NATION

PASSWORD

THOUGHT EXPERIMENT: Birds Nests

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21186
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

THOUGHT EXPERIMENT: Birds Nests

Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:25 am

Thought Experiment:

My house is not natural. My house was built by a group of human beings. Human beings who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of a house

My car is not natural. My car was built by a group of human beings. Human beings who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of a car

The rail line down the road from my house is not natural. My house was built by a group of human beings. Human beings who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of a rail line

So then why is an ant hill considered to be natural? Ant hills are natural. Ant hills were built by a group of ants. Ants who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of an ant hill

So then why is a bird's nest considered to be natural? Ant hills are natural. Ant hills were built by a group of birds. Birds who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of a birds nest

This is my thought experiment to you, NSG. Discuss...
The reason why I don't have many black friends is not because I'm racist, but because I'm an extreme introvert have like 3 or 4 friends in total. The reason why I don't watch women's sport is not because I am a mysogist, but because I don't watch any sport as I find sports to be quite boring. If you assume that I'm a bigot because I don't do XYZ, perhaps consider whether or not you're asking the wrong questions
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Picairn
Minister
 
Posts: 2259
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:28 am

Uhhh... what are we supposed to discuss? You seem to have made all of the conclusions.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Pauline M. Warburton (Staff)
Long live the Emperor!
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Nobody generates wealth. Wealth exists. You simply shift it around, or sometimes discover more.
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Best DNC shill, Clinton bot, and Soros puppet of 2020. All Hail Biden! ✵
Sic semper tyrannis!

User avatar
Wabbit feefees
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 21, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Wabbit feefees » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:33 am

fair. made by HUMAN will and made by other animal will is a valid difference. at least to humans. but it makes sense to say that ant hills and bird nests are very different to a tree or animal and so not natural. ..artificial.. makes that distinction and ant hills are not artificial. still not sure what they are

it is interesting!

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21186
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:33 am

Picairn wrote:Uhhh... what are we supposed to discuss? You seem to have made all of the conclusions.

We discuss what is and is not considered natural
The reason why I don't have many black friends is not because I'm racist, but because I'm an extreme introvert have like 3 or 4 friends in total. The reason why I don't watch women's sport is not because I am a mysogist, but because I don't watch any sport as I find sports to be quite boring. If you assume that I'm a bigot because I don't do XYZ, perhaps consider whether or not you're asking the wrong questions
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Wabbit feefees
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 21, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Wabbit feefees » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:35 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Picairn wrote:Uhhh... what are we supposed to discuss? You seem to have made all of the conclusions.

We discuss what is and is not considered natural


you have mined out the two best examples though. what about things made by robots.you mentioned cars.?

User avatar
Picairn
Minister
 
Posts: 2259
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:36 am

Australian rePublic wrote:We discuss what is and is not considered natural

Oh ok, I believe the term "natural" is used for any product created by animals, to differentiate from products created by humans, "artificial".
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Pauline M. Warburton (Staff)
Long live the Emperor!
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Nobody generates wealth. Wealth exists. You simply shift it around, or sometimes discover more.
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Best DNC shill, Clinton bot, and Soros puppet of 2020. All Hail Biden! ✵
Sic semper tyrannis!

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21186
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:39 am

Picairn wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:We discuss what is and is not considered natural

Oh ok, I believe the term "natural" is used for any product created by animals, to differentiate from products created by humans, "artificial".

But are humans not naturally occuring animals on this little blue rock called Earth?
The reason why I don't have many black friends is not because I'm racist, but because I'm an extreme introvert have like 3 or 4 friends in total. The reason why I don't watch women's sport is not because I am a mysogist, but because I don't watch any sport as I find sports to be quite boring. If you assume that I'm a bigot because I don't do XYZ, perhaps consider whether or not you're asking the wrong questions
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Bougainville
Secretary
 
Posts: 31
Founded: Apr 04, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Bougainville » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:41 am

Picairn wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:We discuss what is and is not considered natural

Oh ok, I believe the term "natural" is used for any product created by animals, to differentiate from products created by humans, "artificial".

Only one issue with your thought process humans are animals.
Founder of Auratus
Lord Dominator wrote:Since when is there a 'proper' way to play NationStates?

User avatar
Picairn
Minister
 
Posts: 2259
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:50 am

Australian rePublic wrote:But are humans not naturally occuring animals on this little blue rock called Earth?


Bougainville wrote:Only one issue with your thought process humans are animals.

