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[DRAFT] Condemn Chingis

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Daytime to Night
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[DRAFT] Condemn Chingis

Postby Daytime to Night » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:30 am

This is still a work in progress but I figured I may as well post my current draft so others can contribute at this point.

Chingis is someone who has undeniably and genuinely been a game-changing innovator in the R/D world. Chingis has always endeavoured to perfect raiding scripts that create a new, elite chasing challenge for defenders and shatter the two-figure raiding and chasing records that were considered impressive when they entered the game but now pale in comparison to what has been achieved since.

Its no coincidence that the Security Council has been inundated with condemnation proposals for Lily, for Hell/Horsemen of the Apocalypse, for Trieltics, for Canterlot, since Chingis entered the game. Very few nations have changed the meta and changed the challenge for defenders in the way that Chingis has and I believe they are more than worthy of a condemnation at this point.

Acknowledging that the nation of Chingis formed from the exiled peoples of ChingisOtchigin following that country's destruction,

Dismayed that many of the violent practices of ChingisOtchigin have been continued by the leaders of Chingis,

Noting the raiding activities of Chingis over many years, particularly as part of the notorious region of Lily,

Fearfully respecting the nation's technological advancement, and condemning its utilisation of this technology for weaponry such as the Kimchi, Miso, Koru and Buzzy Bee programs used in warfare for many years and exported to other violent nations,

Believing that Chingis deserves the blame for Lily's terrorism, including at least 1,294 known raids where Chingis has been directly involved and thousands more where their technologies were utilised by its allies,

Shocked that Chingis and other nations operating with Chingisian support participated in the mass invasion of 576 regions on 3rd August 2020 as part of Operation Stargazer,

Recognising the pivotal role of Chingis as one of the famed Horsemen of the Apocalypse, delivering then-unprecedented levels of nuclear destruction in the 4th Nuclear Apocalypse with 332,564 strikes delivered,

Understanding that Chingis used the puppet state Love and Glitter as a founding nation of the region Canterlot, a short-lived but prolific raiding region that stampeded over 263 regions,

Believing that as second-in-command of the Canterlot military, Chingis is accountable and culpable for its colorful crimes - for which the region was momentarily condemned by the Security Council under Resolution #220,

Recognising that many of the victims of raids conducted by both Canterlot and Lily have suffered long-term sight loss from the tactics employed by these groups and that Chingis has aided these efforts without remorse,

Also noting Chingis' past association with the group known as DEN, a dishonourable group of nations renowned for its cheaters, looters and warmongers, where Chingis participated in notable raids of Portugal, Shadow Proclamation and St Abbaddon,

Reporting that Chingis developed technologies utilised by the region Trieltics that enabled its nations to efficiently raid 1,257 regions within only a short period of activity,

Believing that these deplorable activities are more than worthy of Security Council attention and condemnation,

Hereby condemns the nation of Chingis for these crimes.


A few notes:

I welcome input from those who have raided alongside Chingis. Personally I feel that C&Cs from across the trenches are better than in-house backpatting which I why I have chosen to lead on this - I'm not aware of any parallel efforts to condemn Chingis.

ChingisOtchigin led a then-record 112 region raid on 4th March 2016. Although this is notable I have left this out of the DEN section due to the use of Predator in that operation. Instead, I have focused on significant occupations that Chingis participated in as part of DEN - which I feel is a better reflection of their legacy and didn't utilise illegal tools.
Last edited by Daytime to Night on Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Honeydewistania » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:56 am

I wouldn’t put fearfully respecting, I’d put just fearing instead. Also, the Trieltics clause and the ultimate clause are missing ending punctuation.

