-Final prophet in my religion
-Considered to be the best of mankind by my religion
-Someone many of my relatives are named for
-A person I pray for God to bless literally every day
Yeah, I have reason to be offended, mate.
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by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:41 pm
by Kowani » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:44 pm
by Fahran » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:45 pm
by Paddy O Fernature » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:47 pm
Insaanistan wrote:Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Just because you choose to be offended by something, doesn't immediately mean that it actually is.
-Final prophet in my religion
-Considered to be the best of mankind by my religion
-Someone many of my relatives are named for
-A person I pray for God to bless literally every day
Yeah, I have reason to be offended, mate.
by The Marlborough » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:49 pm
Insaanistan wrote:Kilobugya wrote:
Jews don't have such a problem with displaying Moses or David, AFAIK. But Charlie Hebdo does mock all religions equally, and it's not uncommon for teachers to show to students drawings that can be offensive for Christians, like a nun masturbating with a crucifix, or the pope molesting children (as a way to criticize the way the catholic church did massive cover-up for priests abusing children). It might hurt their the feelings of christian students, but when it's done within the context of history lesson, it doesn't shock me. Teaching implies, at some point, teaching about unpleasant facts.
Yeah, but the cartoons were of Muhammad (pbuh), not Jesus (pbuh). Drawing the Pope or a nun would be closer to drawing Iran’s Ayatollah or an imam or sheikh.
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:50 pm
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:50 pm
by Paddy O Fernature » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:52 pm
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56 pm
by Fahran » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:57 pm
The Marlborough wrote:So it's okay for them to show cartoons that would offend Christian students but not Muslim?
by Paddy O Fernature » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:58 pm
Insaanistan wrote:Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Sorry, I forgot that Islam has a special set of rules attached to it so as not to upset it's true believers.
Then would you be this adamant if said cartoon was about another faith and not Islam?
Yes, actually.
If I see a cartoon in Pakistan mocking Ram or a cartoon in Estonia mocking Jesus (pbuh), I’m gonna be mad.
Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isaai: Aapas mein sab bhai bhai!
(Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian: All are my brothers!)
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:17 pm
Paddy O Fernature wrote:Insaanistan wrote:
Yes, actually.
If I see a cartoon in Pakistan mocking Ram or a cartoon in Estonia mocking Jesus (pbuh), I’m gonna be mad.
Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isaai: Aapas mein sab bhai bhai!
(Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian: All are my brothers!)
Then in my opinion, you must constantly be mad over literally nothing then.
by Kowani » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:17 pm
Insaanistan wrote:Kilobugya wrote:
Well, it's more like saying the n- word in a history lesson about racism. Or showing some anti-Semite caricatures in an history lesson about the 1930s to explain the climate that lead to the Shoah. The Charlie Hebdo terror attack is part of modern history, it makes sense for teachers to speak about it. And it's not completely irrelevant to show the drawings published in Cherlie Hebdo that triggered it. I understand it can hurt feelings, but it's still very different from voluntarily insulting someone.
If said caricatures were about Moses (pbuh) or David (pbuh) it’d be a more accurate description. I’m not saying “Let’s just not talk about it.” However, it wasn’t necessary to show the cartoons the way he did.
by Kilobugya » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:18 pm
Insaanistan wrote:-Final prophet in my religion
-Considered to be the best of mankind by my religion
-Someone many of my relatives are named for
-A person I pray for God to bless literally every day
Yeah, I have reason to be offended, mate.
by Thermodolia » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:58 pm
Paddy O Fernature wrote:Insaanistan wrote:
Yes, actually.
If I see a cartoon in Pakistan mocking Ram or a cartoon in Estonia mocking Jesus (pbuh), I’m gonna be mad.
Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isaai: Aapas mein sab bhai bhai!
(Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian: All are my brothers!)
Then in my opinion, you must constantly be mad over literally nothing then.
by Paddy O Fernature » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:25 pm
by Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:30 pm
Paddy O Fernature wrote:Insaanistan wrote:
Yes, actually.
If I see a cartoon in Pakistan mocking Ram or a cartoon in Estonia mocking Jesus (pbuh), I’m gonna be mad.
Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isaai: Aapas mein sab bhai bhai!
(Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian: All are my brothers!)
Then in my opinion, you must constantly be mad over literally nothing then.
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:43 pm
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:43 pm
by Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:47 pm
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:48 pm
Kilobugya wrote:Insaanistan wrote:-Final prophet in my religion
-Considered to be the best of mankind by my religion
-Someone many of my relatives are named for
-A person I pray for God to bless literally every day
Yeah, I have reason to be offended, mate.
Well, I'm an atheist. But there are people I respect a lot and have a lot of emotional commitment too, from persons I consider heroes in politics (Salvador Allende, Guy Môquet, Missak Manouchian, Ambroise Croizat, ...) to family members (like my grand father who risked his live in the International Brigads to try to save Spain from fascism, or my grand-mother who risked her lives to hide Jews from the nazis). I would be very upset if someone mocked, insulted or ridiculed them in front of me.
I'll tell you a personal story. I went mad at my history teacher when I was like 13 or 14, the age of the girl in this tragedy, when he said that french communists collaborated with nazis until Nazi Germany attacked USSR. Because to me he was insulting Guy Môquet, one of my personal idols at the time (and still now). Guy Môquet, son a communist father, who could go to holidays for the first time of his life in 1936 at the age of 12, thanks to Front Populaire, who dreamed of that bright future his father was building for all the working class. To then see all dreams shatter with Nazi occupation and his father arrested. So he joined the clandestine Youth Communists, and distributed flyers against the nazis and the Occupation. He was arrested at 16 and executed with 26 others communists and trade unionists by the nazis at the age of 17, in 1941, before USSR entered the war. He wrote an heartbreaking last letter to his family, wrote "you who will remain, be worthy of us, the 27 who will die" with chalk on his prison cells, and sang the Internationale and the Jeune Garde on his way to death. So yes, I was hurt, outraged and offended when the teacher said the french communists collaborated with the nazis, as he insulted one of my personal heroes.