Pretty sure humans are a different class of animals. I mean, we know how to walk on two feet, use tools and build stuff with two hands, as well as having a multitude of emotions, morals, and intelligence which are very different from other animals. Perhaps that is the use of the word "artificial", to differentiate between stuff created by humans and stuff created by other animals.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Pauline M. Warburton (Staff)
Long live the Emperor!
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Nobody generates wealth. Wealth exists. You simply shift it around, or sometimes discover more.
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Best DNC shill, Clinton bot, and Soros puppet of 2020. All Hail Biden! ✵
Sic semper tyrannis!

User avatar
Konolas
Envoy
 
Posts: 229
Founded: May 02, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Konolas » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:52 am

This is what I think is the answer to this thought experiment
Australian rePublic wrote:Thought Experiment:

My house is not natural. My house was built by a group of human beings. Human beings who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of a house

Let’s say that your house is made out of wood. Multible trees needed to be cut down and later turned into planks to make the floors and walls of your house. Planks cannot be found naturally, therefore your house isn’t natural

My car is not natural. My car was built by a group of human beings. Human beings who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of a car

A car is made out of several metals. Those metals needed to be mined out from the earth and melted to form the skeleton of the car (Im not a geologist). Those metals most likely united in the intense heat, therefore your car isn’t natural

The rail line down the road from my house is not natural. My house was built by a group of human beings. Human beings who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of a rail line

It’s the same argument as the car, but with a different metal

So then why is an ant hill considered to be natural? Ant hills are natural. Ant hills were built by a group of ants. Ants who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of an ant hill

An ant hill is made by a material that is the nearest to the queen (probably, im not a biologist), either sand or dirt. The ants do not change the physical propeties of the material, therefore it is natural

So then why is a bird's nest considered to be natural? Ant hills are natural. Ant hills were built by a group of birds. Birds who took a bunch of natural elements from the Earth and fabricated them into the shape of a birds nest

Same as the ant one, but with sticks
Last edited by Konolas on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Our Regions
Our History

A 16.11 civilization, according to this index.
A Class 1,33 Civilization according to this index.
Member of SETA

KNN Now:Igorgrad: The National Assembly is holding a meeting lasting a few day to write a new Konolasian constitution. CoVid-19: Yula, Kiga, West and East Rasland and Hega have become «Red Zones». Citizens in those regions are not allowed to leave their homes. Rest of Konolas is still classified as a «Yellow Zone». Citizens in «Yellow Zones» must wear a medically provided facemask.

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 109188
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:55 am

Natural is unrefined and unaltered. Humans build out of concrete and steel, products that are very different in their natural state. Sticks and dirt are used as is.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Wabbit feefees
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 21, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Wabbit feefees » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:57 am

Bougainville wrote:
Picairn wrote:Oh ok, I believe the term "natural" is used for any product created by animals, to differentiate from products created by humans, "artificial".

Only one issue with your thought process humans are animals.


nothing wrong with the thought process. just a logical controdiction from semantics! wont be the last time in this thread hey

User avatar
Wabbit feefees
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 21, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Wabbit feefees » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:01 am

Ethel mermania wrote:Natural is unrefined and unaltered. Humans build out of concrete and steel, products that are very different in their natural state. Sticks and dirt are used as is.


unrefined by who and unaltered by who? ant hills are refined dirt and bird nests are. um. bits of natural debris altered in their arrangement maybe spat on by a bird. you need a better distinction than .altered. because a rock rolling down a hill alters stuff too

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21186
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:10 am

Picairn wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:But are humans not naturally occuring animals on this little blue rock called Earth?


Bougainville wrote:Only one issue with your thought process humans are animals.

Pretty sure humans are a different class of animals. I mean, we know how to walk on two feet, use tools and build stuff with two hands, as well as having a multitude of emotions, morals, and intelligence which are very different from other animals. Perhaps that is the use of the word "artificial", to differentiate between stuff created by humans and stuff created by other animals.

This is a philosophical thought experiment. Of coarse I know the difference between things built by humans and things built by non-humans. This isn't a question about definitions, this is a philosophical game made to make us come up with a new way of thinking about the world
The reason why I don't have many black friends is not because I'm racist, but because I'm an extreme introvert have like 3 or 4 friends in total. The reason why I don't watch women's sport is not because I am a mysogist, but because I don't watch any sport as I find sports to be quite boring. If you assume that I'm a bigot because I don't do XYZ, perhaps consider whether or not you're asking the wrong questions
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21186
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:13 am

Wabbit feefees wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Natural is unrefined and unaltered. Humans build out of concrete and steel, products that are very different in their natural state. Sticks and dirt are used as is.


unrefined by who and unaltered by who? ant hills are refined dirt and bird nests are. um. bits of natural debris altered in their arrangement maybe spat on by a bird. you need a better distinction than .altered. because a rock rolling down a hill alters stuff too