I have full support for this proposal, I think it’s high time Lily can officially be branded as terrorists, especially for harbouring despicable nations like Frenchy and Sweeze >:(
Last edited by Honeydewistania on Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tinhampton » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:17 am

Shiny thing = yay. "576 of regions" sounds a bit off :P
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Postby Daytime to Night » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:41 am

Thanks, have made those non-material changes
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Postby A Bloodred Moon » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:24 am

Overall, I am opposed to this as it stands. Tagging is neither harmful nor particularly hard, and I don't see any feats of exceptional raider leadership in the draft. Sure, he coded things, but I don't think that alone makes him condemnable. Furthermore, even the things he did code have only been used by a few, and hardly have had a large impact on raiding as a whole, nor have they led to major raids to my knowledge (aside from Stargazer and other large-scale Lily tag runs, of course, but while impressive, I don't believe Stargazer or the other Lily raids have or will make a long-lasting impact). Beyond that, I have a few comments and suggestions for whatever they're worth:

Daytime to Night wrote:Its no coincidence that the Security Council has been inundated with condemnation proposals for Lily, for Hell/Horsemen of the Apocalypse, for Trieltics, for Canterlot, since Chingis entered the game. Very few nations have changed the meta and changed the challenge for defenders in the way that Chingis has and I believe they are more than worthy of a condemnation at this point.

No coincidence, perhaps, but I have seen next to none that made a solid argument.

Noting the raiding activities of Chingis over many years, particularly as part of the notorious region of Lily,

Perhaps merge this clause with the one before? They both serve as the same introduction.

Fearfully respecting the nation's technological advancement, and condemning its utilisation of this technology for weaponry such as the Kimchi, Miso, Koru and Buzzy Bee programs used in warfare for many years and exported to other violent nations,

Agreed with Honeydwistania, and perhaps find a different word than "[...] other violent nations"? It reads somewhat... off? Perhaps try "invader nations" or "warmongering nations"?

Believing that Chingis deserves the blame for Lily's terrorism, including at least 1,294 known raids where Chingis has been directly involved and thousands more where their technologies were utilised by its allies,

Very, very minor thing that I noticed was the use of both "their" and "its" - perhaps pick one of the two?

Shocked that Chingis and other nations operating with Chingisian support participated in the mass invasion of 576 regions on 3rd August 2020 as part of Operation Stargazer,

Okay, while I agree that this is an impressive amount, perhaps do some expanding on this?

Recognising the pivotal role of Chingis as one of the famed Horsemen of the Apocalypse, delivering then-unprecedented levels of nuclear destruction in the 4th Nuclear Apocalypse with 332,564 strikes delivered,

When are we condemning TGW? :p

Overall, I don't think I'm a fan of including events in condemnations. It isn't really condemnable, from my perspective anyway.

Understanding that Chingis used the puppet state Love and Glitter as a founding nation of the region Canterlot, a short-lived but prolific raiding region that stampeded over 263 regions,

Okay, why is that notable? 263 isn't all that much by today's standards, and I personally have hardly ever heard of Canterlot. Tagging is both next to harmless and easy to do.

Believing that as second-in-command of the Canterlot military, Chingis is accountable and culpable for its colorful crimes - for which the region was momentarily condemned by the Security Council under Resolution #220,

Recognising that many of the victims of raids conducted by both Canterlot and Lily have suffered long-term sight loss from the tactics employed by these groups and that Chingis has aided these efforts without remorse,

The condemnation was only up for 8 days, and was swiftly repealed. In fact, all the arguments presented in the repeal address practically anything present in this draft. Coding garish WFEs is not particularly condemnable, and Canterlot's activities were all tag raids from what I can gather. Again, neither harmful nor particularly impressive.

Also noting Chingis' past association with the group known as DEN, a dishonourable group of nations renowned for its cheaters, looters and warmongers, where Chingis participated in notable raids of Portugal, Shadow Proclamation and St Abbaddon,

Fair enough.

Reporting that Chingis developed technologies utilised by the region Trieltics that enabled its nations to efficiently raid 1,257 regions within only a short period of activity,

I haven't heard of Chingis doing anything whatsoever for Trieltics.
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Daytime to Night
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Postby Daytime to Night » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:15 am

Thanks for the comments, I'll go through the specifics if/when I receive other comments but in terms of the general merits of the proposal

I began writing this when thinking about which invaders have genuinely reshaped the r/d game. Not to take away from the accomplishments of other condemned raiders, but many of them are simply credited for being poorer versions of those who came before them. For example, the successful sleeper operations of Rai don't really compare to what we used to see from DEN (in its original forms) and the lengths they went to. There have been some decent holds in the last year or so, but they don't match up to the skill level of 2016/17 LWU and 2008/09 DEN and CLT.

