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[Q] So… what exactly is going on?

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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Aureumterra III
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[Q] So… what exactly is going on?

Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:01 am

Now that my "ban" is over, I have many questions for the mods…
I’ll start from the beginning

This is the post that got my main nation deleted
And I believe this is the ban?
BTW, I have filed a GHR on this matter but haven’t gotten a reply

So, apparently, Kexholm and Karelia was banned for 3 days, a player I have no connection to. If you see the founding dates, my main nation was founded in 2017, while theirs (which is now deleted) was founded in 2020. I do understand IP addresses get mixed up with shared nations, which I have used, but as far as my knowledge goes, the banned player in question has never had access to any of these.

Iron Front Founder is my most recently used shared nation, the only people who have access to it, as far as my knowledge goes, are a few nations in the region Iron Front. The other shared nation I ceased to exist long before Kexholm and Karelia was even founded, which was Acruia.

Additionally, I have posted a list of all the puppets I have used before. The question is, what methods are used to figure out puppet accounts, and why have I been "punished" for something I never did? My main nation, Aureumterra, which was two years old and no history of any bans, was all of a sudden deleted for seemingly no reason…?
Last edited by Aureumterra III on Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:13 am

Aureumterra III wrote:My main nation, Aureumterra, which was two years old and no history of any bans, was all of a sudden deleted for seemingly no reason…?

If posting past ban is spotted then it is a DEAT for both the nation with the ban and the nation being used to post past ban.

I assume you have lodged an appeal, since you are maintaining that you have no connection with the second nation. Then again if you have appealed, the fact that you have posted this seems to indicate the Mods haven't responded to the appeal yet.
Last edited by The New California Republic on Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Aureumterra III
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Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:32 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:My main nation, Aureumterra, which was two years old and no history of any bans, was all of a sudden deleted for seemingly no reason…?

If posting past ban is spotted then it is a DEAT for both the nation with the ban and the nation being used to post past ban.

I assume you have lodged an appeal, since you are maintaining that you have no connection with the second nation. Then again if you have appealed, the fact that you have posted this seems to indicate the Mods haven't responded to the appeal yet.

Yes, I have filed a GHR
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:34 am

Aureumterra III wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:If posting past ban is spotted then it is a DEAT for both the nation with the ban and the nation being used to post past ban.

I assume you have lodged an appeal, since you are maintaining that you have no connection with the second nation. Then again if you have appealed, the fact that you have posted this seems to indicate the Mods haven't responded to the appeal yet.

Yes, I have filed a GHR

It can take a few weeks to get a reply, since some Mods unconnected to the original ruling or rulings need to examine it.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Postby Vistulange » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:17 am

Aureumterra III wrote:what methods are used to figure out puppet accounts

You do realise you are very unlikely to get a comprehensive response to this, yes? Since I'd assume it's an integral part of preventing WA multi-ing.
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Aureumterra III
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Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:29 am

Vistulange wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:what methods are used to figure out puppet accounts

You do realise you are very unlikely to get a comprehensive response to this, yes? Since I'd assume it's an integral part of preventing WA multi-ing.

I realize that, I’m not asking for an in depth comprehensive methodology, just what would have led them to believe that this random unrelated nation was the same player as me

From what I have seen from their posts, they seem to be American
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Postby Mathuvan Union » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:30 am

Aureumterra III wrote:
Vistulange wrote:You do realise you are very unlikely to get a comprehensive response to this, yes? Since I'd assume it's an integral part of preventing WA multi-ing.

I realize that, I’m not asking for an in depth comprehensive methodology, just what would have led them to believe that this random unrelated nation was the same player as me

From what I have seen from their posts, they seem to be American

you realise if you're still under forum ban this nation will get DEAT'd?
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Minskiev
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Postby Minskiev » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:32 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:I realize that, I’m not asking for an in depth comprehensive methodology, just what would have led them to believe that this random unrelated nation was the same player as me

From what I have seen from their posts, they seem to be American

you realise if you're still under forum ban this nation will get DEAT'd?


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Postby Mathuvan Union » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:33 am

Minskiev wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:you realise if you're still under forum ban this nation will get DEAT'd?


Opening sentence: ‘Now that my forum ban is over’.

