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[ABANDONED] Fully Armed, But Not Fully Operational

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Daarwyrth
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[ABANDONED] Fully Armed, But Not Fully Operational

Postby Daarwyrth » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:43 pm

Credits for this idea go to Jutsa's list of issue ideas on the Got Issues regional board, and a big thank you goes to Valentine Z for preliminary feedback!

CURRENT DRAFT:
[Title] Fully Armed, But Not Fully Operational

[Validity] Has Conscription

[Description] @@RANDOMNAME_1@@ stands at the center of a controversy that has managed to dominate the news cycles for days. Like every other citizen who has come of age, @@HE_1@@ was conscripted into the @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Military. Unlike every other fellow countryman, the @@MAN_1@@ sits in a wheelchair, and is unable to walk.

[Option 1] "Do you expect @@HIM_1@@ to charge at the enemy rolling down the hill on @@HIS_1@@ wheelchair?" smirks @@RANDOMNAME_2@@, who recently left the service, and has quite visibly forsaken any form of physical activity. "You can't have that poor @@MAN_1@@ conscripted into the army, @@HE_1@@'ll be completely useless! In fact, you need to conscript only the most able of bodies from now on. The fittest of the fittest, just like me!" a button on @@HIS_2@@ shirt finally gives out. "Or well, hehe, like I used to be".

[Effect 1] gyms across the nation stand empty and silent

[Option 2] "Frankly, I don't see what the fuss is all about," notes @@RANDOMNAME_1@@ while nimbly moving along a climbing rack with @@HIS_1@@ wheelchair dangling below @@HIM_1@@. "Sure, I may not be able to use my legs, but why should that stop me from serving my country? I won't be able to kill our enemies at the front, but I could still be deployed as logistical support, working behind the scenes to make sure my fellow soldiers make it out alive. Excluding people like me from military service is a waste of potential, @@LEADER@@, and it's time that you changed the rules for a greater @@NAME@@. @@SLOGAN@@!"

[Effect 2] kids reminisce about the days when a mere stomach ache was a reason enough to stay home from school

[Option 3] General @@RANDOMNAME_3@@ rubs @@HIS_3@@ eye after having been the unintentional target of @@RANDOMNAME_2@@'s shirt's button. "Bloody hell, @@HE_2@@ may be out of shape, but @@HIS_2@@ aim certainly isn't! @@LEADER@@, listen, we may have stumbled upon something here. We could implement wheelchairs into our military strategies in a revolutionary way! How you ask? Miniaturized missile launchers and miniguns attached to their frames, baby! Our disabled boys and gals will become unstoppable one man tank units..."

[Effect 3] no one dares to bully the kid on the wheelchair anymore
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:36 am, edited 6 times in total.
The Royal Commonwealth of Daarwyrth

A unified state of constituent duchies on the fictional continent of Geldria, where the monarch is considered the nation's centre of gravity.

Our Leader: Queen Demi Maria I | Our Capital: Daarport | Government type: Unitary semi-constitutional monarchy | Technology level: Post-Modern Tech | Civilization index: 13.71


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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:49 pm

Aren't the character opinions here a little backwards? If the wheelchair person actually wants to join the army, @@HE@@ could have enlisted even in a nation without conscription (and may or may not have been rejected, but that's another matter). Meanwhile, someone who is neither a disabled person, nor a friend or family member of a disabled person, nor a military officer who will be stuck trying to figure out how to make use of disabled subordinates, has little reason to object to other people joining the military.

Most countries in real life that use conscription do allow exemption for people with serious medical conditions. Which does sometimes lead to people trying to fake medical conditions to get out of conscription, and/or actually deliberately injuring themselves to cheat the system (and maybe overdoing it and receiving a Darwin Award). Maybe there's room for an issue there.

Most countries that don't use conscription do still have some sort of physical requirements for enlisting, but people have less reason to cheat at those. There could still be discussion about how strict the requirements should be and whether someone of questionable value should still be allowed to enlist if he really wants to join the army, but bringing conscription into this discussion is just a distraction.

As a side note, the issue does get touched on in passing in #810 option 4.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:40 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Aren't the character opinions here a little backwards? If the wheelchair person actually wants to join the army, @@HE@@ could have enlisted even in a nation without conscription (and may or may not have been rejected, but that's another matter). Meanwhile, someone who is neither a disabled person, nor a friend or family member of a disabled person, nor a military officer who will be stuck trying to figure out how to make use of disabled subordinates, has little reason to object to other people joining the military.

Most countries in real life that use conscription do allow exemption for people with serious medical conditions. Which does sometimes lead to people trying to fake medical conditions to get out of conscription, and/or actually deliberately injuring themselves to cheat the system (and maybe overdoing it and receiving a Darwin Award). Maybe there's room for an issue there.

Most countries that don't use conscription do still have some sort of physical requirements for enlisting, but people have less reason to cheat at those. There could still be discussion about how strict the requirements should be and whether someone of questionable value should still be allowed to enlist if he really wants to join the army, but bringing conscription into this discussion is just a distraction.

As a side note, the issue does get touched on in passing in #810 option 4.