In contrast, Chingis is someone who actually has reshaped the landscape of r/d and forced groups to think bigger about what they can accomplish, and Defenders to work harder in their efforts to stop them. That is why I have made them the focus of my first Condemnation attempt and not other potentially deserving candidates.

You are quite vocal in your disinterest of tag raiding but that doesn't diminish its relevance. You say you don't see what Lily raids have or will make a long-lasting impact, but tell me which has a longer impact; a 500+ region tag run that will likely not be fully reversed for weeks by Defenders and stretches the idea of what can be accomplished in a single update, or a 25-man LWU hold that is liberated at the next update?

Tag raiding (at the levels the organisations I have referenced achieve) takes a high level of skill and efficiency, rather than just one jump and a pile. That is only achieved at the levels we have seen in recent years because of Chingis' innovations and efforts.

I'd suggest your unfamiliarity with the Lily-defender level tagging/chasing game is probably limiting your ability to understand the significance of Chingis' contributions. For example you say "I haven't heard of Chingis doing anything whatsoever for Trieltics", but without Chingis' technology Trieltics is just a TBH two-man tagging team. Chingis' tech took them to a wholly different level of proficiency and any defender who chased them could testify to that.

Canterlot is an important part of Chingis' history and their condemnation, no matter how unwarranted, is intended to be a fun reference that sets up the next clause.

Definitely have no intention of taking out the reference to N-day and don't see a convincing argument for doing so. The site-wide fear of the Horsemen is something Chingis is as responsible for as anyone and N-day goes to show just how OP Chingis is as a player.
Last edited by Daytime to Night on Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Refuge Isle » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:54 am

Half of Trieltics here,

I'll confirm that Chingis developed the tool that we used, although I don't think he expected we'd make Trieltics with it :lol:. I'll also apologise that the information on the WFE doesn't seem to be right. The WFE was the running total of what we thought we hit, but I reconstructed the raid reports a few months ago, based on the content of the op server and the data dumps for all the times we tagged. That work makes up these dispatches, and I think the exact number of verifiable hits comes to 1,233. I've updated the WFE accordingly.

Weird how 110 hits at minor is still awesome, but not quite as awesome as it was in February.
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Postby A Bloodred Moon » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:48 pm

Daytime to Night wrote:I began writing this when thinking about which invaders have genuinely reshaped the r/d game. Not to take away from the accomplishments of other condemned raiders, but many of them are simply credited for being poorer versions of those who came before them. For example, the successful sleeper operations of Rai don't really compare to what we used to see from DEN (in its original forms) and the lengths they went to. There have been some decent holds in the last year or so, but they don't match up to the skill level of 2016/17 LWU and 2008/09 DEN and CLT.

I encourage you to write condemns of those as well if you believe them to be deserving candidates.

In contrast, Chingis is someone who actually has reshaped the landscape of r/d and forced groups to think bigger about what they can accomplish, and Defenders to work harder in their efforts to stop them. That is why I have made them the focus of my first Condemnation attempt and not other potentially deserving candidates.

I am unsure if they reshaped the landscape on a significant scale, though. Certainly, Chingis’ influence might make it harder for chasers, but I am unsure to what extend most people have been directly impacted by Chingis’ actions.

You are quite vocal in your disinterest of tag raiding but that doesn't diminish its relevance. You say you don't see what Lily raids have or will make a long-lasting impact, but tell me which has a longer impact; a 500+ region tag run that will likely not be fully reversed for weeks by Defenders and stretches the idea of what can be accomplished in a single update, or a 25-man LWU hold that is liberated at the next update?

LWU does not appear to be the subject of a drafted condemnation right now, is it?

Tag raiding (at the levels the organisations I have referenced achieve) takes a high level of skill and efficiency, rather than just one jump and a pile. That is only achieved at the levels we have seen in recent years because of Chingis' innovations and efforts.

Not at all something I denied or even commented on. What I did ask is how impactful a tag run actually is, and how condemnable.

