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Anti-Socialism Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Who is your favourite anti-socialist author?

Poll ended at Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:23 am

Milton Friedman
9
15%
Ludwig von Mises
3
5%
Thomas Sowell
6
10%
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
10
16%
Ayn Rand
9
15%
Friedrich Hayek
0
No votes
Irving Kristol
1
2%
Karl Popper
6
10%
Boris Pasternak
6
10%
Other
12
19%
 
Total votes : 62

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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 859
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Capitalizt

Anti-Socialism Thread

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:53 pm

Welcome all!
Image


This thread is dedicated to advancing and providing a space for anti-socialist, anti-communist, and anti-Marxist discussion. Anti-socialism is opposition to socialism, but first it's important to understand what socialism is and isn't. In the broadest of terms, socialism (in theory) is an economic and social model that advocates for collective ownership of the "means of production" (basically things that make things). Most often, this "collective ownership" is really just state ownership with the veneer of popular ownership tacked on.

Socialism is opposed to capitalism, whose proponents believe that the means of production should be owned by individuals. Capitalists believe that, by voting with their money, individuals should decide what goods are produced in the free market. In this way firms that are the most efficient, cost-effective and practical for the consumer will rise to the top. Capitalism has coexisted with freedom and liberal democracy since its inception, and greater social/political freedom is exoribly tied to greater economic freedom. Socialists believe that production should be determined by the state, usually through economic planning. The core objective of socialism is the abolition of private property.

It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism.

Communism is the ultimate objective of socialism, which (again, in theory) is a movement whose ultimate objective is the creation of a classless, cashless worker-run society. It bears mentioning that, despite many regimes attempts to create such a society, a communist society has never truly existed and never will, as the ideas of communism are fundamentally impractical. Socialism is the vector through which communism is supposedly to be brought about.

There are different gradations of socialism. More standard fare revolutionary socialists believe that capitalism can only be overthrown by a popular revolution. Socialists of this stripe resort to authoritarian and illiberal actions to fulfill their goals. "Democratic" socialists believe that socialism may be brought about by democratic processes, particularly by electoral democracy. It's important to note that democratic socialists and revolutionary socialists do not differ in their ends. They both seek to establish a socialist society. They only differ in that they have different means to that end.

Of course, it's important to remember that there really is no such thing as "democratic" socialism, because the tenants of socialism are fundamentally anti-democratic. Democracy only exists as long as it respects individual liberty. You cannot strip people of their right to property and still call yourself a democracy. This is of course not to mention that all socialist regimes have been authoritarian hellholes whose economic plans have wreaked incalculable havoc upon the world and resulted in millions of people's needless deaths. Socialism is just an excuse for authoritarianism that has never nor will ever accomplish the goals it sets for itself.




So, anti-socialists of NationStates, here are a few questions:
  1. Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country?
  2. Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up?
  3. At what point is armed resistance against socialism called for?
Last edited by -Ra- on Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
Notes on the Left | Leftism ought not be understood as a concrete political ideology, but rather as a counterculture movement whose principal aim is the total overthrow of democratic society.


Beijing delenda est

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Kowani
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Posts: 34693
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:53 pm

Copium mine
read your own damn sources
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Brettenwald
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Founded: May 03, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Brettenwald » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:54 pm

[citation needed]
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Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Israel rocks; China sucks.
Ahhh, so it's selective tolerance of human rights abuses. I see.
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Anatoliyanskiy
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 473
Founded: Jan 19, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Anatoliyanskiy » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:55 pm

-Ra- wrote:Welcome all!


This thread is dedicated to advancing and providing a space for anti-socialist, anti-communist, and anti-Marxist discussion. Anti-socialism is opposition to socialism, but first it's important to understand what socialism is and isn't. In the broadest of terms, socialism (in theory) is an economic and social model that advocates for collective ownership of the "means of production" (basically things that make things). Most often, this "collective ownership" is really just state ownership with the veneer of popular ownership tacked on.

