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Fantasy Discussion Thread

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How fantastical to you like your fantasy?

1. Extremely fantastical. Give me my grumkins, gremlins, ghouls and goblins! Hurl asteroids at the damsel in distress!
8
44%
2. Somewhat fantastical. I want to ride a pegasus but no asteroid hurling.
6
33%
3. Middle Ear-I mean ground. Few fantastical creatures and Gandalf should just be a drug addicted seer.
2
11%
4. Somewhat non-fantastical. Whether it's magic or just illusions/delusions should be an open question. Few, if any, fantastical creatures.
1
6%
5. Extremely non-fantastical. Magic basically doesn't exist let alone fantastical creatures. Tbh I don't even know why we are fantasy at this point.
1
6%
 
Total votes : 18

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The Marlborough
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Fantasy Discussion Thread

Postby The Marlborough » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:59 am

Heya ghouls and goblins, I noticed there wasn't a discussion thread specifically for the Fantasy genre as a whole and I think it would be nice to have. We can/should discuss trends in modern fantasy, which ones we like and which ones we don't. The best and worst fantasy tropes and cliches. The best and worst fantasy subgenres, our favorite authors and so forth!

The first topic I'll get started is on the issue of subgenres. I've noticed that low fantasy has been a more popular trend which I think has both pros and cons. On the one hand, the lack of the fantastical and magical allows a story to focus far more on the human condition. However, I do feel like that sometimes it feels empty with the lack of the fantastical and at times it feels like an author is trying to appeal to the haute literature cycles by reducing the fantastical elements. There have been novels where I've wondered why it's even considered fantasy given its lack of anything really, well, fantasy.

I dunno, I like low fantasy but sometimes I wish there was a resurgence in high fantasy within the genre. Give me my elves, dwarves, goblins, etc.
Last edited by The Marlborough on Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Monarchist. Communitarian-Distributist. Eastern Orthodox Christian. Anti-Canadian nationalism. Postliberal. I also hate politics.
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:23 am

I want my Fantasy settings to be completely detached from real life medieval societies and be 100% fantastical. I dislike Low Fantasy because it feels underwhelming as a Fantasy genre and non-believable as an alt-history genre.

Some of my favorite Fantasy settings are that of Forgotten Realms, Magic the Gathering and World of Warcraft.

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Postby Destyntine » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:10 am

I love fantasy, elves, orcs, wizards, y'know.. I just don't like any immortal godly beings who are practically invincible. I can understand a dragon with tougher skin or a sea leviathan that towers over a skyscraper but having a demon lord who is from another dimension who cannot be killed with traditional weaponry while standing slightly taller than a human is a little too much for me.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:39 am

I love writing low fantasy. One of my current work in progresses is a fantasy where the only magic is rumoured (or is used as a label for more advanced technology that the speaker doesn't understand). No goblins or orks or elves or so on - but again, one group of people in the story firmly believes in the existence of fairies, demons and spirits, even though we never actually see these things interact. That story is in many ways an exploration on belief (as well as a ton of other things, which all good stories are), and having it be in the fantasy genre gives a good stage to go look.

One thing that gets me when reading fantasy is how rarely writers actually delve into the implications of their magic systems. I think this is the big critical flaw at the moment in high fantasy, because spending that time working on the nitty gritty is hard. For example, why do people in fantasy still build castles out of rock when there are wizards running around who can lift up mountains? Why do cities not have drills on how to handle dragon attacks?

I've got a project where everyone is a wizard- and their society as a result has to change with it. For example, they have next to no actual manufacturing because they can summon whatever they like.

Also, another problem that gets me in high fantasy is this assumption that humans are like the "default". You know, you get the short, strong and industrious dwarves, the wise and lithe elves, the brutish and violent orcs ... while humans are just kinda in the middle- yet also somehow always the most widespread despite having no actual advantages over everyone else. It would be interesting if there was a story that was just like 'yeah this is high fantasy and oh by the way humans are by far the strongest or smartest or wisest of everyone.'
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:47 am

One other final, separate point- fantasy generally has a problem where it's all copied from Tolkien.

I mean, don't get me wrong, JRR Tolkien's books are a masterpiece of literature, compellingly written and give a window to a fascinating world... but there are lots of other stories that can be told. And our assumptions about what an 'orc' or 'elf' or 'dwarf' are, are far too heavily reliant on how Tolkien envisioned them.

