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Claim on Mozart

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

If you must choose, Mozart is...

German
31
38%
Austrian
51
62%
 
Total votes : 82

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Infected Mushroom
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Claim on Mozart

Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:23 pm

It is the 2020s, both Germany and Austria want to claim Mozart as a national.

A legal battle is fought and at the end of the day... Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart will be declared either a German or an Austrian composer.

He won’t be “both,” he won’t be “neither,” he won’t be “Salsburgian”... oh no. He’s either going to be ruled 100 percent a German achiever and master achiever of Germany... or the equivalent in Austria. There’s no sharing.

The court of NSG shall weigh in on the ruling.

Here are the facts (subject to edits if I messed up)

1. He was born in Salzburg. Salzburg was part of the German-speaking Holy Roman Empire but independent at the time.

2. There was no state called Germany at the time.

3. Salzburg is part of modern day Austria, it was never annexed by either Prussia or Germany.

4. Mozart had strong connections to Vienna and had a huge part of his career there, Vienna is the modern capital of Austria; it was then the capital of the Hapsburg Empire (later, the Austrian Empire).

5. Mozart spoke German and considered himself German in an ethnic and cultural sense in his letters

6. His birthplace Salzburg has been called “the German Rome”


You must choose.

If the court must choose, should they declare Mozart German or Austrian? Which facts are the decisive ones?

He’s Austrian. Salzburg is in present day Austria, that’s the most important factor I think. This is similar to how Napoleon is French even though he was born in Corsica at a time it wasn’t ruled by the French, it’s French now
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Echellia
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Postby Echellia » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:24 pm

He is Australian :p
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Twicetagram and JYPe
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Postby Twicetagram and JYPe » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:35 pm

Why are we even fighting do we even need to refer to him as a German or Austrian composer? At least 3/4 of the world should know of him.

If I had to have a say I think German. Since Austria and Germany are related in some ways, and he identified himself as German.
“and considered himself German in an ethnic and cultural sense in his letters” if we’re going by that I think German would be a more respectful way to describe him, since he himself referred to himself as German. His ties to Vienna ultimately don’t matter.
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Rusozak
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Postby Rusozak » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:42 pm

I think it's silly to fight over the national identity of someone when those nations didn't even exist when they were alive. But I would side with Austria purely for location. I don't want to set the precedent of successor states of countries that used to control certain territories laying claim to all the great people to live there since. Lest Italy lay claim to every great mind born in the former territory of the Roman Empire.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:53 pm

Echellia wrote:He is Australian :p


Which explains his extraordinary influence on Australian music. His orchestral pieces didn't get played much, but the didgeridoo was invented to drown out those annoying arias.
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Eukaryotic Cells
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Postby Eukaryotic Cells » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:58 pm

This gets into questions about what being "German" or "Austrian" means. It becomes a touchy subject because of pan-Germanicism, the Austro-Prussian conflicts, Nazism and all that stuff.

I would consider Austrians to be German people, specifically South German people. They have their own history, government, dialectical quirks and so on. Mozart's wider family lived on both sides of the modern German-Austrian border.

He's both I guess. If you forced to me choose, I would say Austrian.
Last edited by Eukaryotic Cells on Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:08 pm

One argument for German is that at the time “Austria” had clearly defined territorial borders in the sense of the Hapsburg Empire and those did not include Salzburg or Bavaria.

So he’d be part of Salzburg/the Holy Roman Empire and at the time that was more “German” than it was “Austrian” since the Hapsburg lands didn’t include Salzburg.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:09 pm

Twicetagram and JYPe wrote:Why are we even fighting do we even need to refer to him as a German or Austrian composer? At least 3/4 of the world should know of him.

If I had to have a say I think German. Since Austria and Germany are related in some ways, and he identified himself as German.
“and considered himself German in an ethnic and cultural sense in his letters” if we’re going by that I think German would be a more respectful way to describe him, since he himself referred to himself as German. His ties to Vienna ultimately don’t matter.


