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Has「Justified」Political Violence Existed?

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Sanghyeok
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Has「Justified」Political Violence Existed?

Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:03 pm

Violence and politics are intimately linked. The intellectual and military philosopher Clausewitz once famously claimed that "war is the continuation of politics by other means." Today, however, let's discuss not violence on a state against state level, but rather let's discuss violence within states, and in particular the use of violence as a tool of dissent. Examples include for example protests turned violent in the United States following movements for racial equality, or the Yellow Vests in France, and IRA and Unionist bombings in the UK during the period of The Troubles. My question to you then, becomes "has there been political violence which is justified, as a means of fulfilling your goal?"

I argue that there are certain circumstances when it is justified to some extent, but not always. For example, if policies in place are particularly abhorrent such as fascism, or the amount of oppression is too great, and the government doesn't listen to the will of the people and is actively harming them significantly. In those cases I can see why they would want to use violence to display their displeasure and demand reform.

Edited to change tense. This post doesn't condone violence. Let's be kind to one another and make a harmonious society.
Last edited by Sanghyeok on Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:09 pm

Sure. If it works towards the ends it intended to accomplish, and the cons don't outweigh the positives.
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:10 pm

Kowani wrote:Sure. If it works towards the ends it intended to accomplish, and the cons don't outweigh the positives.


But then the question becomes what is considered to be the benefits?
サンヒョク社会主義連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Oomiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:13 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Kowani wrote:Sure. If it works towards the ends it intended to accomplish, and the cons don't outweigh the positives.


But then the question becomes what is considered to be the benefits?

Those would be weighed by the people committing the violence, it's not something I can answer in the abstract.
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Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:18 pm

Bad idea for a thread. Depending on what you say, it could be considered "advocating violence" and result in a mod crackdown.
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Saralonia
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Postby Saralonia » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:19 pm

I think that political violence is justified when a country doesnt give the means of expression or a country doesnt hear those complaints even if originally peaceful, political violence may be justified if a nation doesnt hear the complaints of people and those people aren't willing to back down, sometimes peace sadly fails because a government can just ignore a peaceful protests but once they go violent then a government has no option but to hear or to oppress
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:24 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Bad idea for a thread. Depending on what you say, it could be considered "advocating violence" and result in a mod crackdown.


Good idea, changed to past tense.
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我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Oomiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Chairwoman Oomiya in tea party with Azur Deutschland Rose Twins | Chairwoman Oomiya with delegation from various realms in celebration of 861st Birthday Gala
You may not be Chairwoman Oomiya, but you can borrow her look with the new Oomiya Fall Collection

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:24 pm

Kowani wrote:Sure. If it works towards the ends it intended to accomplish, and the cons don't outweigh the positives.


Pretty much this.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:49 pm

Political violence is justified when non violent activism is suppressed. Or as Kennedy put it Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
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Nilokeras
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Postby Nilokeras » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:51 pm

The threat of violence should always be a part of a broader toolkit used in pursuit of a political agenda. Just like the threat of withholding a vote, nonviolent strategies have to be paired with a willingness to be violent in certain conditions in order for those nonviolent strategies to have an impact. If your opponents or even your political representatives know that there is nothing they could do that would breach those conditions and make you withdraw your electoral support or take up violent struggle then they know they ultimately will have license to do anything and your consent or support is not required.
Last edited by Nilokeras on Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:51 pm

I believe so. Take the French Revolution, at its inception. I’m sure the French people thought the killing of politicians and royalty was justified due to the extreme circumstances they were experiencing. Of course, that then spiraled into its own monster but I think it’s an example of “justified” political violence.
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:53 pm

Whether political violence is justified or not is always an entirely subjective question. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:53 pm

Vassenor wrote:Whether political violence is justified or not is always an entirely subjective question. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.


Or both if you're the CIA with Afghanistan.
サンヒョク社会主義連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Oomiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Chairwoman Oomiya in tea party with Azur Deutschland Rose Twins | Chairwoman Oomiya with delegation from various realms in celebration of 861st Birthday Gala
You may not be Chairwoman Oomiya, but you can borrow her look with the new Oomiya Fall Collection

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:03 pm

Nelson Mandela's guerilla campaign against the South African government, as well as the Irish Republican Army before they started disappearing people.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:16 pm

Of course. Different people look at the same events and conclude differently on whether a particular event was justified though and the consensus can change over time.
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Postby Aureumterra III » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:26 pm

Vassenor wrote:Whether political violence is justified or not is always an entirely subjective question. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

^This^
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Postby Greed and Death » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:48 pm

If it is against those I dislike it is justified, if it is against those I am merely neutral about or like it is unjustified.
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:55 pm

Vassenor wrote:Whether political violence is justified or not is always an entirely subjective question. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.


This is a good take.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:17 pm

The only time violence is justified is if you will save a lot of lives with it. Fighting Hitler was good, but violence in America wouldn't be justified. Only understandable.
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:34 pm

Fighting back against oppressors isn't just justified, it's morally right.
Last edited by Cordel One on Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:37 pm

If it’s against the law? No, it’s not justified.

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:39 pm

Of course it has. One just has to be extremely cautious about it, because it's a difficult genie to put back in the bottle.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:39 pm

Everything is justified to those who believe what they are doing is right.

Infected Mushroom wrote:If it’s against the law? No, it’s not justified.

Who's law? Law isn't some absolute, it comes from somewhere.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:40 pm

Cordel One wrote:Fighting back against oppressors isn't just justified, it's morally right.

No, I don't think so. "Oppressor" is subjective, and the people who think they're fighting oppressors tend to just fight against people who are just as oppressed.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:41 pm

Heloin wrote:Everything is justified to those who believe what they are doing is right.

Infected Mushroom wrote:If it’s against the law? No, it’s not justified.

Who's law? Law isn't some absolute, it comes from somewhere.


It comes from the government/state.

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