:o :o :o :o :o :o
I completely missed that
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Aureumterra III
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Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:28 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:I realize that, I’m not asking for an in depth comprehensive methodology, just what would have led them to believe that this random unrelated nation was the same player as me

From what I have seen from their posts, they seem to be American

you realise if you're still under forum ban this nation will get DEAT'd?

I wasn’t under a ban in the first place, but the nation that was has had its ban lifted today. I couldn’t care less about this particular nation, my main nation, with two years of posts and multiple factbooks (and not a single ban) has been deleted over what I assume is an IP address mix up
Last edited by Aureumterra III on Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:51 am

Founding dates are only just that. Puppets will usually have a different date then the master account.

They have many methods to identify puppets. You aren’t going to get a straight answer as why would they want to assist puppets from evading detection? Seriously; I was a mod at a game company. “It was a coincidence we had the same IP” didn’t fly back then. Never mind there were other checks just to be sure.

The GHR process is not a “same day” setup. Remember the mods are volunteers and they are going to discuss it and double check the claims.

Violations are not limited to the accounts. They go to the player. Think about it. I can have a master account and create trolling puppets. Only punishing the puppet does not solve the problem.

I would wait for the result of the GHR. May I suggest something? Well obviously I am not going to wait. A public debate after submitting your GHR will not help your cause.
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Aureumterra III
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Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:16 am

The Black Forrest wrote:Founding dates are only just that. Puppets will usually have a different date then the master account.

They have many methods to identify puppets. You aren’t going to get a straight answer as why would they want to assist puppets from evading detection? Seriously; I was a mod at a game company. “It was a coincidence we had the same IP” didn’t fly back then. Never mind there were other checks just to be sure.

The GHR process is not a “same day” setup. Remember the mods are volunteers and they are going to discuss it and double check the claims.

Violations are not limited to the accounts. They go to the player. Think about it. I can have a master account and create trolling puppets. Only punishing the puppet does not solve the problem.

I would wait for the result of the GHR. May I suggest something? Well obviously I am not going to wait. A public debate after submitting your GHR will not help your cause.

I’m not claiming “It was a coincidence we had the same IP” at all, I’m saying, because of my use of shared nations, there could have been an IP address mix up. Obviously no two devices can have the same IP address, but having used multiple shared nations, there is a possibility of a mix up
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Aureumterra III
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Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:39 am

I do have to point out, though, that as far as my knowledge goes, Kexholm and Karelia (the player who controls them, not the nation) has never used any of the shared nation’s I’ve used
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:41 am

Aureumterra III wrote:I do have to point out, though, that as far as my knowledge goes, Kexholm and Karelia (the player who controls them, not the nation) has never used any of the shared nation’s I’ve used


So you don't actually know then. Yeah. There's the problem.

Why are you even sharing nations in the first place.

You don't know where people's dirty fingers have been.
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Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:44 am

The Rich Port wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:I do have to point out, though, that as far as my knowledge goes, Kexholm and Karelia (the player who controls them, not the nation) has never used any of the shared nation’s I’ve used


So you don't actually know then. Yeah. There's the problem.

Why are you even sharing nations in the first place.

You don't know where people's dirty fingers have been.

Iron Front Founder is, as you can assume, for regional management

The others in the past have been for RP
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:45 am

Aureumterra III wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
So you don't actually know then. Yeah. There's the problem.

Why are you even sharing nations in the first place.

You don't know where people's dirty fingers have been.

Iron Front Founder is, as you can assume, for regional management

The others in the past have been for RP


So you're not sharing them with other players then?

What does nation sharing mean then, usually that's what that means.
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Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:46 am

The Rich Port wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:Iron Front Founder is, as you can assume, for regional management

The others in the past have been for RP


So you're not sharing them with other players then?

What does nation sharing mean then, usually that's what that means.

No, I am… other players are/have used those. Where did you get that from?

As I posted, Iron Front Founder is for regional management purposes
Last edited by Aureumterra III on Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:49 am

Aureumterra III wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
So you're not sharing them with other players then?

What does nation sharing mean then, usually that's what that means.

No, I am… other players are/have used those. Where did you get that from?


=_= You shouldn't do that. Nobody now knows, yourself included, who accessed your nations to post past ban. It could easily have been one of Kexholm's puppets that also used your nations.
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Aureumterra III
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Postby Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:51 am

The Rich Port wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:No, I am… other players are/have used those. Where did you get that from?


