asking for the throne back or something.
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:13 pm

Cordel One wrote:Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité! These parasites have no right to that which their ancestors pillaged!

I was just waiting for you to say something like this.

:p
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Postby Atheris » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:14 pm

Cordel One wrote:Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité! These parasites have no right to that which their ancestors pillaged!

I knew you were gonna come here eventually! :P
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Postby Intaglio » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:15 pm

Cordel One wrote:Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité! These parasites have no right to that which their ancestors pillaged!

Pillaged? They're asking for the return of things like properties, jewels, artwork and treasures like that. Most of those things would hve built or commissioned by the family themselves, so it's hardly "pillaging" and regardless of whether it was pillaged, that has no legal bearing on their ownership of it.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:16 pm

Intaglio wrote:I mean, I don't really see the issue; if the properties in question are rightfully theirs, why should they not have them back? It's not like they're asking for the throne back or something.


The question is if House Hohenzollern or their members around this time had a substantially impact on the rise and establishment of, and support for Nazi-Germany. Which is... doubtful. At least as far as the "significant" part is concerned.
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Postby Cordel One » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:16 pm

Atheris wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité! These parasites have no right to that which their ancestors pillaged!

I knew you were gonna come here eventually! :P

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité! These parasites have no right to that which their ancestors pillaged!

I was just waiting for you to say something like this.

:p

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Postby Risottia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:18 pm

Nakena wrote:
Risottia wrote:
And this is why killing off the Capets and the Romanovs wasn't such a bad move after all.


Whoa whoa whoa.

Really now?


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Postby Atheris » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:18 pm

Nakena wrote:
Intaglio wrote:I mean, I don't really see the issue; if the properties in question are rightfully theirs, why should they not have them back? It's not like they're asking for the throne back or something.


The question is if House Hohenzollern or their members around this time had a substantially impact on the rise and establishment of, and support for Nazi-Germany. Which is... doubtful. At least as far as the "significant" part is concerned.

Fun fact: Ol' Kaiser Billy asked Hitler if he's restore the Hohenzollerns when he came to power in 1933. Hitler basically said "lol fuck off," and after that Silly Willy didn't really like the Nazis anymore - not that there's any evidence to prove he liked them to begin with, although it should be noted that Billy the Kais' was an antisemite.
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Postby Orostan » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:19 pm

Herfitiya wrote:An interesting article. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, is locked in a legal battle for more than 10,000 family artifacts seized or lost after World War II.

In 1918, following defeat in World War I, the country ditched its royal family to become a republic and a democracy. The then-Kaiser and his family gave up their power but got to keep a substantial part of the fortune they'd amassed over the centuries: castles, land, artworks, crowns, swords and jewels. The ex-royals then went into exile in the Netherlands.

After World War II, Germany was divided into west and east, with the communist Soviet Union and the German Democratic Republic taking control of the latter and seizing the property of ordinary citizens and ex-royals alike. The vast majority of the then-privately-owned German royal fortune fell on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. It would take almost half a century for the Berlin Wall to come down.

Shortly after, in the 1990s, a reunified Germany passed a law allowing anyone whose property was expropriated to reclaim it. Millions of ordinary families that had fled East Germany used the legislation to reclaim their homes. But the law came with a very specific catch: Those who "substantially supported" the Nazis were ineligible.

This all means that a complex legal claim being debated in 2020 hinges, ultimately, on the actions of one man in the 1930s: Prince Georg's great-grandfather (and the son of Germany's last Kaiser, Wilhelm II), Crown Prince Wilhelm.


The fact that events which occurred almost 100 years ago still have legal implications is very interesting to me. This also brings up ethical and moral questions such as if the right to property should be considered sacred. What do you think NSG?

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/h ... index.html

lol

They got that stuff by stealing from the people. It's only right that the stuff should belong to the people now.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:20 pm

Risottia wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Whoa whoa whoa.

Really now?


Crowned heads rolling make excellent wheels for the revolution train. It's an old tradition since the times of Jolly Old Ollie Ironsides.


Then don't complain if you keep getting Berlusconis, Trumps and Orbans. Because that is what you deserve.
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Postby New Visayan Islands » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:20 pm

Risottia wrote:
Herfitiya wrote:An interesting article. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, is locked in a legal battle for more than 10,000 family artifacts seized or lost after World War II.


And this is why killing off the Capets and the Romanovs wasn't such a bad move after all.

Cordel One wrote:Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité! These parasites have no right to that which their ancestors pillaged!

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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:21 pm

Herfitiya wrote:An interesting article. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, is locked in a legal battle for more than 10,000 family artifacts seized or lost after World War II.

In 1918, following defeat in World War I, the country ditched its royal family to become a republic and a democracy. The then-Kaiser and his family gave up their power but got to keep a substantial part of the fortune they'd amassed over the centuries: castles, land, artworks, crowns, swords and jewels. The ex-royals then went into exile in the Netherlands.

After World War II, Germany was divided into west and east, with the communist Soviet Union and the German Democratic Republic taking control of the latter and seizing the property of ordinary citizens and ex-royals alike. The vast majority of the then-privately-owned German royal fortune fell on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. It would take almost half a century for the Berlin Wall to come down.

Shortly after, in the 1990s, a reunified Germany passed a law allowing anyone whose property was expropriated to reclaim it. Millions of ordinary families that had fled East Germany used the legislation to reclaim their homes. But the law came with a very specific catch: Those who "substantially supported" the Nazis were ineligible.

This all means that a complex legal claim being debated in 2020 hinges, ultimately, on the actions of one man in the 1930s: Prince Georg's great-grandfather (and the son of Germany's last Kaiser, Wilhelm II), Crown Prince Wilhelm.


The fact that events which occurred almost 100 years ago still have legal implications is very interesting to me. This also brings up ethical and moral questions such as if the right to property should be considered sacred. What do you think NSG?

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/h ... index.html


If they legally qualify they should be able to retrieve the land.
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Postby Cordel One » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:22 pm

Intaglio wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité! These parasites have no right to that which their ancestors pillaged!

Pillaged? They're asking for the return of things like properties, jewels, artwork and treasures like that. Most of those things would hve built or commissioned by the family themselves, so it's hardly "pillaging" and regardless of whether it was pillaged, that has no legal bearing on their ownership of it.

They were gained through exploitation of the working class and imperialism. These things belong in a museum.
Last edited by Cordel One on Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Phoenixy
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Postby Phoenixy » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:23 pm

There's no moral right in this. A deposed royal family is merely a family and their ill-gotten wealth that was sustained by their subjects for centuries prior to getting away from their hands should in no way return to them. If they lack accommodations they should petition for some welfare check, heh.

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Postby Commonwealth of Hank the Cat » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:23 pm

I was researching one of the castles George Friedrich wanted, and I was just thinking about all the money he could make if he made it into some kind of tourist resort. Get a little restaurant, maybe a hotel, offer tours, etc. He could make a bundle. It's big enough.

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