For example you say "I haven't heard of Chingis doing anything whatsoever for Trieltics", but without Chingis' technology Trieltics is just a TBH two-man tagging team. Chingis' tech took them to a wholly different level of proficiency and any defender who chased them could testify to that.

Contrary to what you might believe, I do know that. What I did say is that I was unsure if it was fair to credit Chingis for Trieltics’ work, as he had no direct involvement. If I may suggest, perhaps dedicate a clause to Chingis’ technology being utilised by several regions (Lily, Trieltics, etc.)?

Canterlot is an important part of Chingis' history and their condemnation, no matter how unwarranted, is intended to be a fun reference that sets up the next clause.

Up to you. I merely have to question what Canterlot’s impact was and how condemnable and/or notable Chingis’ involvement was to the interregional community.

Definitely have no intention of taking out the reference to N-day and don't see a convincing argument for doing so. The site-wide fear of the Horsemen is something Chingis is as responsible for as anyone and N-day goes to show just how OP Chingis is as a player.

Once again, up to you. I can only make suggestions.
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Postby Kyorgia » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:16 pm

A Bloodred Moon wrote:

Understanding that Chingis used the puppet state Love and Glitter as a founding nation of the region Canterlot, a short-lived but prolific raiding region that stampeded over 263 regions,

Okay, why is that notable? 263 isn't all that much by today's standards, and I personally have hardly ever heard of Canterlot. Tagging is both next to harmless and easy to do.

wow how dare you

A Bloodred Moon wrote:
Recognising that many of the victims of raids conducted by both Canterlot and Lily have suffered long-term sight loss from the tactics employed by these groups and that Chingis has aided these efforts without remorse,
The condemnation was only up for 8 days, and was swiftly repealed.
In fact, all the arguments presented in the repeal address practically anything present in this draft. Coding garish WFEs is not particularly condemnable, and Canterlot's activities were all tag raids from what I can gather. Again, neither harmful nor particularly impressive.


I would argue Condemn Canterlot was the last good condemn actually and Tim acting on behalf of the gameplay elites repealed it. Condemn Canterlot was written by a native rather than someone well known within gameplay. This makes the condemnation more authentic rather than just another well done pat on the back between friends.

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Postby RiderSyl » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:26 pm

DEN is rightfully only mentioned in passing due to how it nearly killed R/D, but as a former Colonel in DEN who had access to their raid logs long after i left the region, Chingis was a constant presence there, leading raids and contributing to the majority of their activity for a long time. Chingis never knew that Predator (DEN's raiding tool) was illegal, but still received one of the harshest penalties in the Predator scandal punishments partly just because of how incredibly active he was during the years that DEN used it. if his early raiding career wasn't tainted by circumstances out of his control, i think this Condemn would be an easy one to pass. his role in LILY and the breath of fresh air that was Canterlot is just more proof he deserves it.
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Postby Chingis » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:57 pm

Regarding Trieltics - I can confirm that I never raided with Trieltics, nor ever developed anything with them in mind. That being said, Kana asked me if she could use a version of Buzzy that I had modified to run properly on the Trieltics server well before the region started raiding with it (which was very kind of her), much in the same way that she asked if I was okay with sharing my other tools with Refuge before she passed it on to them. While this was happening I continued to modify and update the tools as I have always done, something that is not targetted at any specific region but rather the collective needs of the individuals using them.

Hopefully, that clears up that particular discussion.

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Postby Flanderlion » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:07 pm

I like. Although he prefers Minor Updates to Major Updates, he has done a decent amount and deserves recognition for being one of the main reasons defenders upped their game.
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Postby Daytime to Night » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:23 am

Will be going through this again tomorrow so welcome any further comments before then

RiderSyl wrote:DEN is rightfully only mentioned in passing due to how it nearly killed R/D, but as a former Colonel in DEN who had access to their raid logs long after i left the region, Chingis was a constant presence there, leading raids and contributing to the majority of their activity for a long time. Chingis never knew that Predator (DEN's raiding tool) was illegal, but still received one of the harshest penalties in the Predator scandal punishments partly just because of how incredibly active he was during the years that DEN used it. if his early raiding career wasn't tainted by circumstances out of his control, i think this Condemn would be an easy one to pass. his role in LILY and the breath of fresh air that was Canterlot is just more proof he deserves it.


