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US Court Rules First Amendment Protects Conversion Therapy

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Arcturus Novus
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US Court Rules First Amendment Protects Conversion Therapy

Postby Arcturus Novus » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:19 pm

https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2020-11-20/us-appeals-court-voids-south-florida-bans-on-conversion-therapy-for-children
(Reuters) - A divided federal appeals court on Friday declared unconstitutional two south Florida laws that banned therapists from offering conversion therapy to children struggling with their sexual orientation or gender identity.

In a 2-1 decision, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with two therapists who said the laws in the city of Boca Raton and Palm Beach County violated their free speech rights.

Circuit Judge Britt Grant said that while enjoining the laws "allows speech that many find concerning--even dangerous," the First Amendment "does not allow communities to determine how their neighbors may be counseled about matters of sexual orientation or gender."

Conversion therapy aims to change people's sexual orientations or gender identities.

The therapists, Robert Otto and Julie Hamilton, said their clients typically had "sincerely held religious beliefs conflicting with homosexuality," and sought counseling to conform their identities and behaviors with those beliefs.

Republican President Donald Trump appointed both judges in Friday's majority.

Circuit Judge Barbara Martin, appointed by Democratic President Barack Obama, dissented, citing a compelling interest in protecting children from a "harmful therapeutic practice."

In separate statements, Boca Raton's lawyer Jamie Cole and Palm Beach County's lawyer Helene Hvizd called the dissent "well-reasoned," and said both were weighing their legal options.

Mat Staver, a lawyer for the therapists, called the decision the first of its kind by a federal appeals court, and "a huge victory" enabling people to choose counseling free of government censorship.

A June study by the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law said 20 states and Washington, D.C. ban licensed healthcare professionals from conducting conversion therapy on children.

Critics say the practice stigmatizes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, and is linked to depression, anxiety and suicide.

The American Psychiatric Association also opposes conversion therapy, saying the practice often assumes that homosexuality is a mental disorder.

Some supporters of the practice have offered religious justifications or said it is unethical not to offer clients that option.

The case is Otto et al v City of Boca Raton, Florida et al, 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, No. 19-10604.


Well, NSG. I can't say I like this ruling. The 11th Circuit's ruling to overturn its ban on conversion therapy for minors is a blow to the rights of both children and LGBT people. Conversion therapy is more often than not, demonstrably, torture and mental conditioning. It isn't therapy. I've lost friends to conversion therapy and similar religious abuse. I can only hope this case doesn't result in further rollback of the rights of queer people in the US.

But what do y'all think? Is the appellate court justified in its ruling? Should conversion therapy be protected under the mantle of "sincerely held religious beliefs"? Does this set the precedent for anti-LGBT legislation down the road?
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Disgraces
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Postby Disgraces » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:22 pm

I think it's ok
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:24 pm

Disgraces wrote:I think it's ok


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Postby Galloism » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:24 pm

I'm only reading your article here, and have not done any legwork, but it appears to be that this is a case of talk therapy.

This doesn't appear to be a case of car batteries and waterboarding or things of that nature.

Am I correct?
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Postby Disgraces » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:26 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Disgraces wrote:I think it's ok


What is?

Conversion therapy being legal
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Tsaivao
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Postby Tsaivao » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:27 pm

Yet another case of touting about "MY freedoms" and "MY beliefs" over your own child's wishes...

I wasn't aware that the first amendment allowed individuals the right to oppress people they disagree with so long as they used the word "freedom" at least once in the sentence. So what if your child is gay, it should still be a decision for when the child becomes an adult and can decide for themselves if they want to tackle their identity in that manner.
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Postby Necroghastia » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:28 pm

Disgraces wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
What is?

Conversion therapy being legal

Why is child abuse okay?
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:29 pm

Disgraces wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
What is?

Conversion therapy being legal


So you support torturing kids in an ineffective attempt to force them to express a certain sexuality or gender identity?
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Disgraces
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Postby Disgraces » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:30 pm

Nvm I didn't read about it being banned.for children lol
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Postby Page » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:30 pm

Galloism wrote:I'm only reading your article here, and have not done any legwork, but it appears to be that this is a case of talk therapy.

This doesn't appear to be a case of car batteries and waterboarding or things of that nature.

Am I correct?


Talking can be abusive when you're trying to destroy someone's sexuality or gender identity. In fact I'd say it is a lot more damaging than physical abuse.
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Postby Nuroblav » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:30 pm

The only way in which I see this sort of therapy as feasible is if the person in question consents, rather than just their carers. And since I doubt that's what they mean by allowing freedom for the option, then no. I can't say I'm a fan either.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:30 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Disgraces wrote:Conversion therapy being legal


So you support torturing kids in an ineffective attempt to force them to express a certain sexuality or gender identity?

