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Marxism II

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Is class the greatest and most important divide in society?

Yes, and it is the only divide which really matters
0
No votes
Yes, but there are also other divides that are somewhat important
2
67%
Yes, but there are also other divides that are very important
1
33%
No, it is a major divide but not the greatest divide
0
No votes
No, it is only one of the largest divides
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 3

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Sanghyeok
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Marxism II

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:03 pm

Previous thread: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=487607

It is a continuation of the last thread. I will again ask the same questions that the previous OP did:

1. Do you believe that Marx's views on the class dichotomy are valid, or reductionist? Some modern authors have claimed that Marx downplayed the role of intersectionality in oppression, but Marx himself wrote about gender roles etc often, including in the Manifesto.
2. Is Marxism—Leninism revisionist, or is it merely an extension of Marx's views?
3. Do you believe that Marx has been vindicated or damned by the more than 170 years since he began to publish his theories?




And my answers:

1. They are valid, but we must not ignore intersectionality. Following only one liberation movement cannot completely free that marginalized group, but neither can only class struggle. Class struggle is the root of many issues, but that does not mean it cannot be solved in part by others. Consider the story from coloured feminists in the US, who found themselves at a quandary: feminist groups fought for white women, and coloured people's groups fought for coloured men. We cannot have a situation where the revolution centres itself about fighting for cishet white male comrades. Therefore, those intersection and identity groups must not be sidelined but fully incorporated into the revolution.

2. It is an "answer" to the "questions" that Marx posed. Marx listed issues and a basic framework for his vision, Marxist-Leninism is the full framework for how to achieve Marx's vision. It is not the only framework, of course- there are many other pathways to Marx's final form of society, but Marxist Leninism is one of them.

3. Vindicated, by far. Class struggle is once again being more and more apparent, and will only continue to do so.




Results of first survey "Is Marxist Leninism revisionist?"
Yes: 7
No: 7
Other: 3

Results of second survey "Is intersectionality necessary with Marxism?"
Yes, and it should be placed on equal footing with class struggle. Other forms of oppression such as religion, race, ethnicity, or gender are just as important to address as class. Therefore, true liberation cannot come only by the form of class struggle and must come through other forms as well: 20
Yes, and it should be one of the main components of our struggle but not our main struggle. Other forms of oppression are important and visible in life, though not as important or obvious as class. Therefore, true liberation requires a large degree of working with other forms of struggle: 18
Yes, but we should make other struggles a minor component, alongside class struggle. Other forms of oppression besides class exist, but liberation can be achieved mostly without other struggles, but they remain important: 4
No, it is a minor component of oppression compared to class struggle, and as a result we can achieve full liberation mostly through class struggle. It is not necessary to have intersectionality, since it doesn't contribute as much: 2
No, it is not at all important. As other forms of oppression are relatively limited compare to class, full liberation can be achieved entirely through class struggle, without regard to other forms of oppression: 7
Last edited by Sanghyeok on Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:53 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Achidyemay
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Postby Achidyemay » Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:51 pm

Huh, I didn't even notice that that thread was a zombie. Cisairse had been posting a bunch of Marxist theory in the US Universal Healthcare thread and I had just assumed he had made the last thread as a spin-off.

I didn't really have anything on topic to add last time
Achidyemay wrote:last time I was talking about the modern state of the Marxist-Leninist body politic on Twitter


Though, now I guess I'll answer the questions, seeing as how it's a new thread and all.

1. Marx is valid, but as my economist professor says, "only frequently enough to be annoying." More abstractly, I think that Marxism is reductionist, class theory is reductionist, only the individual knows what it's about and, even then, hardly. To suggest a broad worker solidarity is to assume that workers have more in common with each other than they do with the managers at their own company, or even that there is a such thing as general laborers in today's world of automation.

2. Lenin was a really good politician, he really did good things for the state. The state was an apparatus that no longer fought for the working man under Lenin. Lenin was a really good politician.

3. Vindicated. Everyone uses his language and his framework, even if better metaphysics have come along since then; it seems Marx/Freud are here to stay.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:11 pm

Marx was good at identifying problems.

His solutions were bog water, however.
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Postby Neanderthaland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:19 pm

bourgeoisie boogaloo?
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Marx was good at identifying problems.

His solutions were bog water not only awesome, but still relevant after over 200 years, however.

Fixed it.
Last edited by Cordel One on Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:06 pm

Cordel One wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Marx was good at identifying problems.

His solutions were bog water not only awesome, but still relevant after over 200 years, however.

Fixed it.


Communism has failed every time its been tried. Communists would argue thats because those communistic attempts weren't true communism, I ask you then why hasn't anyone tried true communism? Well the answer is simple, because it doesn't work.
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Eurasies
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Postby Eurasies » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:10 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Marx was good at identifying problems.

His solutions were bog water, however.

This is so true
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Eurasies
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Postby Eurasies » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:11 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Fixed it.


Communism has failed every time its been tried. Communists would argue thats because those communistic attempts weren't true communism, I ask you then why hasn't anyone tried true communism? Well the answer is simple, because it doesn't work.