I don’t know. I don’t feel that strongly either way but I was looking it up and was surprised how controversial this was.

I always thought before reading... Mozart? Why he’s German of c... oh wait!

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:16 pm

Clearly Austria and Germany should join up. That way there won't be any problems.
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Eukaryotic Cells
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Postby Eukaryotic Cells » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:27 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:One argument for German is that at the time “Austria” had clearly defined territorial borders in the sense of the Hapsburg Empire and those did not include Salzburg or Bavaria.

So he’d be part of Salzburg/the Holy Roman Empire and at the time that was more “German” than it was “Austrian” since the Hapsburg lands didn’t include Salzburg.

The Holy Roman Empire also included Hapsburg territory (including most of modern Austria); things are definitely messy here.

His father's family was from Augsburg in modern Bavaria. His mother's family was from Salzburg. His wife's family was from Zell im Wiesental in modern Baden-Württemberg, but they moved to Vienna when she was 17. Mozart lived in Vienna and had children there. Someone with more time than me could probably put his whole family lineage on a map.
Last edited by Eukaryotic Cells on Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Slarvainian
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Postby Slarvainian » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:32 pm

I would ask what political system did Mozart participate in as a subject of a jurisdiction and what state "inherited" that jurisdiction?
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:34 pm

theres only one solution. Dig up his corpse and clone him from left over DNA. Its the only way to be sure.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:35 pm

Eukaryotic Cells wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:One argument for German is that at the time “Austria” had clearly defined territorial borders in the sense of the Hapsburg Empire and those did not include Salzburg or Bavaria.

So he’d be part of Salzburg/the Holy Roman Empire and at the time that was more “German” than it was “Austrian” since the Hapsburg lands didn’t include Salzburg.

The Holy Roman Empire also included Hapsburg territory (including most of modern Austria); things are definitely messy here.

His father's family was from Augsburg in Bavaria. His mother's family was from Salzburg. His wife's family was from Baden-Württemberg, but they moved to Vienna when she was 17. Mozart lived in Vienna and had children there. Someone with more time than me could probably put his whole family lineage on a map.


And so are you saying his lineage comes from even further north?

Even more historically Germanic lands?

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Eukaryotic Cells
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Postby Eukaryotic Cells » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:46 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Eukaryotic Cells wrote:The Holy Roman Empire also included Hapsburg territory (including most of modern Austria); things are definitely messy here.

His father's family was from Augsburg in Bavaria. His mother's family was from Salzburg. His wife's family was from Baden-Württemberg, but they moved to Vienna when she was 17. Mozart lived in Vienna and had children there. Someone with more time than me could probably put his whole family lineage on a map.


And so are you saying his lineage comes from even further north?

Even more historically Germanic lands?

There's points for both sides, I guess. If I had to characterize things very broadly, I would say that most of his family came from modern Germany.

However, "Germany" in the way that we understand it now wasn't a thing back then. The modern division between Austria and Germany was a creation of Prussia, which wanted to exclude Austria from German affairs so that it could assume a hegemonic position over the smaller German states.

If you want to divide "Germany" into two parts, the Speyer line/the Main River is a more logical dividing line than the modern German-Austrian border.
Last edited by Eukaryotic Cells on Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:47 pm

He was the same nationality as Hitler.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:05 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:He was the same nationality as Hitler.


So are you saying Austrian?

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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:15 am

I guess he'll have to be Serbian.
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Postby Neo Prutenia » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:29 am

Was Mozart Austrian or German?

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Windows 10
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Postby Windows 10 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:34 am

Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:35 am

The flaw in your latest hypothetical is that it's anachronistic; it applies modern definitions of nationality on the basis of country of birth that didn't really exist in German-speaking lands in the second half of the 18th century, when the Holy Roman Empire was on its last legs, and the rivalry between Prussia and Austria over leadership of 'Germany' was still developing.