Socialism is opposed to capitalism, whose proponents believe that the means of production should be owned by individuals. Capitalists believe that, by voting with their money, individuals should decide what goods are produced in the free market. In this way firms that are the most efficient, cost-effective and practical for the consumer will rise to the top. Capitalism has coexisted with freedom and liberal democracy since its inception, and greater social/political freedom is exoribly tied to greater economic freedom. Socialists believe that production should be determined by the state, usually through economic planning. The core objective of socialism is the abolition of private property.

It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism.

Communism is the ultimate objective of socialism, which (again, in theory) is a movement whose ultimate objective is the creation of a classless, cashless worker-run society. It bears mentioning that, despite many regimes attempts to create such a society, a communist society has never truly existed and never will, as the ideas of communism are fundamentally impractical. Socialism is the vector through which communism is supposedly to be brought about.

There are different gradations of socialism. More standard fare revolutionary socialists believe that capitalism can only be overthrown by a popular revolution. Socialists of this stripe resort to authoritarian and illiberal actions to fulfill their goals. "Democratic" socialists believe that socialism may be brought about by democratic processes, particularly by electoral democracy. It's important to note that democratic socialists and revolutionary socialists do not differ in their ends. They both seek to establish a socialist society. They only differ in that they have different means to that end.

Of course, it's important to remember that there really is no such thing as "democratic" socialism, because the tenants of socialism are fundamentally anti-democratic. Democracy only exists as long as it respects individual liberty. You cannot strip people of their right to property and still call yourself a democracy. This is of course not to mention that all socialist regimes have been authoritarian hellholes whose economic plans have wreaked incalculable havoc upon the world and resulted in millions of people's needless deaths. Socialism is just an excuse for authoritarianism that has never nor will ever accomplish the goals it sets for itself.




So, anti-socialists of NationStates, here are a few questions:
  1. Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country?
  2. Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up?
  3. At what point is armed resistance against socialism called for?


I knew it! I had a feeling an anti-socialist thread would emerge. Sorry for clogging up space and not contributing anything to the conversation. Have a nice day!
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Empirical Switzerland
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Ex-Nation

Postby Empirical Switzerland » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:57 pm

There are a lot of leftists on Nationstates, so I expect this to be a really toxic thread...
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Dominioan
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Posts: 1079
Founded: Dec 10, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Dominioan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm

I feel bad for you, kinda. I give 2, maybe 3 hours before all the Marxists in this game come to screech at you.

I guess I should give my opinion as well? I'm not "anti-socialism", per say. I am kind of neutral-skeptical-ish on the whole thing.
Last edited by Dominioan on Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brettenwald
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Brettenwald » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm

Empirical Switzerland wrote:There are a lot of leftists on Nationstates, so I expect this to be a really toxic thread...

I'm not even a socialist, I'm just here to watch the carnage and maybe prove people wrong if I feel like it. Want some popcorn?
“Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time.”―Neal Stephenson
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Qhevak wrote:Virgin International Incidents war RP enthusiast vs Chad NationStates party RP appreciator.
Yegla Islands wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Israel rocks; China sucks.
Ahhh, so it's selective tolerance of human rights abuses. I see.
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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:59 pm

What if I don't mind the use of illiberal and authoritarian means?
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Albrenia
Post Marshal
 
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Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:01 pm

Brettenwald wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:There are a lot of leftists on Nationstates, so I expect this to be a really toxic thread...

I'm not even a socialist, I'm just here to watch the carnage and maybe prove people wrong if I feel like it. Want some popcorn?


*pulls up a chair*

This gonna be good... assuming it doesn't get locked early anyway.

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The Romanian Confederacy
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Romanian Confederacy » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Let's bet 5,000,000,000 good boy points that this will get shut down in three hours by the corrupt mods.
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-Ra-
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Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Punished UMN wrote:What if I don't mind the use of illiberal and authoritarian means?

Illiberal: "opposed to liberal principles; restricting freedom of thought or behavior."

Authoritarian: "favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom."

Fits socialism quite well I'd say.
Notes on the Left | Leftism ought not be understood as a concrete political ideology, but rather as a counterculture movement whose principal aim is the total overthrow of democratic society.


Beijing delenda est

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Punished UMN
Minister
 
Posts: 2875
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:04 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:What if I don't mind the use of illiberal and authoritarian means?