The biggest bug bear for me is elves. The idea of the 'elf' is a thing that crops up in a ton of different mythologies, each with different interpretations of them. Tolkien was a world class academic on the mythologies of Germanic cultures, and many of his works are obviously influenced by them- but they aren't the only interpretation. Norse mythology for example has the idea of elves being malevolent, Romania had them as mischievous. Why don't more writers draw on this inspiration? Why do elves (or some stand-in for them just with a different name, looking at you Sarah J Maas) always in fantasy have to be clearly inspired by what one writer once decided they should be for his story?
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:42 am

-Ocelot- wrote:I want my Fantasy settings to be completely detached from real life medieval societies and be 100% fantastical. I dislike Low Fantasy because it feels underwhelming as a Fantasy genre and non-believable as an alt-history genre.

Some of my favorite Fantasy settings are that of Forgotten Realms, Magic the Gathering and World of Warcraft.

I don't mind finding inspiration from real life medieval settings as it can be an interesting way to introduce the past to readers, especially if done well. More I would say that it should expand from 13th-15th century England and France which tends to be the primary inspiration. There is so much more to explore even within the medieval world to draw inspiration from. Not even limited to just Europe, mind you.

I can't say I dislike Low Fantasy, rather I would like to see a return to some High Fantasy. Sometimes I feel like there is just a bit of an oversaturation with Low Fantasy at the moment.
Destyntine wrote:I love fantasy, elves, orcs, wizards, y'know.. I just don't like any immortal godly beings who are practically invincible. I can understand a dragon with tougher skin or a sea leviathan that towers over a skyscraper but having a demon lord who is from another dimension who cannot be killed with traditional weaponry while standing slightly taller than a human is a little too much for me.
This is something I do agree with. I generally dislike it when God(s) are directly influenced and popping up all over the place. The occasional story is fine but I don't want Wrath of the Titans all the time. I like some mystery with the divine.
Monarchist. Communitarian-Distributist. Eastern Orthodox Christian. Anti-Canadian nationalism. Postliberal. I also hate politics.
Somewhat of a Slavophile, Hispanophile, Persophile and Indophile.
Everything for the people, nothing by the people - Emperor Joseph II
If I could wish immortality on earth, it would only be for the power of relieving the distressed - Maria Theresa
A playlist of medieval music for your enjoyment while you waste time here.
Support the Lil Red Dress Project to bring awareness to MMIWG.

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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:00 am

Chan Island wrote:I love writing low fantasy. One of my current work in progresses is a fantasy where the only magic is rumoured (or is used as a label for more advanced technology that the speaker doesn't understand). No goblins or orks or elves or so on - but again, one group of people in the story firmly believes in the existence of fairies, demons and spirits, even though we never actually see these things interact. That story is in many ways an exploration on belief (as well as a ton of other things, which all good stories are), and having it be in the fantasy genre gives a good stage to go look.
That is quite interesting. The fantasy world I'm constructing is somewhat similar albeit canonically faes, nymphs etc do exist but are rare and a supernatural experience. Some traditional fantasy monsters are also present such as ogres but they are full blown beasts as opposed to human like giants. I guess you can say it straddles the middle.

One thing that gets me when reading fantasy is how rarely writers actually delve into the implications of their magic systems. I think this is the big critical flaw at the moment in high fantasy, because spending that time working on the nitty gritty is hard. For example, why do people in fantasy still build castles out of rock when there are wizards running around who can lift up mountains? Why do cities not have drills on how to handle dragon attacks?
I would say this is true of poorly constructed magical systems, especially overpowered ones, but not all. For example, Brandon Sanderson has a properly constructed magical system that isn't overpowered so it makes sense why people would still build fortifications. Others such as the Dragon Age setting show that mages often are hounded by horrible demons and other forces, which can limit their ability to be useful. In the Witcher hypothetically there could be a mage capable of destroying an entire castle, but it would be incredibly hard and dangerous and complicated and require power that not even the most powerful mage known to exist possessed. It depends but yeah, some high fantasy magic systems are pretty inconsistent.

I've got a project where everyone is a wizard- and their society as a result has to change with it. For example, they have next to no actual manufacturing because they can summon whatever they like.
Now that is a very interesting idea.

