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[DEFEATED] Commend Altino

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Wymondham
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[DEFEATED] Commend Altino

Postby Wymondham » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:45 pm

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The Security Council,

Recognizing that the nation of Altino, founded four years ago, has made many exceptional contributions worthy of commendation by this council, through their work to develop regional communities and leaders, as well as to build inter-regional camaraderie;

Observing Altino’s work in connecting regional leaders and founders by hosting and inviting them to “NationStates Leaders”, which they have constantly striven to improve, where nations can discuss and debate the principles of regional leadership, access resources to improve regional government, share leadership techniques, and learn from experienced nations' wisdom;

Acknowledging Altino's service to the region of Karma, in the following capacities, among others:
  • as the region’s founder, thanks to their steady hand, it has grown into a vibrant and prosperous community, achieved partially through the unique “enlightenment” process that all nations must undergo to serve in senior government positions and to vote in the regional legislature;
  • as Editor of “the Augury” - the region’s newspaper, through which they ensured the nations of Karma were kept well informed and up to date about regional events;
  • and as a member of the Council of Sages, where they assisted their fellow sages in guiding the region on matters ranging from legislation to the appointment of new members of government, thus ensuring that it was governed competently and fairly;
Lauding Altino’s efforts to foster inter-regional relations helping, in various roles, to forge treaties between Karma and Caer Sidi, Anteria, and The West Pacific, all of which cultivated strong relationships and broadened Karma’s diplomatic reach;

Honouring Altino’s service to The West Pacific as Commander of The West Pacific Armed Forces for 5 months from October 2017 to February 2018, which under their leadership:
  • developed innovative recruitment methods which drove membership and activity to unprecedented levels in a short space of time;
  • adopted the iconic West Pacific Pirate theme, allowing for purveyors of cutlasses and swillers of rum to be put into the spotlight;
  • expanded the officer corps fivefold, while also improving training standards;
  • integrated the Armed Forces with the wider regional community, enabling several recruits to transfer their skills to the government of The West Pacific;
  • authored articles for “The West Pacifican”, the regional newspaper, detailing the Armed Forces’ work and helping to improve regional understanding of the Armed Forces’ efforts;
  • trained several talented officers and future Commanders, including Overthinkers - the current commander of The West Pacific Armed Forces;
Praising Altino’s work in Osiris, as both its longest serving Pharaoh and as Chief Vizier, where they ushered in a new philosophy of government, leading to the emergence of a new generation of Osiran leaders, with their principles serving as the region’s guiding philosophy to this day, alongside transforming the region’s sense of community, and increasing activity and governmental participation to a level that, due to their stellar leadership, became both unprecedented and sustainable;

Appreciating the significance of Altino’s continued presence as a "beloved pillar" of the communities of both The West Pacific and Osiris, as shown by their work to uphold community standards, promote regional culture and advise community leaders using their vast experience, as recognised by the respective communities in the form of their honorary status as the first recipient of The West Pacific Medal of Honour and the honorary title of "Soul Sista", as conferred by delegate Bran Astor, alongside Osiris' highest honour, the Violet Jewel of Atum;

Believing that the accomplishments detailed above have improved creative and productive participation in many communities and are worthy of recognition by this august body;

Hereby Commends Altino.
Co-authored by Nieubasria


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Commend Altino

Category: Commend | Nominee: Altino


The Security Council,

Recognizing that the nation of Altino was founded in June 2016 and has made many exceptional contributions worthy of commendation by this council, through their work to develop regional communities, build inter-regional camaraderie and develop regional leaders;

Observing Altino’s work in connecting regional leaders and founders by hosting and inviting them to join “NationStates Leaders”, where nations can discuss and debate the principles of regional leadership, share best practice, learn from experienced nation’s wisdom and access resources to learn how to build regional communities, recruit new nations and protect their community, facilitating the development of strong and successful regional communities;

Acknowledging Altino's service to the region of Karma, in the following capacities, among others:
  • as the region’s founder, which as a result of their steady hand, has grown into a vibrant and prosperous community, achieved partially through the unique “enlightenment” process that all nations must go through to serve in senior government positions and to vote in the regional legislature
  • as its long-standing Guru of Diplomacy, where they brokered treaties and expanded the region’s diplomatic reach,
  • as Editor of “the Augury” - the region’s newspaper, where they ensured the nations of Karma were kept informed and up to date about the region’s goings on,
  • and as a member of the Council of Sages, where they (alongside other Sages) assisted and guided the region on matters ranging from legislation, to the appointment of new members of government, thus ensuring that it is governed competently and fairly;

Lauding Altino’s efforts to foster inter-regional camaraderie helping, in various roles, to forge treaties between Karma and Caer Sidi, Anteria, and The West Pacific, all of which cultivated strong relationships and broadened Karma’s diplomatic reach;