Well, when I asked Valentine Z who had served in the military as part of compulsory national service I was told that people with disabilities such as one-legged, one-armed receive exemption from forced conscription. In this issue I assume that is the default state of a country, and the player can choose to allow people with disabilities to serve in the military in a different capacity, or remain excluded from service. I was simultaneously told that based on their experience, the premise would work in its current form. I could perhaps add in something about people faking disabilities as a fourth option, though.

And I could imagine that if the default state of a country is that people with disabilities are excluded from military service, that this might cause a stir in the nation when someone with a disability is conscripted instead of exempted from compulsory military service.

I could add in an aditional validity, that the player shouldn't have encountered the issue you point to. Or better said, not have chosen the issue option you spoke of.
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The Royal Commonwealth of Daarwyrth

A unified state of constituent duchies on the fictional continent of Geldria, where the monarch is considered the nation's centre of gravity.

Our Leader: Queen Demi Maria I | Our Capital: Daarport | Government type: Unitary semi-constitutional monarchy | Technology level: Post-Modern Tech | Civilization index: 13.71


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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:08 am

Hello there, and thank you for the citation! I am very, very glad to help you out, and I do think that this has potential! :hug:

So yes, I have 2 years of experience in Singapore which has mandatory conscription (is it redundant to put "mandatory"? Heh.) for its Citizens and Permanent Residents who are able-bodied. Of course, since people are different from each other, there are always exceptions and other bits and bobs here and there. As we have discussed in the preliminary state, I will be sharing more here as far as I can without going over the classified territory, on top of giving remarks towards Trot's comments in a constructive way! ^^

In quick details, physical disability will net you an exemption from National Service / conscription. This is called PES F. PES - Physical Employment Standards. I was B1 for reference, so I'm able for ALL the work and exercise, but just that I am like not the top-of-the-line / Greek God complexion to be PES A, so to speak. PES A is for Commandos, Guards, and all the fitness buffs.

Here's a website from official CMPB - Central Manpower Base if you are interested. Note that this is all public info and none of it is classified. ^^

Anyway, going back to the topic! PES F is definite if you are disabled in terms of physical - one-armed, or one-legged, partial blindness, deafness, etc. Partial deafness is still okay, but they will be moved to clerk-based or lighter workload. I have personal experience with a guy who has it. He's actually pretty chill and I am good friends with him. Just that we need to raise our voices a little so that he can hear whenever he is on clerk duty.

There is also the case of mental handicaps - autism or Down's Syndrome come into mind. I think the latter is completely exempted, but for autism, depends on the spectrum. I have met a few autistic friends and I didn't mean it as an insult. I mean that they are actually literally autistic, but they are pretty fun to talk to, if a little socially awkward. Those on the lighter part of the spectrum are PES B so they are fit to be around, just maybe a little slow. Those who are moderate or severe are either exempted, or put in PES C (Suitable for some combat support vocations, and combat service support vocations). I know quite a handful of autistic friends on the moderate to somewhat extreme part of the spectrum. As far as I know, they are all exempted from National Service and didn't serve at all, not even in clerk. Those who did are on the light part of the spectrum as aforementioned (or High-Functioning Autism and a really mild one) and other than social awkwardness, they are very, very capable of physical feats or following instructions (sometimes even moreso than non-autistic people who can be a bit stubborn.)

Hope this helps! My apologies in advance if I have misworded some parts here and there regarding mental health or physical disabilities. It is not my intention. ^^



Trotterdam wrote:Aren't the character opinions here a little backwards? If the wheelchair person actually wants to join the army, @@HE@@ could have enlisted even in a nation without conscription (and may or may not have been rejected, but that's another matter). Meanwhile, someone who is neither a disabled person, nor a friend or family member of a disabled person, nor a military officer who will be stuck trying to figure out how to make use of disabled subordinates, has little reason to object to other people joining the military.

Most countries in real life that use conscription do allow exemption for people with serious medical conditions. Which does sometimes lead to people trying to fake medical conditions to get out of conscription, and/or actually deliberately injuring themselves to cheat the system (and maybe overdoing it and receiving a Darwin Award). Maybe there's room for an issue there.

Most countries that don't use conscription do still have some sort of physical requirements for enlisting, but people have less reason to cheat at those. There could still be discussion about how strict the requirements should be and whether someone of questionable value should still be allowed to enlist if he really wants to join the army, but bringing conscription into this discussion is just a distraction.

As a side note, the issue does get touched on in passing in #810 option 4.

> Most countries in real life that use conscription do allow exemption for people with serious medical conditions. Which does sometimes lead to people trying to fake medical conditions to get out of conscription, and/or actually deliberately injuring themselves to cheat the system (and maybe overdoing it and receiving a Darwin Award). Maybe there's room for an issue there.

That actually has potential on its own and I do believe that you can either add this option here, or maybe a follow-up to this issue. And yes, even in Singapore you have such cases if you look it up on Wikipedia. However, most of the Controversies are due to complicated matters of age of coming and all that fluff, not because someone was faking an injury. Faking an injury, or even trying to get one, doesn't really get put into here, just stories from netizens around Facebook or other social network talking in hushed tones about how they wanted to avoid the 2 years. (To my fellow Singaporean dudes reading, no I am not going to tell you how to avoid the 2 years. Please suck it up and enjoy the 2 years. It's fun, I promise! :P )

As for the 810 bit, I was thinking that this issue can be a follow-up to 810.4 as Trot has pointed out that it gets touched on in passing.



