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(Q) Is it okay to use someone's nation for permission

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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Rwekazaland
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Capitalist Paradise

(Q) Is it okay to use someone's nation for permission

Postby Rwekazaland » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:06 pm

Is it okay to use like another nation when someone says like yes to it?
I am Rwekazaland. An very nice country that you can live in.

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2020 IS GETTING MORE BAD ALL WE CAN DO ABOUT IT IS CRY

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Farnhamia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:13 pm

Rwekazaland wrote:Is it okay to use like another nation when someone says like yes to it?

It is not advisable. That person will be held accountable for everything you do with their nation, just as you would be responsible if you let them use yours.
Wash Your Damned Hands!

Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:40 pm

Rwekazaland wrote:Is it okay to use like another nation when someone says like yes to it?

As Farn already noted, sharing a nation is not banned, but we recommend against it. You'll want to review this bit from the OSRS in particular for further details:
The OSRS wrote:
Regarding Sharing Accounts
What is "sharing accounts"?
As far as moderation is concerned, a nation account is shared if more than one person has accessed it. Whether a nation is being used by a group of players, or a nation is given permanently from Player A to Player B, both instances are shared.

Is sharing nations among multiple players allowed?
It is allowed, but moderation's stance on the act is to avoid it as an unnecessary risk. There are no "safe" ways to share a nation, only ways that are "slightly less unsafe."

What are the risks?
  • Personally Identifying Info - If you do not scrub your PII from the nation before handing it off, the recipient may be able to use that very same tool to see your personally identifying information, including your IP and email address! Anyone with access to that nation (and has that nation's password) can access the PII report! NOTE: Performing a PII scrub prior to transfer of a nation DOES NOT REMOVE ANY OF THE OTHER RISKS!
  • WA warnings - If you're sharing around a WA member nation while one or more people with access to it also maintain WA accounts, you run a greater risk of getting caught on the WA cheatscanner.
  • Warning history - If you share a nation that has a moderation warning history, you risk having that history associated with you.
  • Bans/DEATs/DOSes - Sharing nations around muddies the moderation trail and increases the risk of one or more players being at risk for moderation enforcement they didn't actually earn. Although moderation will do what we can to avoid this confusion, if players share nations around enough, it truly becomes almost impossible to definitively tell who has control of what.
  • Nation theft - Fact is, the more people have access to a nation, the less secure it is. If one of the owners hijacks that shared account, there will be nothing moderation can do to help the others recover it.
  • Outright malice - If one person with access to shared account goes on a rulebreaking rampage, everyone with access to that account risks having disciplinary actions levied against them, as the system will have trouble telling Player A from Player B when they both login to Nation X regularly.
So why don't you ban it?
Enforcing such a ban would be impractical at best. Hence it falls under the same general umbrella of "player responsibility" as things like your password security, caution about sharing computers or using publicly accessible ones, and so on. Players can share, and will share, and thus they accept the risks that go with it.
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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:46 am

This is a question that seems somewhat related to the topic. I use a VPN (and a Device ID Masker) which may potentially cause an IP address to appear the same as another player using the same VPN, since the VPN I use is a fairly common one. How problematic is this?
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Frisbeeteria
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Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:45 am

Sharing devices is not the same as sharing IP addresses. We routinely (well, pre-COVID) have students in a single school sharing a common IP but on their own laptops or tablets. As long as you aren't sharing devices, having a matching IP is not likely a problem.

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CoraSpia
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Capitalizt

Postby CoraSpia » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:15 pm

I hope that the mods don't mind me stepping in here, as it isn't marked as a report thread and I have experience with this issue.

As someone who in the past has regularly shared nations, I would recommend against it in all but the most pressing of curcumstances. I have both had a friends puppet deleted when I broke the rules in 2013 and got puppetswept, as well as dodging a very nasty bullet when another friend asked me to 'mind' (Why?) his account for him: that player was later made DoS. Unless you know the player extremely well and there is really not a method of you doing some crucial task without the sharing of nations, it's a risk best left alone.
I'm not sure if the mods would be okay with someone asking for a warning history report on their nation and then screenshotting it and sending it to the person they intend to share a nation with, but even if that's within the rules it still can't account for future activity by the nation owner impacting on the person the nation is then shared with.
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:12 pm

CoraSpia wrote:I hope that the mods don't mind me stepping in here, as it isn't marked as a report thread and I have experience with this issue.

As someone who in the past has regularly shared nations, I would recommend against it in all but the most pressing of curcumstances. I have both had a friends puppet deleted when I broke the rules in 2013 and got puppetswept, as well as dodging a very nasty bullet when another friend asked me to 'mind' (Why?) his account for him: that player was later made DoS. Unless you know the player extremely well and there is really not a method of you doing some crucial task without the sharing of nations, it's a risk best left alone.
I'm not sure if the mods would be okay with someone asking for a warning history report on their nation and then screenshotting it and sending it to the person they intend to share a nation with, but even if that's within the rules it still can't account for future activity by the nation owner impacting on the person the nation is then shared with.

^-- great example of the risks associated with account sharing.