Honouring Altino’s service to The West Pacific as Commander of The West Pacific Armed Forces from October 2017 to February 2018, which under their leadership:
  • developed innovative recruitment methods which drove membership and activity to unprecedented levels in a short space of time;
  • adopted the iconic West Pacific Pirate theme, allowing for purveyors of cutlasses and swillers of rum to be put into the spotlight;
  • Expanded the officer corps fivefold, improving training standards along the way
  • Integrated the Armed Forces with the wider regional community, enabling several recruits to transfer their skills to the government of the West Pacific
  • Authored articles for The West Pacifican, the regional newspaper, on the Armed Forces’ work, helping to improve regional understanding of the Armed Forces’ efforts
  • trained several talented officers and future Commanders, such as Overthinkers - the current commander of The West Pacific Armed Forces;

Appreciating the significance of Altino’s continuing community presence in The West Pacific and Osiris as recognized by the awards granted to them, such as the first ever award of The West Pacific Medal of Honor and a Regional Commendation, for services to The West Pacific Armed Forces, and the honorary title of “Soul Sista” as granted by Delegate Bran Astor, alongside the Violet Jewel of Atum, Osiris’ highest honor, awarded for their work to “cultivate meritocracy” and status as a “beloved pillar” of the region’s community;

Praising Altino’s work in Osiris, as both its longest serving Pharaoh and as Chief Vizier, where they ushered in a new philosophy of government, which led to the emergence of a new generation of Osiran leaders and continues to be the region’s guiding philosophy to this day, alongside transforming the region’s sense of camaraderie, as well as increasing activity and governmental participation to a level that, due to their stellar leadership, became both unparalleled and sustainable;

Believing that accomplishments detailed above, have improved creative and productive participation in many communities and are worthy of recognition by this august body;

Hereby Commends Altino.
Co-authored by Nieubasria

Image

Commend Altino

Category: Commend | Nominee: Altino


The Security Council,

Recognizing that the nation of Altino was founded in June 2016 and has made many exceptional contributions worthy of commendation by this council;

Praising Altino for supporting and unlocking the potential of new nations by entrusting them with governmental positions, such as Miss Bad Life Choices, to the Council of Viziers in Osiris, enabling them to develop excellent leadership skills which would serve them well when they later became Chief Vizier of Osiris, successfully overseeing the majority of the region’s day to day operations, as well as in their service as a Council member of The Black Hawks;

Impressed by Altino’s work on improving Osiris during their tenure as the region’s longest serving Pharaoh, in which they implemented the system of meritocracy which led to the emergence of a new generation of leaders, such as Luna State who currently serves on the Council of Viziers, and developed the skills of the nations that would succeed them, such as Rigels Light;

Observing Altino’s work in connecting regional leaders and founders by hosting and inviting them to join “NationStates Leaders”, while inviting new founders, regional leaders and World Assembly Delegates to participate in the forum for discussion, ensuring that ideas for better regional leadership may be shared and that new regional leaders have access to experienced advice, facilitating the development of strong and successful regional communities;

Acknowledging Altino's status as founder of Karma, which as a result of their leadership, contained 458 nations and a peak count of 172 World Assembly nations, making it one of the largest and most active regions in the world, as a result of the system of meritocracy Altino built Karma upon;

Lauding Altino’s efforts to foster inter-regional camaraderie helping, in various roles, to forge treaties between Karma and Caer Sidi, Anteria, and The West Pacific, as well as agreements between Osiris and The Empire of Mare Nostrum, Europeia and The North Pacific as Pharaoh of Osiris, all of which significantly broadened the diplomatic reach of Osiris and Karma;

Honouring Altino’s service to The West Pacific as Commander of The West Pacific Armed Forces from October 2017 to February 2018, which under their leadership:
  • developed innovative recruitment methods, driving membership and activity to unprecedented levels;
  • adopted the iconic West Pacific Pirate theme, allowing for purveyors of cutlasses and swillers of rum to be put into the spotlight;
  • trained several talented officers and future Commanders;
  • achieved a showcase of over 100 embassies in Doll Guldur as trophies of The West Pacific’s military success;
Appreciating the significance of Altino’s continuing community presence in The West Pacific and Osiris as recognized by the awards granted to them, such as the first ever award of The West Pacific Medal of Honor, for services to The West Pacific Armed Forces, Regional Commendation by the Hall of Nations, and the honorary title of “Soul Sista” as granted by Delegate Bran Astor, alongside the Violet Jewel of Atum, Osiris’ highest honor, awarded for their work to “cultivate meritocracy” and status as a “beloved pillar” of the region’s community;

Believing that Altino’s work to build regional communities, through their work in regional development and building interregional camaraderie, as well as their efforts to help regional leaders develop their skills, have improved participation in said communities and are worthy of recognition by this august body;

Hereby Commends Altino.