Well, according to the leftists with whom I have argued several times, true communism cannot be applied because it is impossible (utopian)
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Eurasies
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Postby Eurasies » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:12 pm

I think liberals and conservatives shouldn't be here
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:12 pm

I'd say Marx views on class, economy, and society are valid and should be applied, with the goal of eventually establishing a stateless, moneyless society.

In the countries I dislike.

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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:
Communism has failed every time its been tried. Communists would argue thats because those communistic attempts weren't true communism, I ask you then why hasn't anyone tried true communism? Well the answer is simple, because it doesn't work.

Well, according to the leftists with whom I have argued several times, true communism cannot be applied because it is impossible (utopian)


Its too vulnerable to corruption, the premise is you give up all your personal economic freedoms for more social mobility but then whatever institute that handles that transfer of power ends up picking who can be rich. And they tend to pick themselves.
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:41 am

As someone who does vote for a Marxist Party, I do agree with Marx that modern industrial society is clearly a struggle between different classes and that elements of class struggle can be seen in earlier centuries leading up to the modern age. There isn't much of a choice at this point except between capitalism and socialism, and the former is killing the planet and requires enslaving millions of people in order to provide First World countries with material goods, making the latter the only real solution.

But I disagree with Marx's teleological view about socialism being a predetermined outcome of class conflict or his reductionist views of religion as being an opium of the masses which makes the common people blind to class struggle. An overtly materialist view of history has the same flaws as an overtly spiritual one and runs the risk of reducing the beautiful creations of human culture to nothing more than mechanized bourgeois transactions that's the end result of the same capitalism that socialism rails against.

Marxist-Leninism is a valid interpretation of socialism that has shown mixed results with the most positive examples being Vietnam and Cuba.
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Postby Eurasies » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:46 am

Suriyanakhon wrote:Marxist-Leninism is a valid interpretation of socialism that has shown mixed results with the most positive examples being Vietnam and Cuba.

Cuba?, seriously?

Do you at least know how is the quality of life in Cuba?

No, wait, I know what you'll say, like all leftists, you'll say it's America's fault

I don't feel like arguing, but I can refute that the Cuban model disaster is not entirely the United States' fault.

But like all leftists, you probably don't accept the failure of almost all countries that have applied socialism.
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Postby Picairn » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:58 am

Suriyanakhon wrote:Marxist-Leninism is a valid interpretation of socialism that has shown mixed results with the most positive examples being Vietnam and Cuba.

Vietnam abandoned the socialist economy in 1986 under Renovation.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:33 am

Nevertopia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Fixed it.


Communism has failed every time its been tried. Communists would argue thats because those communistic attempts weren't true communism, I ask you then why hasn't anyone tried true communism? Well the answer is simple, because it doesn't work.

Geez, are we still beating this dead horse? Let me guess, you're going to talk about Venezuela.
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:34 am

Nevertopia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Fixed it.


Communism has failed every time its been tried. Communists would argue thats because those communistic attempts weren't true communism, I ask you then why hasn't anyone tried true communism? Well the answer is simple, because it doesn't work.


Back to the old reliable Refutations for Overused Talking Points factbook
[box]Communism is evil and kills people
Waving hammers and sickles around doesn't make you communist. It's only possible to be communist if you follow communist principles. This includes statelessness, moneyless, classlessness, and decentralization. For this reason, we can rule out China, the Soviet Union, North Korea and the like as being communist. It is revisionist to claim they are communist when their entire structure differs from communist principles. For further reading, see here. While most communes were wiped out by NATO, Comintern, or Operation Condor, below are some links to the best examples of successful communist movements.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:39 am

Cordel One wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:
Communism has failed every time its been tried. Communists would argue thats because those communistic attempts weren't true communism, I ask you then why hasn't anyone tried true communism? Well the answer is simple, because it doesn't work.


Back to the old reliable Refutations for Overused Talking Points factbook
[box]Communism is evil and kills people
Waving hammers and sickles around doesn't make you communist. It's only possible to be communist if you follow communist principles. This includes statelessness, moneyless, classlessness, and decentralization. For this reason, we can rule out China, the Soviet Union, North Korea and the like as being communist. It is revisionist to claim they are communist when their entire structure differs from communist principles. For further reading, see here. While most communes were wiped out by NATO, Comintern, or Operation Condor, below are some links to the best examples of successful communist movements.
Current:
EZLN
Honorable Mentions:
Paris Commune
Revolutionary Catalonia

Sorry, but I beg to differ. While I certainly would rule out Juche, I without a doubt oppose your claims on statelessness and decentralization. While it is an end goal of higher stage communism to abolish the state, it is simply impossible to do so immediately, and the early Soviet Union (during it's Leninist beginnings) as well as other communist revolutions, knew the importance of building a proper framework before the abolition of the state. Unfortunately, it never came to pass, and such attempts were hijacked, as we can see from China, Vietnam, the USSR, and others.
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:53 am

Cordel One wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:
Communism has failed every time its been tried. Communists would argue thats because those communistic attempts weren't true communism, I ask you then why hasn't anyone tried true communism? Well the answer is simple, because it doesn't work.