Users are well within their rights to ask for a copy of their warn history, and what they do with that copy afterward is up to them. Even if the other player is willing to share that information however, there's no guarantee that they are providing it accurately. They could easily fake a screenshot of the Voice of Mod telegram, or just straight up edit a copy-and-paste of the text to misrepresent their history.

As always, our advice is that it's a risky behavior best avoided. If someone chooses to do so anyway, it's their risk to take.
Forum mod since May 8, 2003 -- Game mod since May 19, 2003
Sunset's DoGA FAQ - For those using DoGA to make their NS military and such.
One Stop Rules Shop -- Reppy's Sig Workshop -- Getting Help Page
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Ifreann wrote:Bring Reppy your signet rings, she is our Brony Queen now!

I believe in the magic of friendship, the wholly awesome bronydom, the conventions of fans,
the forgiveness of haters, the resurrection of faith in humanity, and love everlasting.

In nomine poni, et filly, et spiritus stable.
Char Aznable/Giant Meteor 2024! - Forcing humanity to move into space and progress whether we goddamn want to or not!

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CoraSpia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10237
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Capitalizt

Postby CoraSpia » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:15 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:I hope that the mods don't mind me stepping in here, as it isn't marked as a report thread and I have experience with this issue.

As someone who in the past has regularly shared nations, I would recommend against it in all but the most pressing of curcumstances. I have both had a friends puppet deleted when I broke the rules in 2013 and got puppetswept, as well as dodging a very nasty bullet when another friend asked me to 'mind' (Why?) his account for him: that player was later made DoS. Unless you know the player extremely well and there is really not a method of you doing some crucial task without the sharing of nations, it's a risk best left alone.
I'm not sure if the mods would be okay with someone asking for a warning history report on their nation and then screenshotting it and sending it to the person they intend to share a nation with, but even if that's within the rules it still can't account for future activity by the nation owner impacting on the person the nation is then shared with.

^-- great example of the risks associated with account sharing.

Users are well within their rights to ask for a copy of their warn history, and what they do with that copy afterward is up to them. Even if the other player is willing to share that information however, there's no guarantee that they are providing it accurately. They could easily fake a screenshot of the Voice of Mod telegram, or just straight up edit a copy-and-paste of the text to misrepresent their history.

As always, our advice is that it's a risky behavior best avoided. If someone chooses to do so anyway, it's their risk to take.

am I right in believing that the mods won't do that for you? I couldn't, for example, request a copy of my warn history be sent to Dumb Ideologies (nation example picked as last ns person to dm me on discord and for no other reason) and the mods would oblige such a request?
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

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Reploid Productions
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Posts: 27414
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:22 pm

CoraSpia wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:^-- great example of the risks associated with account sharing.

Users are well within their rights to ask for a copy of their warn history, and what they do with that copy afterward is up to them. Even if the other player is willing to share that information however, there's no guarantee that they are providing it accurately. They could easily fake a screenshot of the Voice of Mod telegram, or just straight up edit a copy-and-paste of the text to misrepresent their history.

As always, our advice is that it's a risky behavior best avoided. If someone chooses to do so anyway, it's their risk to take.

am I right in believing that the mods won't do that for you? I couldn't, for example, request a copy of my warn history be sent to Dumb Ideologies (nation example picked as last ns person to dm me on discord and for no other reason) and the mods would oblige such a request?
Right, the only person we can send a warn history copy to is the player of the nation.

While in theory we could provide a copy of your history to someone else on your request, we really do not want to enable or encourage account sharing, so we would not actually do so if asked.
Forum mod since May 8, 2003 -- Game mod since May 19, 2003
Sunset's DoGA FAQ - For those using DoGA to make their NS military and such.
One Stop Rules Shop -- Reppy's Sig Workshop -- Getting Help Page
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Ifreann wrote:Bring Reppy your signet rings, she is our Brony Queen now!

I believe in the magic of friendship, the wholly awesome bronydom, the conventions of fans,
the forgiveness of haters, the resurrection of faith in humanity, and love everlasting.

In nomine poni, et filly, et spiritus stable.
Char Aznable/Giant Meteor 2024! - Forcing humanity to move into space and progress whether we goddamn want to or not!

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Rwekazaland
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 145
Founded: Sep 03, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Rwekazaland » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:35 am

so.
A nation called "Atlantican people" said that about giving his acc to someone else if they ok with it.
Is this allowed?

Also. so. Sharing an Acc, Allow, but selling. Big no no?
Last edited by Rwekazaland on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
I am Rwekazaland. An very nice country that you can live in.

Participant in:

2020 IS GETTING MORE BAD ALL WE CAN DO ABOUT IT IS CRY

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CoraSpia
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Posts: 10237
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Capitalizt

Postby CoraSpia » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:41 am

Rwekazaland wrote:so.
A nation called "Atlantican people" said that about giving his acc to someone else if they insist.
Is this allowed?

Also. so. Sharing an Acc, Allow, but selling. Big no no?