And yet I wouldn't have mind if a teacher would show me a picture of Guy Môquet being mocked or ridiculed by nazis sympathizers, or by modern right-wing newspapers, or anyone else, as long as the teacher just showed it as a fact, to explain what was the reaction to the execution of Guy Môquet, without defending or validating the message of the drawing.
That's a fundamental difference to me - publishing a cartoon in order to insult or provoke Muslims is indeed problematic. Showing that said cartoon in an history lesson, objectively without approving it, just to explain the events that lead to a situation, shouldn't be perceived as an attack or an offense. If it does, well, I would say the problem is on your side, not on the teacher's side.
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:50 pm
by Kowani » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:53 pm
Insaanistan wrote:Kilobugya wrote:
Well, I'm an atheist. But there are people I respect a lot and have a lot of emotional commitment too, from persons I consider heroes in politics (Salvador Allende, Guy Môquet, Missak Manouchian, Ambroise Croizat, ...) to family members (like my grand father who risked his live in the International Brigads to try to save Spain from fascism, or my grand-mother who risked her lives to hide Jews from the nazis). I would be very upset if someone mocked, insulted or ridiculed them in front of me.
I'll tell you a personal story. I went mad at my history teacher when I was like 13 or 14, the age of the girl in this tragedy, when he said that french communists collaborated with nazis until Nazi Germany attacked USSR. Because to me he was insulting Guy Môquet, one of my personal idols at the time (and still now). Guy Môquet, son a communist father, who could go to holidays for the first time of his life in 1936 at the age of 12, thanks to Front Populaire, who dreamed of that bright future his father was building for all the working class. To then see all dreams shatter with Nazi occupation and his father arrested. So he joined the clandestine Youth Communists, and distributed flyers against the nazis and the Occupation. He was arrested at 16 and executed with 26 others communists and trade unionists by the nazis at the age of 17, in 1941, before USSR entered the war. He wrote an heartbreaking last letter to his family, wrote "you who will remain, be worthy of us, the 27 who will die" with chalk on his prison cells, and sang the Internationale and the Jeune Garde on his way to death. So yes, I was hurt, outraged and offended when the teacher said the french communists collaborated with the nazis, as he insulted one of my personal heroes.
And yet I wouldn't have mind if a teacher would show me a picture of Guy Môquet being mocked or ridiculed by nazis sympathizers, or by modern right-wing newspapers, or anyone else, as long as the teacher just showed it as a fact, to explain what was the reaction to the execution of Guy Môquet, without defending or validating the message of the drawing.
That's a fundamental difference to me - publishing a cartoon in order to insult or provoke Muslims is indeed problematic. Showing that said cartoon in an history lesson, objectively without approving it, just to explain the events that lead to a situation, shouldn't be perceived as an attack or an offense. If it does, well, I would say the problem is on your side, not on the teacher's side.
If it had been more like “the terrorist attacks were over offensive images such as this. Ali, Boubacar, Fatima, I’m about to show an offensive drawing of Muhammad. Please close your eyes if you think you should,” then I’d understand. But it was a bit more like “We have free speech in this country. So, we can show stuff like this. Leave if you’re gonna get offended.”
Not saying he should have been killed. Not by a long shot. Samuel deserved life.
On 6 October last year, Paty, a history and geography teacher, gave a class on the subject of “dilemmas”. He posed the question “to be or not to be Charlie?”, referring to the #JeSuisCharlie hashtag used to express support for the paper after a terrorist attack on its offices in January 2015 that killed 12 people.
Paty is said to have invited Muslim pupils who thought they might be shocked to close their eyes or briefly stand in the corridor while he showed pupils a caricature of the Prophet.
As he had done in similar lessons on free speech in previous years, Paty warned students that he was about to show a depiction of Muhammad. He said anyone who thought they might be offended could close their eyes.
by Insaanistan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:57 pm
Kowani wrote:Insaanistan wrote:
If it had been more like “the terrorist attacks were over offensive images such as this. Ali, Boubacar, Fatima, I’m about to show an offensive drawing of Muhammad. Please close your eyes if you think you should,” then I’d understand. But it was a bit more like “We have free speech in this country. So, we can show stuff like this. Leave if you’re gonna get offended.”
Not saying he should have been killed. Not by a long shot. Samuel deserved life.
small problem
the example that you said would be fine is what happened
from the guardian article i posted earlierOn 6 October last year, Paty, a history and geography teacher, gave a class on the subject of “dilemmas”. He posed the question “to be or not to be Charlie?”, referring to the #JeSuisCharlie hashtag used to express support for the paper after a terrorist attack on its offices in January 2015 that killed 12 people.
Paty is said to have invited Muslim pupils who thought they might be shocked to close their eyes or briefly stand in the corridor while he showed pupils a caricature of the Prophet.
and the BBC versionAs he had done in similar lessons on free speech in previous years, Paty warned students that he was about to show a depiction of Muhammad. He said anyone who thought they might be offended could close their eyes.
by Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:05 pm
Insaanistan wrote:Ethel mermania wrote:Yes I can, and from the paragraph above that from what you wrote i can deduce why insulting them isn't an issue for you.
No, insulting Judaism is an issue for me, mate. Why wouldn’t it be: there were practicing Jews who were martyred fighting along side Muslims at the Battle of Uhud.
Would it make you feel better if I said “or a cartoon in Belgium making fun of David (pbuh)”?
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