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[DRAFT #2] Repeal SC#325 "Liberate Syria"

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Tinhampton
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[DRAFT #2] Repeal SC#325 "Liberate Syria"

Postby Tinhampton » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:31 pm

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Here's a microrepeal just in case Kuriko's tag:delegates telegram doesn't have the intended effect...
0745 BST, 22-Sep-2020: Hello there, Honeydewistania. So, yeah - that happened... and now this is too
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Repeal "Liberate Syria"
A resolution to repeal unnecessarily passed legislation.
Category: Repeal
Resolution: SC#325
Proposed by: Tinhampton

Security Council Resolution #325 “Liberate Syria” shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

THE SECURITY COUNCIL:

AWARE that, shortly after its Liberation, Syria's occupiers were indeed overthrown by a twenty-strong group of "defender forces" which installed Joan dArc (a vassal state of SC#325's author, Kuriko) into its WA Delegacy;

SATISFIED that said defenders are more than capable of continuing to hold Syria in trust for its natives, with or without SC#325 in place; and

BELIEVING that this august body ought not to prolong Syria's Liberation, which was made useless - and, by Kuriko's admission, "no longer needed" - when Airport Manager Services lifted its password shortly before their removal as Delegate:

HEREBY REPEALS SC#325 "Liberate Syria."


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Repeal "Liberate Syria"
A resolution to repeal unnecessarily passed legislation.
Category: Repeal
Resolution: SC#325
Proposed by: Tinhampton

Security Council Resolution #325 “Liberate Syria” shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

THE SECURITY COUNCIL:

NOTING that Airport Manager Services lifted the password on Syria about seven hours before SC#325 passed; and

BELIEVING that this august body ought not to perpetuate a Liberation that its author has admitted is "no longer needed:"

HEREBY REPEALS SC#325 "Liberate Syria."
Last edited by Tinhampton on Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Refuge Isle
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Postby Refuge Isle » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:32 pm

I cannot help but feel that your opportunism is getting the better of you again, Tin.
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Postby Wayneactia » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:37 pm

No. (length: 3 characters.)

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Postby Tinhampton » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:25 pm

Refuge Isle wrote:I cannot help but feel that your opportunism is getting the better of you again, Tin.

With maximal danger comes maximal opportunity. ;)

Wayneactia wrote:No. (length: 3 characters.)

K. (length: 2 characters) :P
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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:43 pm

Nah, currently opposed.
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Postby Tinhampton » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:03 pm

RE Outer Sparta: Noted, LOL.

Liberate Syria has passed with about 52% of the vote. In light of this, I'll probably submit what you see above at some point in the next few days.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:01 pm

Tinhampton wrote:RE Outer Sparta: Noted, LOL.

Liberate Syria has passed with about 52% of the vote. In light of this, I'll probably submit what you see above at some point in the next few days.

Good luck with the 47 words.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:28 pm

Refuge Isle wrote:I cannot help but feel that your opportunism is getting the better of you again, Tin.

I’d agree with that.
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Postby Praeceps » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:45 pm

I see no reason to repeal the liberation.
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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:37 am

Praeceps wrote:I see no reason to repeal the liberation.

I see no reason to have passed the Liberation, particularly given Airport Manager Services' actions in the hours before its passage.

Outer Sparta wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:RE Outer Sparta: Noted, LOL.

Liberate Syria has passed with about 52% of the vote. In light of this, I'll probably submit what you see above at some point in the next few days.

Good luck with the 47 words.

You'll be glad to know it's closer to 110 now - which makes this draft longer than my first ever resolution, Repeal "Liberate Femdom Empire," and about one in every five Historical Resolutions :P
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Postby Honeydewistania » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:40 am

I’d like to serve the defenders’ opinion on this before making mine
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Postby Daytime to Night » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:11 am

There are some instances when an instant repeal is appropriate but this isn't one of them and will probably waste the Security Council's time when there are many advanced proposals that are more worthy of consideration.
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Postby Straona » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:31 am

Praeceps wrote:I see no reason to repeal the liberation.