This is important and Chingis had about 4,000 raids/hits under the DEN banner, approximately half of which he led/pointed.

Canterlot may not have been too significant in raider history in terms of longevity and accomplishment but was a change of pace organisation that moved away from the militant rhetoric of some of raiding's historical roots, brought fun back and changed the tone of some defender - raider interactions (whilst still being adept and effective in what it did).
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:47 am

My only comment would be to drop the Horseman clause further down in the document. Where it is at the moment it breaks up the flow of Chingis’ raiding achievements. Feels a bit of a non sequitur.
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Postby Jakker » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:13 am

Daytime to Night wrote:Personally I feel that C&Cs from across the trenches are better than in-house backpatting which I why I have chosen to lead on this.


You are welcomed to commend/condemn anyone you want like anyone else. This proposal has potential once more detail is inputted. However, no need to try to paint this as some noble or innovative act. Chingis has participated in several liberations over the last couple of years. That is not to take anything away from this proposal or the attempt. I just think calling this going "across the trenches" as a bit of an exaggeration. This is more condemning someone who has a tunnel to your trench and visits on occasion and brings food for you and sometimes fights with you and sometimes against.

Kyorgia wrote:I would argue Condemn Canterlot was the last good condemn actually and Tim acting on behalf of the gameplay elites repealed it. Condemn Canterlot was written by a native rather than someone well known within gameplay. This makes the condemnation more authentic rather than just another well done pat on the back between friends.


This argument is misguided. Most commendations and condemnations have been written by established authors and/or people who had some connection to the nominee. Look at all the commendations that defenders have written for defenders. You would think if defenders have done so much for natives then more would take the initiative to write a commendation.

Even if you want to argue that condemnations are different because they are meant to advocate against certain behavior, the argument is misleading. There has been a push for some time that condemnations should not be pursued because they only draw attention and recognition to the nominee. Here is just one example: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=486609&hilit And over the last year, there has been this confusing narrative that even if the actions are condemnable and are worthy of a condemnation but if one disagrees with the actions, the condemnation shouldn't happen. So obviously natives will be much less inclined to actually write a condemnation.

But even with all of that, condemnations by natives still happen. I have seen condemnation attempts for various raiding organizations and specific raiders. But they just are not able to make it to vote for various reasons including not having the knowledge of needing to send a campaign telegram or not having the kind of quality necessary. Condemn Canterlot was able to make it to vote and somehow pass even though there were plenty of questions with quality and worth. I highly doubt something like that would pass now. And lastly, Refuge made a good point in another thread where most people, outside of GP, just don't care enough about these things to write a condemnation. So all of that is to say, trying to make arguments for condemnations that are "authentic" does not really take into account all of these various dynamics at play.
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Postby The Ambassadors Reception » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:18 pm

I'm very much in favour of this.

There's been several condemnation attempts on Lily, (mostly by people who don't know what they're doing). So the wider world can understand why Chingis is a legitimate menace to society.

I'm somewhat out of the loop, but it seems to me that Lily break record after record when it comes to raiding, breaking barriers that no-one else comes close to.

From a personal point of view, Miso and Busy Bee have been responsible for several sudden drops in our embassy count.

Lily changed the way that many people look at raiders. They're mostly viewed as fun naughty kids rather than evil bad guys. A lot of people have a soft spot for them, and it's down to the way they approach raiding. The culture they brought to R/D was refreshing, and I believe they attracted a lot of people to gameplay who otherwise would have had no interest.
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Postby Akhtariil » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:19 am

The Security Council needs to take a harsh stance on every former member of the den of villainy and general evil otherwise known as Canterlot, and we see no better place to start than with Chingis, who was one of the main orchestrators of Canterlots evil world domination plans.

The whome must be free from the grasp of canterlotian hooves, and this condemnation is one way we can make sure it remains so. As such, Akhtariil fully supports this condemnation, as long as Canterlot is mentioned in it.


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