Co-authored by Nieubasria.

First SC proposal, resonable suggestions appreciated. Many thanks to the WA Departments in Karma and The West Pacific for all of the work they put in to help make this possible and to Lord Dominator, Maowi, Honeydewistania and Jakker for giving some experienced SC eyes on this at various points and stopping me making a fool of myself. Also thanks to Yokiria and Tethys 13 for the draft 3 grammatical polish
Oh, and apologies for the flag - the things I do for Osiris Community Affairs events :p
Last edited by Ransium on Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:38 pm, edited 27 times in total.
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Postby Nieubasria » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:50 pm

On behalf of TWP and as Minister of World Assembly Recruitment, I would like to say a special thanks to Bhang Bhang Duc for their advice and experience in the internal drafting!
Further thanks to my Deputy Ministers for their support and ongoing work as we engage in this draft thread.

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Postby Polder Eiland » Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:15 pm

YAY! Never have I been so excited for a commend since August's :D

And of course, props to Wym, Aga, and Nieubasria for writing an impressive resolution :)
Last edited by Polder Eiland on Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Boda » Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:31 pm

Support! Glad altino’s going to become one of the commended raiders
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Postby Imperium of Josh » Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:45 pm

It should surprise absolutely nobody to hear me declare my full support for commending Altino :P

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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:00 pm

supportive owl noises

Are you sure that it's legal to refer to Skies as the Osiran "Vizier of Gameside Affairs?"
Last edited by Tinhampton on Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wymondham » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:06 pm

Tinhampton wrote:supportive owl noises

Are you sure that it's legal to refer to Skies as the Osiran "Vizier of Gameside Affairs?"

I am merely quoting the name of the position that Skies' holds in its entirety, if it had instead been Vizier of Foreign Affairs, Community Affairs or World Assembly Affairs I would have quoted it likewise
Last edited by Wymondham on Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Morover
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Postby Morover » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:16 pm

Wymondham wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:supportive owl noises

Are you sure that it's legal to refer to Skies as the Osiran "Vizier of Gameside Affairs?"

I am merely quoting the name of the position that Skies' holds in its entirety, if it had instead been Vizier of Foreign Affairs, Community Affairs or World Assembly Affairs I would have quoted it likewise

More comments later probably, but if I recall, "Protect our Players Accord" from Commend Halo was ruled illegal, so I think "Gameside" might be illegal too. If it is, might I suggest "NationStatesside Affairs"?

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Wymondham
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Postby Wymondham » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:22 pm

Morover wrote:
Wymondham wrote:I am merely quoting the name of the position that Skies' holds in its entirety, if it had instead been Vizier of Foreign Affairs, Community Affairs or World Assembly Affairs I would have quoted it likewise

More comments later probably, but if I recall, "Protect our Players Accord" from Commend Halo was ruled illegal, so I think "Gameside" might be illegal too. If it is, might I suggest "NationStatesside Affairs"?

If the name is indeed deemed illegal then I'll certainly consider that an option, I obviously want to wait for a ruling first
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Postby Ransium » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:32 pm

Even though it is a position title, I would mark “Vizier of gameside affairs” illegal, sorry.

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Wymondham
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Postby Wymondham » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:35 pm

Okay, have edited that out and replaced it with a more broad "member of the Council of Viziers" unless anyone can come up with a suitable replacement name
Last edited by Wymondham on Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cantanasia Objective » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:43 am

Cool
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Postby Honeydewistania » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:20 am

Use all commas or all semi-colons, consistency is key.
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Postby Wymondham » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:50 am

Honeydewistania wrote:Use all commas or all semi-colons, consistency is key.

Fixed, thanks for catching that!
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Postby Fuentana » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:49 am

Excellent work and an excellent person to commend! :)
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Electrum
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Postby Electrum » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:39 pm

A few things - as usual, take these recommendations or leave them.

Wymondham wrote:Praising Altino for supporting and unlocking the potential of new nations by entrusting them with governmental positions, such as Miss Bad Life Choices, to the Council of Viziers in Osiris, enabling them to develop excellent leadership skills which would serve them well when they later became Chief Vizier of Osiris, successfully overseeing the majority of the region’s day to day operations, as well as in their service as a Council member of The Black Hawks;


My first read was that "Miss Bad Life Choices" was a government position. You can rewrite it like this (there are other changes, but they are more stylistic and I feel improve the flow of the resolution). Not to criticise too much but the parts of the clause on Miss Bad Life Choices is longer than Altino's part.