Illiberal: "opposed to liberal principles; restricting freedom of thought or behavior."

Authoritarian: "favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom."

Fits socialism quite well I'd say.

I'd say I'm a Rawlsian socialist, but I accept that democracy has its limitations and favor a well-ordered authoritarian state to manage a socialist society.
Still lurking in the community, but don't expect much engagement.
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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 859
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:06 pm

Dominioan wrote:I feel bad for you, kinda. I give 2, maybe 3 hours before all the Marxists in this game come to screech at you.

I guess I should give my opinion as well? I'm not "anti-socialism", per say. I am kind of neutral-skeptical-ish on the whole thing.

I think standing up for your opinions is well worth having to deal with keyboard warriors online.
Notes on the Left | Leftism ought not be understood as a concrete political ideology, but rather as a counterculture movement whose principal aim is the total overthrow of democratic society.


Beijing delenda est

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Dominioan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1079
Founded: Dec 10, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Dominioan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:07 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Dominioan wrote:I feel bad for you, kinda. I give 2, maybe 3 hours before all the Marxists in this game come to screech at you.

I guess I should give my opinion as well? I'm not "anti-socialism", per say. I am kind of neutral-skeptical-ish on the whole thing.

I think standing up for your opinions is well worth having to deal with keyboard warriors online.

Then go ahead.
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Parxland
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Founded: Apr 21, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Parxland » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:08 pm

Brettenwald wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:There are a lot of leftists on Nationstates, so I expect this to be a really toxic thread...

I'm not even a socialist, I'm just here to watch the carnage and maybe prove people wrong if I feel like it. Want some popcorn?


All the popcorn is mine, and you can't have any! Anti-socialism thread, change my mind. :p
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Exalted Inquellian State
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Founded: Apr 30, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:11 pm

If I had a dollar for every time communism worked, I'd have one or two. FOr socialism, I'd have one.
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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34693
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:13 pm

Exalted Inquellian State wrote:If I had a dollar for every time communism worked, I'd have one or two. FOr socialism, I'd have one.

Wow. Such comedy, much applause.
read your own damn sources
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New haven america
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Posts: 39925
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:21 pm

Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? No, in fact, the US could use a little more socialism.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? No. And they wouldn't even have to think about the possibility if they passed reforms on healthcare and other social safety nets and taxed the rich and powerful.
At what point is armed resistance against socialism called for? Never.

Any other questions?
Last edited by New haven america on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:22 pm

This looks like a Reddit page honestly.
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Dominioan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1079
Founded: Dec 10, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Dominioan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:24 pm

Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country?
No.

Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up?
Yes, by passing actual reforms to help the poor and working.

At what point is armed resistance against socialism called for?
When they become Soviet-style authoritarian socialists.
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Heres this

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39925
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:25 pm

Genivaria wrote:This looks like a Reddit page honestly.

The irony being that Reddit is super socialist atm.

Seriously, you couldn't go 1 day without seeing Bernie's face on the front page when he was running.
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All Wild Things
Envoy
 
Posts: 243
Founded: Apr 24, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby All Wild Things » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:25 pm

"It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism."

What about publicly owned rail networks, electricity grids, gas pipelines, water and sewerage pipelines, telephone networks, broadband networks. They're all kind of like public roads aren't they? Are these all perfectly compatible with capitalism too?

If the government can choose to give universal healthcare and education, and still not be socialist, can they give out food too? Food is essential for staying healthy. As is exercise. Can we get universal gym memberships and still be capitalists?

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Bienenhalde
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5737
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Bienenhalde » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:25 pm

I don't see the point of being anti-socialist, because the word socialist is so vague and people can't seem to agree what it actually means. But I am strongly anti-communist.
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The Marlborough
Minister
 
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Founded: May 27, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:27 pm

Punished UMN wrote:What if I don't mind the use of illiberal and authoritarian means?

This tbh.
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Albrenia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16244
Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:27 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:I don't see the point of being anti-socialist, because the word socialist is so vague and people can't seem to agree what it actually means. But I am strongly anti-communist.


Yeah, Communism sucks, I'll agree there.

We could all use a little socialism in our lives though.

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