The liberation wasn’t even necessary because it was a puppet region.

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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:15 pm

Daytime to Night wrote:There are some instances when an instant repeal is appropriate but this isn't one of them and will probably waste the Security Council's time when there are many advanced proposals that are more worthy of consideration.

The only other proposal I'm aware is going to be proposed soon is "Condemn Raionitu" by A Bloodred Moon, who said he planned to go ahead and submit "within the week" last Tuesday, although it's been a week and he hasn't moved yet. In any event, even if I were to submit this immediately - which I won't - this would almost certainly not go to vote until 5am BST on 30th September (after Refuge's Condemn Souls and - quite likely - Makdon's Condemn LKE).
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Postby Refuge Isle » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:30 pm

I'm inclined to agree with Praeceps and NuCa. Although I disagree with it being liberated in the first place, without any native presence, there's no nation at this time that would be qualified to host a refound. Certainly none that would be able to use a refound as a mechanism for solidifying a community.

Functionally, the SC liberated the region and it should therefore stick to it until the circumstances change, or we'll be at square one again. No support from me at the moment.
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Postby Praeceps » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:27 pm

Tin, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you a member of TBH?
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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:07 pm

Praeceps wrote:Tin, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you a member of TBH?

I left at the beginning of July to take up the WA Delegacy of Auctor - which, as you can probably tell, does not look like it has been pillaged by any raiding group, let alone sprinkled with any of the cute hawkies' W H O L E S O M E N E S S :P

Refuge Isle wrote:I'm inclined to agree with Praeceps and NuCa. Although I disagree with it being liberated in the first place, without any native presence, there's no nation at this time that would be qualified to host a refound. Certainly none that would be able to use a refound as a mechanism for solidifying a community.

Functionally, the SC liberated the region and it should therefore stick to it until the circumstances change, or we'll be at square one again. No support from me at the moment.

1. There is a native presence (namely The USA, Glesihastaire, Region of New Syria, and Al-Syria), but Kuriko did not get a response from any of them. The only person who can be realistically described as ever having been a Syrian native who expressed an opinion on the proposal, Nomadic sister of shawnas north africa, was a former ambassador from the United Empire of Islam who resigned from her post five-and-a-half years ago on the basis that the latter region's "abuse towards women must not be ? Of islam values."

2. The circumstances of Syria have changed. Before its Liberation, Syria was controlled by a small party of raiders from Hydra Main Command. After its Liberation, Hydra's raiders were removed by a much larger group of defenders led by Joan dArc/Kuriko - who originally had 19 endorsements but is currently backed up by 53 endorsements. It is not unreasonable to interpret this as being an instance where "the defender forces from multiple defender aligned regions... [have freed] Syria from its current oppressors."
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Postby Refuge Isle » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:16 pm

Tinhampton wrote:1. There is a native presence (namely The USA, Glesihastaire, Region of New Syria, and Al-Syria), but Kuriko did not get a response from any of them. The only person who can be realistically described as ever having been a Syrian native who expressed an opinion on the proposal, Nomadic sister of shawnas north africa, was a former ambassador from the United Empire of Islam who resigned from her post five-and-a-half years ago on the basis that the latter region's "abuse towards women must not be ? Of islam values."

You cannot, on one hand, say that there is a native presence while simultaneously lamenting how they are absent to the point of absurdity. Sure, there are nations in the region. That equates it to any other tagable region kept alive by puppets. But if there weren't any natives last week when we were discussing that the liberation was pointless, there aren't any natives this week either.

Tinhampton wrote:2. The circumstances of Syria have changed. Before its Liberation, Syria was controlled by a small party of raiders from Hydra Main Command. After its Liberation, Hydra's raiders were removed by a much larger group of defenders led by Joan dArc/Kuriko - who originally had 19 endorsements but is currently backed up by 53 endorsements. It is not unreasonable to interpret this as being an instance where "the defender forces from multiple defender aligned regions... [have freed] Syria from its current oppressors."