=_= You shouldn't do that. Nobody now knows, yourself included, who accessed your nations to post past ban. It could easily have been one of Kexholm's puppets that also used your nations.

No no no, I know everyone who has accessed all of my shared nations. Iron Front Founder is for regional management, which is why it is shared between me, the elected president of the region, and the original founder Steppe Khanate, as well as two officers who have since left (none of them related to K&K)
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Postby Steppe Khanate » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:55 am

The Rich Port wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:No, I am… other players are/have used those. Where did you get that from?


=_= You shouldn't do that. Nobody now knows, yourself included, who accessed your nations to post past ban. It could easily have been one of Kexholm's puppets that also used your nations.

Shared nations aren’t public. You can’t just randomly log in to one, that’s not how it works.

Only a select few people, including me, Aureumterra, Bonaferia, and a few others have the password to Iron Front Founder
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:56 am

Aureumterra III wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
=_= You shouldn't do that. Nobody now knows, yourself included, who accessed your nations to post past ban. It could easily have been one of Kexholm's puppets that also used your nations.

No no no, I know everyone who has accessed all of my shared nations. Iron Front Founder is for regional management, which is why it is shared between me, the elected president of the region, and the original founder Steppe Khanate, as well as two officers who have since left (none of them related to K&K)

The player behind Kexholm and Karelia probably has accessed your shared accounts, but Kexholm and Karelia is just a puppet they had that you did not know about. Not everyone is upfront about all their puppets or their warning history, and thanks to the nation sharing, moderation thinks you're the same player. Not one, but two mods came to that conclusion; your warning history is now shared, like it or not.
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Kexholm Karelia
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Postby Kexholm Karelia » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:02 am

Lol I’m not some anonymous hacker going around accessing people’s nations
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:02 am

Steppe Khanate wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
=_= You shouldn't do that. Nobody now knows, yourself included, who accessed your nations to post past ban. It could easily have been one of Kexholm's puppets that also used your nations.

Shared nations aren’t public. You can’t just randomly log in to one, that’s not how it works.

Only a select few people, including me, Aureumterra, Bonaferia, and a few others have the password to Iron Front Founder

Kexholm and Karelia may have been the puppet of one of the people you've listed or the "few others."
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:04 am

Kexholm Karelia wrote:Lol I’m not some anonymous hacker going around accessing people’s nations

No, you're probably someone they trust who is posting with a puppet.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:28 am

In case people didn’t check DA RULZ!

Regarding Sharing Accounts
What is "sharing accounts"?
As far as moderation is concerned, a nation account is shared if more than one person has accessed it. Whether a nation is being used by a group of players, or a nation is given permanently from Player A to Player B, both instances are shared.

Is sharing nations among multiple players allowed?
It is allowed, but moderation's stance on the act is to avoid it as an unnecessary risk. There are no "safe" ways to share a nation, only ways that are "slightly less unsafe."

What are the risks?
Personally Identifying Info - If you do not scrub your PII from the nation before handing it off, the recipient may be able to use that very same tool to see your personally identifying information, including your IP and email address! Anyone with access to that nation (and has that nation's password) can access the PII report! NOTE: Performing a PII scrub prior to transfer of a nation DOES NOT REMOVE ANY OF THE OTHER RISKS!

WA warnings - If you're sharing around a WA member nation while one or more people with access to it also maintain WA accounts, you run a greater risk of getting caught on the WA cheatscanner.

Warning history - If you share a nation that has a moderation warning history, you risk having that history associated with you.

Bans/DEATs/DOSes - Sharing nations around muddies the moderation trail and increases the risk of one or more players being at risk for moderation enforcement they didn't actually earn. Although moderation will do what we can to avoid this confusion, if players share nations around enough, it truly becomes almost impossible to definitively tell who has control of what.

Nation theft - Fact is, the more people have access to a nation, the less secure it is. If one of the owners hijacks that shared account, there will be nothing moderation can do to help the others recover it.

Outright malice - If one person with access to shared account goes on a rulebreaking rampage, everyone with access to that account risks having disciplinary actions levied against them, as the system will have trouble telling Player A from Player B when they both login to Nation X regularly.

So why don't you ban it?

Enforcing such a ban would be impractical at best. Hence it falls under the same general umbrella of "player responsibility" as things like your password security, caution about sharing computers or using publicly accessible ones, and so on. Players can share, and will share, and thus they accept the risks that go with it.
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*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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