Also, another problem that gets me in high fantasy is this assumption that humans are like the "default". You know, you get the short, strong and industrious dwarves, the wise and lithe elves, the brutish and violent orcs ... while humans are just kinda in the middle- yet also somehow always the most widespread despite having no actual advantages over everyone else. It would be interesting if there was a story that was just like 'yeah this is high fantasy and oh by the way humans are by far the strongest or smartest or wisest of everyone.'
I think this a mix of the reader being able to connect more easily as well as being more aware that humanity *isn't* this amazing perfect species, but I do think there should be more nuance in general with the classical fantasy races. Which, to be fair, is starting to emerge more. Though I some blame Tolkien for this, that's unfair as a lot of elves in the LOTR lore were far from perfect and subject to jealousy, rage, greed etc. It's just Elrond, Legolas, and Galadriel are the most prominent elves that people remember and generally display quite admirable traits with Elrond and Galadriel being among the wisest beings in the world to boot.
Monarchist. Communitarian-Distributist. Eastern Orthodox Christian. Anti-Canadian nationalism. Postliberal. I also hate politics.
Somewhat of a Slavophile, Hispanophile, Persophile and Indophile.
Everything for the people, nothing by the people - Emperor Joseph II
If I could wish immortality on earth, it would only be for the power of relieving the distressed - Maria Theresa
A playlist of medieval music for your enjoyment while you waste time here.
Support the Lil Red Dress Project to bring awareness to MMIWG.

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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:02 am

Chan Island wrote:One other final, separate point- fantasy generally has a problem where it's all copied from Tolkien.

I mean, don't get me wrong, JRR Tolkien's books are a masterpiece of literature, compellingly written and give a window to a fascinating world... but there are lots of other stories that can be told. And our assumptions about what an 'orc' or 'elf' or 'dwarf' are, are far too heavily reliant on how Tolkien envisioned them.

The biggest bug bear for me is elves. The idea of the 'elf' is a thing that crops up in a ton of different mythologies, each with different interpretations of them. Tolkien was a world class academic on the mythologies of Germanic cultures, and many of his works are obviously influenced by them- but they aren't the only interpretation. Norse mythology for example has the idea of elves being malevolent, Romania had them as mischievous. Why don't more writers draw on this inspiration? Why do elves (or some stand-in for them just with a different name, looking at you Sarah J Maas) always in fantasy have to be clearly inspired by what one writer once decided they should be for his story?

Blame the influence of the big publishers, they railroaded a lot of similar things because it was what sold at the time. With the self-publishing boom we are seeing more and more different interpretations of even standard fantasy groups. My elves are basically faes and they a) exist generally in a different plane of existence b) their morality is completely different from ours. Sometimes they help, other times they don't. Closer to their original perception.
Monarchist. Communitarian-Distributist. Eastern Orthodox Christian. Anti-Canadian nationalism. Postliberal. I also hate politics.
Somewhat of a Slavophile, Hispanophile, Persophile and Indophile.
Everything for the people, nothing by the people - Emperor Joseph II
If I could wish immortality on earth, it would only be for the power of relieving the distressed - Maria Theresa
A playlist of medieval music for your enjoyment while you waste time here.
Support the Lil Red Dress Project to bring awareness to MMIWG.

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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:13 pm

This being said, I do wish we had different eras of history represented more as well as more non-European based cultures. For example, I'm writing a world similar to the 16th century and heavily inspired by events such as the beginnings of the Reformation, the Italian Wars, expansion of the Ottoman Empire ramifications of the Age of Discovery, the High Renaissance etc.
Monarchist. Communitarian-Distributist. Eastern Orthodox Christian. Anti-Canadian nationalism. Postliberal. I also hate politics.
Somewhat of a Slavophile, Hispanophile, Persophile and Indophile.
Everything for the people, nothing by the people - Emperor Joseph II
If I could wish immortality on earth, it would only be for the power of relieving the distressed - Maria Theresa
A playlist of medieval music for your enjoyment while you waste time here.
Support the Lil Red Dress Project to bring awareness to MMIWG.

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Postby Luminesa » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:29 pm

I really like historical fantasy, and I think it’s because of the books I read as a kid. Most fantasy novels I read were Middle Fantasy, with Magic based in real-life events like the Crusades, certain battles, or even fantasy novels based on Macbeth. This inspired my love of Magical Realism, as well, and I hope to read more Magical Realism to get a feel of what I want to emulate and hold for my own writing. I guess then Middle Fantasy would be my favorite, because it balances the wonders of a fantasy universe with the mundane, normal experiences of people.
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and the greatest is love."
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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:37 pm

Luminesa wrote:I really like historical fantasy, and I think it’s because of the books I read as a kid. Most fantasy novels I read were Middle Fantasy, with Magic based in real-life events like the Crusades, certain battles, or even fantasy novels based on Macbeth. This inspired my love of Magical Realism, as well, and I hope to read more Magical Realism to get a feel of what I want to emulate and hold for my own writing. I guess then Middle Fantasy would be my favorite, because it balances the wonders of a fantasy universe with the mundane, normal experiences of people.