Not a mod disclaimer, obviously:
Selling an account is never allowed as it falls under the commercialism rule. Also...'if they insist' sounds like you're putting pressure on the guy to give you account access. Given the risks associated with giving account access is that really something you want to be doing?
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

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Rwekazaland
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 145
Founded: Sep 03, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Rwekazaland » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:43 am

CoraSpia wrote:
Rwekazaland wrote:so.
A nation called "Atlantican people" said that about giving his acc to someone else if they insist.
Is this allowed?

Also. so. Sharing an Acc, Allow, but selling. Big no no?


Not a mod disclaimer, obviously:
Selling an account is never allowed as it falls under the commercialism rule. Also...'if they insist' sounds like you're putting pressure on the guy to give you account access. Given the risks associated with giving account access is that really something you want to be doing?

So sharing accs are okay
I am Rwekazaland. An very nice country that you can live in.

Participant in:

2020 IS GETTING MORE BAD ALL WE CAN DO ABOUT IT IS CRY

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Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 108447
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:03 pm

Rwekazaland wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:
Not a mod disclaimer, obviously:
Selling an account is never allowed as it falls under the commercialism rule. Also...'if they insist' sounds like you're putting pressure on the guy to give you account access. Given the risks associated with giving account access is that really something you want to be doing?

So sharing accs are okay

Reploid Productions wrote:
Rwekazaland wrote:Is it okay to use like another nation when someone says like yes to it?

As Farn already noted, sharing a nation is not banned, but we recommend against it. You'll want to review this bit from the OSRS in particular for further details:
The OSRS wrote:
Regarding Sharing Accounts
What is "sharing accounts"?
As far as moderation is concerned, a nation account is shared if more than one person has accessed it. Whether a nation is being used by a group of players, or a nation is given permanently from Player A to Player B, both instances are shared.

Is sharing nations among multiple players allowed?
It is allowed, but moderation's stance on the act is to avoid it as an unnecessary risk. There are no "safe" ways to share a nation, only ways that are "slightly less unsafe."

What are the risks?
  • Personally Identifying Info - If you do not scrub your PII from the nation before handing it off, the recipient may be able to use that very same tool to see your personally identifying information, including your IP and email address! Anyone with access to that nation (and has that nation's password) can access the PII report! NOTE: Performing a PII scrub prior to transfer of a nation DOES NOT REMOVE ANY OF THE OTHER RISKS!
  • WA warnings - If you're sharing around a WA member nation while one or more people with access to it also maintain WA accounts, you run a greater risk of getting caught on the WA cheatscanner.
  • Warning history - If you share a nation that has a moderation warning history, you risk having that history associated with you.
  • Bans/DEATs/DOSes - Sharing nations around muddies the moderation trail and increases the risk of one or more players being at risk for moderation enforcement they didn't actually earn. Although moderation will do what we can to avoid this confusion, if players share nations around enough, it truly becomes almost impossible to definitively tell who has control of what.
  • Nation theft - Fact is, the more people have access to a nation, the less secure it is. If one of the owners hijacks that shared account, there will be nothing moderation can do to help the others recover it.
  • Outright malice - If one person with access to shared account goes on a rulebreaking rampage, everyone with access to that account risks having disciplinary actions levied against them, as the system will have trouble telling Player A from Player B when they both login to Nation X regularly.
So why don't you ban it?
Enforcing such a ban would be impractical at best. Hence it falls under the same general umbrella of "player responsibility" as things like your password security, caution about sharing computers or using publicly accessible ones, and so on. Players can share, and will share, and thus they accept the risks that go with it.
Wash Your Damned Hands!

Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
Minister
 
Posts: 2762
Founded: Sep 01, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:55 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:Sharing devices is not the same as sharing IP addresses. We routinely (well, pre-COVID) have students in a single school sharing a common IP but on their own laptops or tablets. As long as you aren't sharing devices, having a matching IP is not likely a problem.

I think you misunderstood, not only do I use a VPN, but also a Device ID masker, will that cause any major issues?
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Pro: Falange, Command Economy, Class-Cooperation, Nationalism, Authoritarianism, Third Positionism, Border Security
Anti: Communism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Trump, Globalism, Racism, Democracy, Immigration

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Alcala-Cordel
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Founded: Dec 16, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Alcala-Cordel » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:Sharing devices is not the same as sharing IP addresses. We routinely (well, pre-COVID) have students in a single school sharing a common IP but on their own laptops or tablets. As long as you aren't sharing devices, having a matching IP is not likely a problem.

That's good. I've used several VPNs and I was kinda worried about that.
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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
Minister
 
Posts: 2762
Founded: Sep 01, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:47 am

Ah wait never mind the device ID masker doesn’t hide the complete identity of your device, just the one AI trackers use
Not an adherent of Italian Fascism anymore, leaning more and more towards Falangist Syndicalism
Pro: Falange, Command Economy, Class-Cooperation, Nationalism, Authoritarianism, Third Positionism, Border Security
Anti: Communism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Trump, Globalism, Racism, Democracy, Immigration

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Merlonmi
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Nov 25, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Merlonmi » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:30 pm

Not bad, it's her job that or should be used that way.


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