California to house transgender inmates by gender identity

[Ifreann]

It's good that California is accepting that trans women are women and trans men are men, but it would be even better if they stopped having prisons at all.

---

I hate testosterone like any other self respecting tran, but it is not a monster drug that turns you into a sex fiend. Yes, it has effects on libido and mood. I know. But, proper socialization is key, and hell, under conventional gender roles, it is manly to be aggressive, to be a man is to be aggressive under that model. It's nurture than nature most of the time. Gender roles have overstated the prowess of androgenic (or hormonally biologically male in lay terms) bodies.

It may not be a monster drug that inherently makes you a rapist, but it definitely does increase aggression when you let it fester for too long. And I'm not really sure socialization is going to be all that effective at stopping it. As Ian Malcom from Jurassic Park said, "Life finds a way."

If you look through the thread you will see, that trans prisoners, especially trans female prisoners wrongly placed in men's prisons, are almost always the victims

That is true, and it is something that needs to be dealt with. I think the best bet is to have micro-prisons exclusively for trans people. That way they can be kept and their needs can be met more effectively.

What are you talking about, "let it fester for too long"? The way you're talking about testosterone it sounds like you think that a person's testosterone levels will steadily increase unless they have sex, which will presumably use up the testosterone and lower the amount in their body. And that's not remotely how it works.

[Zandoria]

Remember the plan Lex Luther had in the superman movie to destroy most of california? Doesn't seem like a bad Idea now.

[Nuroblav]

It's good that California is accepting that trans women are women and trans men are men, but it would be even better if they stopped having prisons at all.

^^This. On a side note relating to the last thing you said, I have doubts as to whether prisons can actually be got rid of, although it would definitely be an ideal. Even then, their use does need to be minimised, and conditions improved (if they suck at the moment).

[Ethel mermania]

Remember the plan Lex Luther had in the superman movie to destroy most of california? Doesn't seem like a bad Idea now.

Only if you own lots of land in barstow

[Des-Bal]

We could ask the prisoner themselves what they want.

Have Male only, female only and gender neutral prisons.
And see where they want to go.

Prisons should be rehabilitation centres, not punishment camps.
Prisoners who get a healthy balanced diet will stay out of prison 2x more often than "crappy food fed" prisoners.
Even better when you have taught prisoners skills with which they can earn a living outside.

It may sound strange, but if you treat prisoners humanely, they behave better. Both in the prison and afterwards outside.

I'd much prefer women's prison. Being physically superior to almost every other inmate eliminates like half of the general concerns about being in prison. I mean it would probably suck for the women, especially if whatever snap I underwent that led me down this dark path was more hammer killing than civil disobedience. I'd get a face tattoo and slap people around to jack their commissary while yelling "welcome to hell, the path to which was paved with good intentions!" or "It is biologically unfair that any of you are in this situation!" or "Any attempt to analyze whether this is safe or logical is transphobic!"

[Ifreann]

Remember the plan Lex Luther had in the superman movie to destroy most of california? Doesn't seem like a bad Idea now.

Pretty extreme reaction.

[Cekoviu]

Remember the plan Lex Luther had in the superman movie to destroy most of california? Doesn't seem like a bad Idea now.

imagine being so violent and bigoted that this is the first thought that comes to your mind

[Broader Confederate States]

Remember the plan Lex Luther had in the superman movie to destroy most of california? Doesn't seem like a bad Idea now.

imagine being so violent and bigoted that this is the first thought that comes to your mind

i don't like this place but even i would need a better justification than that

[Punished UMN]

How about we make prisons in-general safer too while we're at it?

[Vassenor]

How about we make prisons in-general safer too while we're at it?

Because that would involve not starting moral panics. Some people apparently don't like that.

[Cordel One]

The countries with the lowest crime rates focus their prisons on rehabilitation, not punishment. Accepting trans people is awesome, but we should be doing more.

Remember the plan Lex Luther had in the superman movie to destroy most of california? Doesn't seem like a bad Idea now.

Wow, you must be so edgy. Eyeroll.

[Loben III]

i foresee no consequences of any type, for any reason, at all.

for the prison environment is a very tolerant place.

[Cekoviu]

How about we make prisons in-general safer too while we're at it?

silly umn, we need to abolish prisons and replace them with 'angin, not make them "safer"!

[Greed and Death]

How about we make prisons in-general safer too while we're at it?

I can't profit off that.

[North American Imperial State]

How about we make prisons in-general safer too while we're at it?

silly umn, we need to abolish prisons and replace them with 'angin, not make them "safer"!

Yer sure....

[Wallenburg]

Based, epic, and anti prison abuse. Wouldn't have gotten this with Harris as AG.

[Ethel mermania]

How about we make prisons in-general safer too while we're at it?

I can't profit off that.

You are just not thinking out of the box.

[Neanderthaland]

So we're doing the moral panic thing again because an element of society no-longer treats trans people as icky?

Its not about trans people its about biological males convicted of violent crimes being shoved with biological females.

Somehow I suspect those biological males are at more risk of abuse then the biological females they're imprisoned with.

[Zandoria]

Remember the plan Lex Luther had in the superman movie to destroy most of california? Doesn't seem like a bad Idea now.

imagine being so violent and bigoted that this is the first thought that comes to your mind

I'm not violent and bigoted you moron. It was a joke okay or are jokes banned now.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

How about we make prisons in-general safer too while we're at it?

I can't profit off that.

Are you sure the law was a good career choice?