The angle by which you argue this repeal is not something I take issue with, its the effects that matters. Unless the liberation force wishes to refound the region and community-build there for the next five years, Syria's ultimate stability is going to need to come from players who want to stay there, and that isn't happening today. And more eyes are on this place than ever before now. In effect, the goal of the liberation has yet to be achieved because it would be just as prone to occupation without it.
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:08 am

Refuge Isle wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:1. There is a native presence (namely The USA, Glesihastaire, Region of New Syria, and Al-Syria), but Kuriko did not get a response from any of them. The only person who can be realistically described as ever having been a Syrian native who expressed an opinion on the proposal, Nomadic sister of shawnas north africa, was a former ambassador from the United Empire of Islam who resigned from her post five-and-a-half years ago on the basis that the latter region's "abuse towards women must not be ? Of islam values."

You cannot, on one hand, say that there is a native presence while simultaneously lamenting how they are absent to the point of absurdity. Sure, there are nations in the region. That equates it to any other tagable region kept alive by puppets. But if there weren't any natives last week when we were discussing that the liberation was pointless, there aren't any natives this week either.

Kuriko herself stated that "It seems the natives in the region are just puppets" in the third post on her thread. The four "natives" I referred to earlier are the four nations that both had a longer contiguous tenure and more influence that Airport Manager Services did. You might have a point here tho ;P

Refuge Isle wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:2. The circumstances of Syria have changed. Before its Liberation, Syria was controlled by a small party of raiders from Hydra Main Command. After its Liberation, Hydra's raiders were removed by a much larger group of defenders led by Joan dArc/Kuriko - who originally had 19 endorsements but is currently backed up by 53 endorsements. It is not unreasonable to interpret this as being an instance where "the defender forces from multiple defender aligned regions... [have freed] Syria from its current oppressors."

The angle by which you argue this repeal is not something I take issue with, its the effects that matters. Unless the liberation force wishes to refound the region and community-build there for the next five years, Syria's ultimate stability is going to need to come from players who want to stay there, and that isn't happening today. And more eyes are on this place than ever before now. In effect, the goal of the liberation has yet to be achieved because it would be just as prone to occupation without it.

Firstly, If Syria "would be just as prone to occupation without" a Liberation in place, then there's nothing to lose by repealing SC#325 and then passing a new Liberation if Syria is ever truly threatened again (see also: Boston, The Mountains to the East). Secondly, most regions take a bit less than half a decade to develop :P
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Postby Refuge Isle » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:22 am

Tinhampton wrote:Firstly, If Syria "would be just as prone to occupation without" a Liberation in place, then there's nothing to lose by repealing SC#325 and then passing a new Liberation if Syria is ever truly threatened again (see also: Boston, The Mountains to the East).

I'm only aware of one resolution for each of those. You're saying there have been multiple?

Tinhampton wrote: Secondly, most regions take a bit less than half a decade to develop :P

Indeed. So, as with the other regions you have mentioned, they should remain liberated until the circumstances around their viability changes. As it has not with your two examples, they too, remain liberated.

Perhaps you would have better luck with Greece.
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:33 am

Refuge Isle wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:Firstly, If Syria "would be just as prone to occupation without" a Liberation in place, then there's nothing to lose by repealing SC#325 and then passing a new Liberation if Syria is ever truly threatened again (see also: Boston, The Mountains to the East).

I'm only aware of one resolution for each of those. You're saying there have been multiple?

My point was that both regions, despite being Liberated once, have been subjected to a metric slaniton of invasions each since (full disclosure: I more than happily participated in this year's really massive raid on Boston). Considering the SC's optics - not the raiders', of course :P - it would not look good to add yet another region onto the list of Perennially Tagged Places because "badge + founderless = OOOOOOOOOOH NICE TARGET."

Refuge Isle wrote:
Tinhampton wrote: Secondly, most regions take a bit less than half a decade to develop :P

Indeed. So, as with the other regions you have mentioned, they should remain liberated until the circumstances around their viability changes. As it has not with your two examples, they too, remain liberated.