Notably, this case isn't about such torture - it's entirely about speech therapy/counseling.

Here's the case:

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/ap ... 11-20.html
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Postby Xelsis » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:30 pm

The same people who call conversion therapy, and we are talking about the kind that is just that, simply talking, 'torture', tend to be the same people who think it is perfectly acceptable to provide permanently body-altering hormones to children under the age of consent.

The law that was struck down explicitly provides an exception to allow for counselling to "provide assistance" to "undergoing gender transition". That, more than anything else, is 'conversion therapy.'
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Postby Vivolkha » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:31 pm

Regardless of your religious beliefs, reality is that conversion therapy is a fraud and potentially a form of torture, and deserves to be banned.
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Postby Tsaivao » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:31 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Disgraces wrote:Conversion therapy being legal


So you support torturing kids in an ineffective attempt to force them to express a certain sexuality or gender identity?

I wonder if there's a study or statistic that exists to show the actual effectiveness of conversion therapy on individuals. I highly doubt that anything short of murder is capable of permanently transofmring someone to the ""correct"" orientation.

Seriously why does being gay bother people so much?
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Postby Galloism » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:31 pm

Page wrote:
Galloism wrote:I'm only reading your article here, and have not done any legwork, but it appears to be that this is a case of talk therapy.

This doesn't appear to be a case of car batteries and waterboarding or things of that nature.

Am I correct?


Talking can be abusive when you're trying to destroy someone's sexuality or gender identity. In fact I'd say it is a lot more damaging than physical abuse.

Arguably, but let's set the terms of the discussion - some people here are already hooking up the car batteries and it's not about that.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:32 pm

Xelsis wrote:The same people who call conversion therapy, and we are talking about the kind that is just that, simply talking, 'torture', tend to be the same people who think it is perfectly acceptable to provide permanently body-altering hormones to children under the age of consent.

The law that was struck down explicitly provides an exception to allow for counselling to "provide assistance" to "undergoing gender transition". That, more than anything else, is 'conversion therapy.'

You're trying to equate pseudo-science to accepted and proven science.
So called 'conversion therapy' is pseudo-science.
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Postby Romextly » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:33 pm

I mean, it's not like it's forcing conversion therapy
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Postby Esalia » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:34 pm

Romextly wrote:I mean, it's not like it's forcing conversion therapy


Conversion therapy on minors is practically forced.
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Postby Disgraces » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:34 pm

Galloism wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So you support torturing kids in an ineffective attempt to force them to express a certain sexuality or gender identity?

Notably, this case isn't about such torture - it's entirely about speech therapy/counseling.

Here's the case:

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/ap ... 11-20.html

In that case then yes just don't be a dickhead and ask your kid if he wants to do it.
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Postby Romextly » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:35 pm

Esalia wrote:
Romextly wrote:I mean, it's not like it's forcing conversion therapy


Conversion therapy on minors is practically forced.

That is illegal. But on the side of the parents. Not the actual therapy
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Postby Albrenia » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:35 pm

Romextly wrote:I mean, it's not like it's forcing conversion therapy


Only if it's against the child's wishes, it literally is forcing conversion therapy.

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Postby Page » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:35 pm

Galloism wrote:
Page wrote:
Talking can be abusive when you're trying to destroy someone's sexuality or gender identity. In fact I'd say it is a lot more damaging than physical abuse.

Arguably, but let's set the terms of the discussion - some people here are already hooking up the car batteries and it's not about that.


As someone who was hit a lot as a kid I can tell you that felt utterly trivial compared to the mental and emotional abuse. I see no value in pointing out that there is no physical pain involved.
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Postby Romextly » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:36 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Romextly wrote:I mean, it's not like it's forcing conversion therapy


Only if it's against the child's wishes, it literally is forcing conversion therapy.

As I stated, that is the fault on the parents
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Postby Tsaivao » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:36 pm

Xelsis wrote:The same people who call conversion therapy, and we are talking about the kind that is just that, simply talking, 'torture', tend to be the same people who think it is perfectly acceptable to provide permanently body-altering hormones to children under the age of consent.

The law that was struck down explicitly provides an exception to allow for counselling to "provide assistance" to "undergoing gender transition". That, more than anything else, is 'conversion therapy.'

Got any citations for anyone who advocates forcefully injecting minors with hormones? Because no one I know of in my circle would support that either, but I still think conversion therapy is torture. So am I a statistical outlier or are you just making up a strawman?

How about if we had gay conversion therapy, in which we convince straight people to become gay through these same verbal methods. Would this sit well with you?
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