Prisoners being allowed to sue the prison for every bad thing that happens to them?
You'd have so much business you could set up shop INSIDE the prison!

[Nobel Hobos 2]

What the hell happened these last few days? A bus-crash on the way back from a field trip in a mosquito-ridden swamp, to the juvenile prison, and by some quirk of the nearest wireless the only site they can get through to is Nationstates?

Phew, at least they're thinning out now. Batteries going out?

[Lamoni]

imagine being so violent and bigoted that this is the first thought that comes to your mind

I'm not violent and bigoted you moron. It was a joke okay or are jokes banned now.

Personal insults such as "moron," are not acceptable on these forums. Knock it off.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't see much reason for prison segregation when it comes to non-violent criminals.

When it comes to violent ones this can be open to discussion and should be evaluated on an individual basis, considering the safety of all prisoners and the best way to minimize the likelihood of violence. A transwoman with a history of sex crimes against women should not be placed with cis women. So it goes with transmen. There is however no reason to assume someone who is not a sex offender will become one when placed in prison.

Dependent on the data, if it can be shown that people who rape the opposite sex rape their own sex when that's all that's available, i'd extend this principle in general and suggest seperate units for sex offenders. If that cannot be shown however then sex offenders should not be placed in proximity to their victims of choice.

This does not however entail moving a transwoman to a mens prison. It also should apply to cis women who sexually assault other women, and cis men who do the same.

The argument that prisoners may be in danger of sexual assault is one that deserves serious consideration, but the argument being advanced is not consistent and is frankly an incoherent smokescreen for transphobia and misandry. There is no reason to treat transpersons as fundamentally different in character than other persons.

Either sexual offences in prison require a response, or they don't. You can't decide you're alright with cis people raping eachother but draw the line at trans people doing it. Or you could, if you decide there's something fundamentally evil about heterosexual sex that makes it more egregious than homosexual sex. Which...

Um? Do these people even understand the implications of their argument?

"We don't mind if people with penises rape other people with penises, or people with pussy's do the same, but we draw the line at heterosexual relations in prisons!".

K? Is this that nefarious gay agenda i've heard so much about?

In all seriousness the reason for the inconsistency, the reason for the focus on transwomen raping cis women while we don't discuss transmen or indeed how cis women are more likely to rape eachother in prison than cis men are, is the demonization of male sexuality, in this case in conjunction with transphobia. (Much like it's Islamophobia if someone chucks a rock at a Sikh for wearing a turban and thus looking "A bit muslim", Sikhs are victimized by the erasure of their existence but the fundamental violence is directed at muslims. In this case, transwomen are denied as existing but the fundamental violence and hatred is directed at men.).


Finally, for both sexes, the overwhelming majority of sexual crimes against prisoners is done by guards, not other inmates.

Male prisoners are drastically more likely to be raped by a female guard than a male guard (In 2nd place) or a male prisoner. Female prisoners are drastically more likely to be raped by a male guard than a female guard (in 2nd place) or female prisoner.

If we're going to discuss "Let's not put men in with the women", then we should probably START that discussion with; "Let's ban male guards from female prisons and female guards from male prisons".

[Ostroeuropa]

Given the known problems in the culture of male-only jails there are likely to be issues both with non-sexual assaults, outright rape and with transwomen feeling threatened into "relationships" trading "services" for protection if they are placed there.

How many dozen assaulted trans women are equivalent in value to one assaulted cis woman?

Male prisoners are less likely to rape other prisoners than female prisoners are to rape other prisoners. It's ignored because of a variety of reasons.

Firstly there's far less women prisoners, so that out of any given 100 women prisoners there's more raping their fellow inmates than any given 100 men prisoners is often obscured.

...while it is often assumed that inmate-on-inmate sexual assault comprises men victimizing men, the survey found that women state prisoners were more than three times as likely to experience sexual victimization perpetrated by women inmates (13.7 percent) than were men to be victimized by other male inmates (4.2 percent) (Beck et al., 2013).

Secondly it doesn't suit feminist organizations and their portrayal of rape as a patriarchal thing that men do to women, the demonization of male sexuality and so on, and would call into question the stats they have peddled for decades to acknowledge it as well as their gaslighting over how they're trying to "end the rape of men and care about them too, because men shouldn't be raping men either". (I.E, casting rape as a male perpetrated phenomena and asserting that this demonization of men is for mens own good).
Feminists sensitive to modern resistance to their hate movement have shifted away from that dynamic but nonetheless, since it is a hate movement and they have not fundamentally rejected the framework and way it shapes their outlook, are too focused on critizing men, patriarchy and so on, to examine why women do these things to eachother at higher rates. With them it's a "I can acknowledge this is happening, I just care more about men being bad than women being bad and will devote my energy to that while lying to myself that i'm focused on womens issues, not hating men, even though i focus on the womens issues that allow me to hate men and avoid ones where I have to criticize women.", even if they don't admit that to themselves. So you've got two camps, those who deny it's happening and those who accept it but do nothing about it. They lie to themselves that it's "Okay for me to focus on women being raped", but that's not what they're doing. Like their forebears, they focus on Men Who Rape. Fundamentally their emotional drive is not caring about female rape victims, it's about hating male rapists.

Thirdly it doesn't suit traditionalist narratives that ignore female sexuality as existing at all.

[Greed and Death]

I can't profit off that.

You are just not thinking out of the box.

Fine prisoners of all genders will be allowed to work my marijuana plantation.

A pity people with criminal backgrounds aren't allowed to work in the industry aside from inmate work programs. So many skills they learn that will be useless once they get out.