Magical realism is an interesting genre and one that I think fantasy writers should draw more from. Focusing on the mundane is something I can get behind as well. Despite a lot of my conflicts in my own stories being political, I do feel like other aspects of life are ignored. History is more than just wars and diplomacy after all. If anyone knows who Daniel Greene is, the story he is working on is inspired by the Age of Discovery and the, well, discovery of new lands, peoples, and creatures. If he ever finishes it, it would be interesting to read.

In my own writing I try to incorporate POV characters that are not soldiers or nobles but other things. Natural philosophers, doctors, artists, priests, bankers etc.
Monarchist. Communitarian-Distributist. Eastern Orthodox Christian. Anti-Canadian nationalism. Postliberal. I also hate politics.
Somewhat of a Slavophile, Hispanophile, Persophile and Indophile.
Everything for the people, nothing by the people - Emperor Joseph II
If I could wish immortality on earth, it would only be for the power of relieving the distressed - Maria Theresa
A playlist of medieval music for your enjoyment while you waste time here.
Support the Lil Red Dress Project to bring awareness to MMIWG.

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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:07 pm

The Marlborough wrote:
Luminesa wrote:I really like historical fantasy, and I think it’s because of the books I read as a kid. Most fantasy novels I read were Middle Fantasy, with Magic based in real-life events like the Crusades, certain battles, or even fantasy novels based on Macbeth. This inspired my love of Magical Realism, as well, and I hope to read more Magical Realism to get a feel of what I want to emulate and hold for my own writing. I guess then Middle Fantasy would be my favorite, because it balances the wonders of a fantasy universe with the mundane, normal experiences of people.

Magical realism is an interesting genre and one that I think fantasy writers should draw more from. Focusing on the mundane is something I can get behind as well. Despite a lot of my conflicts in my own stories being political, I do feel like other aspects of life are ignored. History is more than just wars and diplomacy after all. If anyone knows who Daniel Greene is, the story he is working on is inspired by the Age of Discovery and the, well, discovery of new lands, peoples, and creatures. If he ever finishes it, it would be interesting to read.

In my own writing I try to incorporate POV characters that are not soldiers or nobles but other things. Natural philosophers, doctors, artists, priests, bankers etc.

Everyday life is important, and because we have so little of it in some fantasy settings, it’s important for us to draw from what little historical settings we have in order to make those stories ourselves. Not to re-write history, per say, but rather to bring readers into unexplored, uncharted territory. Pillars of the Earth did this really well. You wouldn’t think people cared about a stonemason and his itinerant family moving around 12th-14th century England. Yet Ken Follett weaves a very beautiful and fascinating tale of these mundane people moving through a very spiritual, magical world, all while focusing on this man’s desire to just get a stable job in an unstable world.
Last edited by Luminesa on Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
King Alfred's Prayer
Help bring home First Nation girls! Now with more ways to help!
Be safe, wear your mask outside the home, pray for peace, mercy, and justice to reign in our world. God bless you!

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Mustardaise
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Postby Mustardaise » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:10 pm

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Disco Elysium yet.

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Postby Luminesa » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:04 pm

Mustardaise wrote:I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Disco Elysium yet.

I feel like someone else might know what this is, but not quite me. :/
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
King Alfred's Prayer
Help bring home First Nation girls! Now with more ways to help!
Be safe, wear your mask outside the home, pray for peace, mercy, and justice to reign in our world. God bless you!

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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:23 pm

Mustardaise wrote:I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Disco Elysium yet.

I hadn't heard of it but I just looked it up and it sounds quite interesting. Six thousand years of history is a lot to flesh out but damn kudos to them. Also being set in a more modern setting is also really cool. I am an unashamed fan of Shadowrun.
Last edited by The Marlborough on Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Monarchist. Communitarian-Distributist. Eastern Orthodox Christian. Anti-Canadian nationalism. Postliberal. I also hate politics.
Somewhat of a Slavophile, Hispanophile, Persophile and Indophile.
Everything for the people, nothing by the people - Emperor Joseph II
If I could wish immortality on earth, it would only be for the power of relieving the distressed - Maria Theresa
A playlist of medieval music for your enjoyment while you waste time here.
Support the Lil Red Dress Project to bring awareness to MMIWG.

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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:54 pm

The Marlborough wrote:
Mustardaise wrote:I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Disco Elysium yet.

I hadn't heard of it but I just looked it up and it sounds quite interesting. Six thousand years of history is a lot to flesh out but damn kudos to them. Also being set in a more modern setting is also really cool. I am an unashamed fan of Shadowrun.

For modern fantasy (with a blend of sci-fi, I guess), Maximum Ride was a great series.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
King Alfred's Prayer
Help bring home First Nation girls! Now with more ways to help!
Be safe, wear your mask outside the home, pray for peace, mercy, and justice to reign in our world. God bless you!


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