Ask not what effect the rock has, ask who pushed the rock. Which then begs the question, what's the difference between a human pushing a rock and an elephant pushing a rock
The reason why I don't have many black friends is not because I'm racist, but because I'm an extreme introvert have like 3 or 4 friends in total. The reason why I don't watch women's sport is not because I am a mysogist, but because I don't watch any sport as I find sports to be quite boring. If you assume that I'm a bigot because I don't do XYZ, perhaps consider whether or not you're asking the wrong questions
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Wabbit feefees
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 21, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Wabbit feefees » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:19 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Wabbit feefees wrote:
unrefined by who and unaltered by who? ant hills are refined dirt and bird nests are. um. bits of natural debris altered in their arrangement maybe spat on by a bird. you need a better distinction than .altered. because a rock rolling down a hill alters stuff too

Ask not what effect the rock has, ask who pushed the rock. Which then begs the question, what's the difference between a human pushing a rock and an elephant pushing a rock


the rock was NOT pushed. it was under mined by erosion due to rainfall. does that make anything the rock hits and alters un natural?

only that humans are distinct and special to us. elephants probably feel the same. we are lower animals to them unless we catch and demesticate them. then who knows. if a tame elephant seems to have a sore foot do NOT put your head under to have a look!

User avatar
Shanghai industrial complex
Minister
 
Posts: 2469
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:26 am

Why not ask the ants what they think of it?
And we give it back to you...the people!

User avatar
Wabbit feefees
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 21, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Wabbit feefees » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:29 am

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Why not ask the ants what they think of it?


to talk to the queen you have to put your head inside the ant hill. and thats not a good idea!

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21186
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:33 am

Ethel mermania wrote:Natural is unrefined and unaltered. Humans build out of concrete and steel, products that are very different in their natural state. Sticks and dirt are used as is.

Image
Image
The reason why I don't have many black friends is not because I'm racist, but because I'm an extreme introvert have like 3 or 4 friends in total. The reason why I don't watch women's sport is not because I am a mysogist, but because I don't watch any sport as I find sports to be quite boring. If you assume that I'm a bigot because I don't do XYZ, perhaps consider whether or not you're asking the wrong questions
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
-Ocelot-
Minister
 
Posts: 2048
Founded: Jun 14, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby -Ocelot- » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:37 am

Appeal to nature fallacy. Animals can only be and do good, humans can only be evil. Therefore, a construction made from animals is good, holy and natural, while human constructions are evil and unnatural. People who employ this fallacy call everything human-made "unnatural" because they've been trained to unconditionally love nature.

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21186
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:39 am

-Ocelot- wrote:Appeal to nature fallacy. Animals can only be and do good, humans can only be evil. Therefore, a construction made from animals is good, holy and natural, while human constructions are evil and unnatural. People who employ this fallacy call everything human-made "unnatural" because they've been trained to unconditionally love nature.

So soup kitchens are natural? Bird baths are natural? Veterinary clinics are natural? Where do distinguish between good and evil?
The reason why I don't have many black friends is not because I'm racist, but because I'm an extreme introvert have like 3 or 4 friends in total. The reason why I don't watch women's sport is not because I am a mysogist, but because I don't watch any sport as I find sports to be quite boring. If you assume that I'm a bigot because I don't do XYZ, perhaps consider whether or not you're asking the wrong questions
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 109188
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:59 am

Wabbit feefees wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Natural is unrefined and unaltered. Humans build out of concrete and steel, products that are very different in their natural state. Sticks and dirt are used as is.


unrefined by who and unaltered by who? ant hills are refined dirt and bird nests are. um. bits of natural debris altered in their arrangement maybe spat on by a bird. you need a better distinction than .altered. because a rock rolling down a hill alters stuff too

Those are items still in their native state.

Use "Processed", instead
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 109188
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:09 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Natural is unrefined and unaltered. Humans build out of concrete and steel, products that are very different in their natural state. Sticks and dirt are used as is.

Image
Image

The snowmen don't count as natural. They have machined bits about them

The sandcastle does.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Chan Island
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5112
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:37 am

Hot take- since humans use natural materials, obey the laws of physics and aren't using magic, everything we make is actually completely natural. Houses are natural... in a world with humans.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

User avatar
Dogmeat
Minister
 
Posts: 2808
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Dogmeat » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:56 am

Saying "all of them, except for us" is a Freudian admission that you already know "you" are part of "them."
Immortal God Dog
Hey boy, know any tricks?
天狗

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Amaseia, Bing [Bot], Necroghastia, North American Imperial State, Sundiata, The Greater Ohio Valley, The New California Republic, Victorious Decepticons

Advertisement

Remove ads