Back to the old reliable Refutations for Overused Talking Points factbook
[box]Communism is evil and kills people
Waving hammers and sickles around doesn't make you communist. It's only possible to be communist if you follow communist principles. This includes statelessness, moneyless, classlessness, and decentralization. For this reason, we can rule out China, the Soviet Union, North Korea and the like as being communist. It is revisionist to claim they are communist when their entire structure differs from communist principles. For further reading, see here. While most communes were wiped out by NATO, Comintern, or Operation Condor, below are some links to the best examples of successful communist movements.
Current:
EZLN
Honorable Mentions:
Paris Commune
Revolutionary Catalonia


I would disagree with your argument that moneylessness and statelessness is necessary for communism in the early stages- and I would claim that Lenin's USSR was certainly on the right track, and hardly revisionist.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:07 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Cordel One wrote:
Back to the old reliable Refutations for Overused Talking Points factbook
[box]Communism is evil and kills people
Waving hammers and sickles around doesn't make you communist. It's only possible to be communist if you follow communist principles. This includes statelessness, moneyless, classlessness, and decentralization. For this reason, we can rule out China, the Soviet Union, North Korea and the like as being communist. It is revisionist to claim they are communist when their entire structure differs from communist principles. For further reading, see here. While most communes were wiped out by NATO, Comintern, or Operation Condor, below are some links to the best examples of successful communist movements.
Current:
EZLN
Honorable Mentions:
Paris Commune
Revolutionary Catalonia


I would disagree with your argument that moneylessness and statelessness is necessary for communism in the early stages- and I would claim that Lenin's USSR was certainly on the right track, and hardly revisionist.

I agree. Things did decline though.
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:01 pm

Cordel One wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:
Communism has failed every time its been tried. Communists would argue thats because those communistic attempts weren't true communism, I ask you then why hasn't anyone tried true communism? Well the answer is simple, because it doesn't work.


Back to the old reliable Refutations for Overused Talking Points factbook
[box]Communism is evil and kills people
Waving hammers and sickles around doesn't make you communist. It's only possible to be communist if you follow communist principles. This includes statelessness, moneyless, classlessness, and decentralization. For this reason, we can rule out China, the Soviet Union, North Korea and the like as being communist. It is revisionist to claim they are communist when their entire structure differs from communist principles. For further reading, see here. While most communes were wiped out by NATO, Comintern, or Operation Condor, below are some links to the best examples of successful communist movements.
Current:
EZLN
Honorable Mentions:
Paris Commune
Revolutionary Catalonia


i rest my case.
Last edited by Nevertopia on Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Communism has failed every time its been tried.
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Eurasies
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Capitalizt

Postby Eurasies » Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:04 pm

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Let me guess, you're going to talk about Venezuela.

Do you want to talk about Venezuela with someone from Venezuela?
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:31 pm

Eurasies wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Let me guess, you're going to talk about Venezuela.

Do you want to talk about Venezuela with someone from Venezuela?

:bow:

Why communism failed.
Why it fails every time.
Why it will always fail.
Last edited by Nevertopia on Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Communism has failed every time its been tried.
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Cordel One
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cordel One » Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:29 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:
Back to the old reliable Refutations for Overused Talking Points factbook
[box]Communism is evil and kills people
Waving hammers and sickles around doesn't make you communist. It's only possible to be communist if you follow communist principles. This includes statelessness, moneyless, classlessness, and decentralization. For this reason, we can rule out China, the Soviet Union, North Korea and the like as being communist. It is revisionist to claim they are communist when their entire structure differs from communist principles. For further reading, see here. While most communes were wiped out by NATO, Comintern, or Operation Condor, below are some links to the best examples of successful communist movements.
Current:
EZLN
Honorable Mentions:
Paris Commune
Revolutionary Catalonia


i rest my case.

I can bold words too, I can even put the words in different colors. You're still being revisionist and you still lack a solid point.
Nevertopia wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Do you want to talk about Venezuela with someone from Venezuela?

:bow:

Why communism failed.
Why it fails every time.
Why it will always fail.

Two sites I've never heard of and a billionaire lobby. Great sources you got there.
Last edited by Cordel One on Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eurasies
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Capitalizt

Postby Eurasies » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:10 pm

Cordel One wrote:

Two sites I've never heard of and a billionaire lobby. Great sources you got there.

This statement makes me believe that you do have a good source of information that proves otherwise, right?
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:11 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Two sites I've never heard of and a billionaire lobby. Great sources you got there.

This statement makes me believe that you do have a good source of information that proves otherwise, right?

I gave my argument, directly linking communist theory and some of the more notable successful communes. You'll see it if you scroll up, it's the paragraph that Nevertopia bolded in several places because they thought they were making a point.
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Pro: leftism, neozapatism. communism, anarchism, Marxism, antifascism, choice, the environment, LGBTQ rights, minority rights, direct democracy, universal healthcare, open borders, labor unions, debating, my comrades

Anti: rightism, fascism, capitalism, liberalism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, bourgeoisie, the police, military industrial complex, imperialism, USA, PRC, overused anti-communist talking points
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