Perhaps you would have better luck with Greece.

The difference being that New Brussels and Kuriko again did not attempt to convince delegates to vote against those Liberations respectively on the basis that they were superfluous. (Unibot certainly didn't - although Tim, Crystalsummer, Yodle, and all the rest only combined for those refounds in 2017, not 2010.) If Liberate Syria was unnecessary six hours before voting on it finished, it is unnecessary today.
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Postby Wayneactia » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:07 pm

Tinhampton wrote:If Liberate Syria was unnecessary six hours before voting on it finished, it is unnecessary today.

It wasn't necessary to begin with. But the overwhelming majority of the international community thought it was, right up to the moment they realized what a con it actually was. No the deed has been done, and now the liberation can stay. The natives (of which none actually exist), must have begged Kuri for the liberation? They can keep it then.

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Postby Daytime to Night » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:48 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Refuge Isle wrote:I'm only aware of one resolution for each of those. You're saying there have been multiple?

My point was that both regions, despite being Liberated once, have been subjected to a metric slaniton of invasions each since (full disclosure: I more than happily participated in this year's really massive raid on Boston). Considering the SC's optics - not the raiders', of course :P - it would not look good to add yet another region onto the list of Perennially Tagged Places because "badge + founderless = OOOOOOOOOOH NICE TARGET."


Theres nothing stopping communities running a successful region with a liberation still in place. St Abbaddon, Belgium, Christmas, South Pacific, Anarchy - all good examples of that.

Boston and the Mountains to the East (1) aren't raided as much as you suggest and (2) lie late in the update order and end up being 'last chance' raid targets rather than desirable ones (including on the Boston raid you participated in), unlike Syria which lies in the front half/middle of update

The badge definitely doesn't make regions more desirable as a target - probably the opposite. It does protect against the same group coming back at a later date and trying to lock the region away again; ergo, this repeal is pointless and not helpful.
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:22 am

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but there's a precedent for keeping "Liberate Syria."

The very first WA Liberation, "Liberate Belgium" was passed after Belgium had actually been liberated. FRA and co. recovered the password and did a stealth liberation (incidentially I was actually on a school trip in Belgium at the time, so I remember this well - I had to use the hotel computer for updates - it was the 2000s!). The resolution was passed and the Belgian community requested the WA Liberation to remain in place.

Why would Belgium have wanted to remain liberated? Because it makes good sense for any founderless UCR that doesn't want to be passworded. It premptively limits the capacity of invaders to grief a region. Belgium was eventually invaded again by a very, very sizeable TNI-LKE force, and the WA Liberation helped protect the region in advance of any griefing that might have taken place.

Is Syria a likely target for future invasions? I'd think so, yes. Iran, Syria, Greece, Belgium, France etc. etc. they're always targeted. Any RL Name Founderless UCR is at high risk for invasions.
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Postby Wayneactia » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:16 pm

Unibot III wrote:I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but there's a precedent for keeping "Liberate Syria."

The very first WA Liberation, "Liberate Belgium" was passed after Belgium had actually been liberated. FRA and co. recovered the password and did a stealth liberation (incidentially I was actually on a school trip in Belgium at the time, so I remember this well - I had to use the hotel computer for updates - it was the 2000s!). The resolution was passed and the Belgian community requested the WA Liberation to remain in place.

Why would Belgium have wanted to remain liberated? Because it makes good sense for any founderless UCR that doesn't want to be passworded. It premptively limits the capacity of invaders to grief a region. Belgium was eventually invaded again by a very, very sizeable TNI-LKE force, and the WA Liberation helped protect the region in advance of any griefing that might have taken place.

Is Syria a likely target for future invasions? I'd think so, yes. Iran, Syria, Greece, Belgium, France etc. etc. they're always targeted. Any RL Name Founderless UCR is at high risk for invasions.

There is a more basic reason. There is no native population to take care of the region. By repealing the liberation, all it does is give the cadre in control now, the chance to empty the region and refound it.

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