In short and condensing it all and getting to the point, being wheelchair makes you an obvious PES F in here. We do not have soldiers in wheelchairs, unless perhaps it's an once able-bodied person that got an injury and was wheelchair bound. That would be an honorable discharge, and maybe then you will see a soldier in a wheelchair purely for ceremonial purposes. Although, I don't really see that just yet mainly because we don't tend to have serious battlefield injuries in training.

For the sake of humor and making exaggerations (especially for dictatorship nations), strapping weapons to a wheelchair and making that guy a semi-UAV is plausible but you can bet that people are not going to be happy about it! I definitely like the idea, perhaps if a little scared about the potentials of having to draft everyone regardless if worst comes to worse.



Minor issue feedback. You don't have to follow it if you feel that there are better ways, I won't be offended. :D Just giving my 2 cents!

Option 1: I think the "visibly forsaken any kind of physical activity" can be displayed and talked about better. Maybe something along the line of him struggling to lift a dumbbell that he brought with him. Before his out-of-shape body is exposed, maybe he tried his best not to strain and scream at lifting the dumbbell. Maybe his face is slowly turning red as he lifts and holds the dumbbell.

Effect 2: I personally don't have anything against the line, but it does seem a little out of place compared to the option. Maybe it's just me! I have talked about this before, but I read it back and it does make sense, so I think it has a place in the issue. Back in the days when something minor can be an excuse, now even not having working legs is a valid excuse. Wild!

Option 3 is pretty darn funny, and exactly what I mean! Well, funny in a morbid way, but still works on how the warring nations will do anything to bolster their numbers.

That's all I got so far. All the best! :D
Last edited by Valentine Z on Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:10 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:19 am

Valentine Z wrote:Partial deafness is still okay, but they will be moved to clerk-based or lighter workload. I have personal experience with a guy who has it. He's actually pretty chill and I am good friends with him. Just that we need to raise our voices a little so that he can hear whenever he is on clerk duty.
If your deafness is that mild, shouldn't electronic hearing aids be able to restore you to full hearing? Seems to me that should be enough to qualify someone as fully capable. And hey, most soldiers need sound dampeners to protect them from the sounds of gunfire anyway.

Valentine Z wrote:other than social awkwardness, they are very, very capable of physical feats or following instructions (sometimes even moreso than non-autistic people who can be a bit stubborn.)
What, and autistic people are never stubborn?

Valentine Z wrote:However, most of the Controversies are due to complicated matters of age of coming and all that fluff, not because someone was faking an injury. Faking an injury, or even trying to get one, doesn't really get put into here, just stories from netizens around Facebook or other social network talking in hushed tones about how they wanted to avoid the 2 years.
I don't know how common it is, but it's definitely happened.

You're not addressing my main point though. The point of conscription is that it forces people to join the military even if they don't want to. However, as currently written, every single one of the speakers does want to join (or stay in) the military, which means the issue has nothing to do with conscription and would work better with that validity removed. (Conscription is the second-most common policy in the game, after Capitalism which doesn't really count, but even so why restrict the eligible nations more than necessary?) If you do mean to make an issue that specifically addresses some aspect of conscription, rather than a question of military enlistment also relevant in nations without conscription, then you need to modify the story somehow so the speakers' backgrounds better match the opinions they're presenting. ("This one wheelchair-bound person actually wants to enlist" does not lead logically to "all wheelchair-bound people should be forced to enlist".)

Valentine Z wrote:For the sake of humor and making exaggerations (especially for dictatorship nations), strapping weapons to a wheelchair and making that guy a semi-UAV is plausible
I'm pretty sure most wheelchairs are neither unmanned nor aerial.

I think you're thinking of IFV?

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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:33 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:other than social awkwardness, they are very, very capable of physical feats or following instructions (sometimes even moreso than non-autistic people who can be a bit stubborn.)
What, and autistic people are never stubborn?

I need to address this because I did not mean any offense at that, or at any other bits. Note the word "sometimes". It happens regardless of the spectrum, but it's a trend that some of them are actually pretty nice people and follow up quite well. They also don't tend to complain as much. Again, just my observation, not saying this as a trend.

> I'm pretty sure most wheelchairs are neither unmanned nor aerial.
I think you're thinking of IFV?

Do pardon my poor attempt at a joke. ^^;



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If you are reading my sig, I want you to have the best day ever ! You are worth it, do not let anyone get you down !
Glory to De Geweldige Sierlijke Katachtige Utopia en Zijne Autonome Machten ov Valentine Z !
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• Eat my fking tranquility. - Zenyatta
• Never trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:42 am

A more interesting issue here would be to assume that disability exempts people from military service, and then to have accusation of folk using or even fabricating "minor" or non-visible disabilities to avoid the draft.

That one would have legs. :p
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