Developing German nationalism was based on jus sanguinis rather than jus soli, and the concept that there should be a unified German state, and whether this should be a Kleindeutschland where Protestant Prussia took the lead in uniting all Germany except the Habsburg territories, or a Grossdeutschland where Austria took the lead in uniting all Germany including Prussia only really developed after the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars - by which time Mozart was dead - and was only settled in Prussia's favour, thus ultimately leading to the modern division between Germany and Austria, via the Austro-Prussian war of 1866.

So your question is functionally meaningless. Mozart was an ethnic German from what's now modern Austria; but it's unlikely that Mozart himself would have understood a distinction between 'Deutschland' on the one hand and the Erzherzogtum Österreich [Archduchy of Austria] on the other, especially since he wasn't from 'Austria'. He was from the Fürsterzbistum Salzburg [Prince-Archbishopric of Salzburg], which had been a self-governing principality since the 14th century, and wouldn't cease to exist until after Mozart's death. Historically, Salzburg was closer to Bavaria than Austria, and on its final dissolution as a state it was divided between both of the latter.


Your Napoleon comparison is also a poor one since Corsica was transferred to France in the year of Napoleon's birth, and France has, since the Revolution, emphasised a combination of jus solis and civic nationalism, so that you become French either by being born in France or by accepting French culture; not primarily on the basis of being ethnically French.


An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:He was the same nationality as Hitler.


The key difference being that Braunau am Inn was part of the Habsburg Empire when Hitler was born, whereas the the Fürsterzbistum Salzburg was a separate state of the HRE when Mozart was born.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:36 am

Windows 10 wrote:Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?


Hmmmm... Christoph Waltz?

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Eukaryotic Cells
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Postby Eukaryotic Cells » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:50 am

Windows 10 wrote:Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?

Image

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Postby Kowani » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:52 am

Windows 10 wrote:Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?

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Postby Chan Island » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:33 am

The Archregimancy wrote:The flaw in your latest hypothetical is that it's anachronistic; it applies modern definitions of nationality on the basis of country of birth that didn't really exist in German-speaking lands in the second half of the 18th century, when the Holy Roman Empire was on its last legs, and the rivalry between Prussia and Austria over leadership of 'Germany' was still developing.

Developing German nationalism was based on jus sanguinis rather than jus soli, and the concept that there should be a unified German state, and whether this should be a Kleindeutschland where Protestant Prussia took the lead in uniting all Germany except the Habsburg territories, or a Grossdeutschland where Austria took the lead in uniting all Germany including Prussia only really developed after the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars - by which time Mozart was dead - and was only settled in Prussia's favour, thus ultimately leading to the modern division between Germany and Austria, via the Austro-Prussian war of 1866.

So your question is functionally meaningless. Mozart was an ethnic German from what's now modern Austria; but it's unlikely that Mozart himself would have understood a distinction between 'Deutschland' on the one hand and the Erzherzogtum Österreich [Archduchy of Austria] on the other, especially since he wasn't from 'Austria'. He was from the Fürsterzbistum Salzburg [Prince-Archbishopric of Salzburg], which had been a self-governing principality since the 14th century, and wouldn't cease to exist until after Mozart's death. Historically, Salzburg was closer to Bavaria than Austria, and on its final dissolution as a state it was divided between both of the latter.


Your Napoleon comparison is also a poor one since Corsica was transferred to France in the year of Napoleon's birth, and France has, since the Revolution, emphasised a combination of jus solis and civic nationalism, so that you become French either by being born in France or by accepting French culture; not primarily on the basis of being ethnically French.


An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:He was the same nationality as Hitler.


The key difference being that Braunau am Inn was part of the Habsburg Empire when Hitler was born, whereas the the Fürsterzbistum Salzburg was a separate state of the HRE when Mozart was born.



So basically, the correct answer would be to say that Mozart was a Salzburger, and since that is a state that no longer exists all of the other questions of nationalism and so forth are irrelevant.
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:37 am

Windows 10 wrote:Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?


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