Wymondham wrote:Praising Altino for supporting and unlocking the potential of new nations by entrusting them with governmental positions, such as appointing Miss Bad Life Choices to the Council of Viziers in Osiris, which enabled them to develop excellent leadership skills which would serve them well when they later became a successful Chief Vizier of Osiris, where they oversaw the region’s day to day operations, as well as in their service as a Council member of The Black Hawks;


I think saying "founders, regional leaders and WADs" thrice in the clause below is a bit repetitious. For example you can say "by hosting and inviting them to join "NationStates Leaders""

Wymondham wrote:Observing Altino’s work in connecting regional leaders and founders by hosting “NationStates Leaders”, a forum for communication exclusively for founders, regional leaders and World Assembly Delegates, while inviting new founders, regional leaders and World Assembly Delegates to participate in the forum for discussion, ensuring that ideas for better regional leadership may be shared and that new regional leaders have access to experienced advice, facilitating the development of strong and successful regional communities;


There might be a missing comma here (I've added it below):

Wymondham wrote:Acknowledging Altino's status as founder of Karma, which as a result of their leadership, contained 458 nations and a peak count of 172 World Assembly nations, making it one of the largest and most active regions in the world, as a result of the system of meritocracy Altino built Karma upon;


I think there are a few missing words here between camaraderie and helping. Perhaps also mention Karma first before talking about what regions they forged treaties with. It's a bit weird to flip the order there, and is the opposite of what you did with the Osiris treaties.

Wymondham wrote:Lauding Altino’s efforts to foster inter-regional camaraderie helping forge treaties with Caer Sidi, Anteria, and The West Pacific through various roles in Karma, as well as agreements between Osiris and The Empire of Mare Nostrum, Europeia and The North Pacific as Pharaoh of Osiris, all of which significantly broadened the diplomatic reach of Osiris and Karma;


So this is another clause on how Altino has helped/mentored other nations. Might I suggest putting this next to the clause on Miss Bad Life Choices, or combine them?

Wymondham wrote:Impressed by Altino’s work on improving Osiris during their tenure as the region’s longest serving Pharaoh, in which they implemented the system of meritocracy which led to the emergence of a new generation of leaders, such as Luna State who currently serves on the Council of Viziers, and developed the skills of the nations that would succeed them, such as Rigels Light;


But overall I can see why this candidate is deserving of a commendation. Well done.
Last edited by Electrum on Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wymondham
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Postby Wymondham » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:58 pm

Electrum wrote:Snip

I've implemented all of your suggestions, with the one regarding Luna State being achieved by shifting the clause up rather than merging it. Thank you very much for taking the time to use your experience to help improve the quality of this proposal and many thanks for your kind words about the proposal. :)
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Postby Daytime to Night » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:43 am

In theory I could support a Commend of Alti but I really don't think this proposal in its current format does her contributions justice or demonstrates why she might deserve one.

Firstly, why kick off with so much content about people that aren't Altino? It completely distracts from her own commendable contributions and I really don't care about all the Osiris shoutouts. Focus on what she has done, and why that is significant and positive. Other people and their positions should have nothing to do with that.

Secondly, Altino seems to be recognised for inviting people to NationStates Leaders - is that not done entirely by an automated system set up by August? Altino's role appears to be more about facilitating and developing this community - focus on that.

Thirdly, being founder of a big region isn't commendable in and of itself (#commendJocospor #commendGest). Specifying the specific numbers is even more pointless. Refine that clause to focus on Alti's specific role and contribution to Karma as founder. Is the size of Karma really the result of 'the system of meritocracy Altino built' or is it the result of automated recruitment?

Fourthly, the diplomacy clause could be stronger, I don't really care about the 'democractic reach' of Osiris or Karma - that doesn't necessarily support the aims of the Security Council but could do if you explained its importance better (i.e global harmony, interregional peace and goodwill). The reference to the Osiris/EMN treaty is laughable, that is a golden example of how to manage a Treaty relationship badly. The treaties between Osiris and Europeia/TNP haven't been especially productive either, if they have, explain why. There is problem more positive content to draw from the Karma treaties here.

Next, why is driving raider activity in the TWPAF commendable, how does it support the aims of the Security Council?

The last two clauses seem good, but why is cultivating meritocracy good? I would word that differently to emphasise the outcomes from that, rather than simply assuming that WA voters will find the promotion an anti-democratic form of Government to be a commendable thing.

You might want to consider leading with some of the content in the last clause, as this would set the tone for the commendation and explain why Alti is potentially commendable.

Remember, a lot of those commenting here will know Altino and will probably support this in principle, but there are 23,000 WA nations - many of whom will read this at face value and might draw very different conclusions unless the text of the proposal sells your case for commendation better.
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Postby A Bloodred Moon » Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:36 am

Wymondham wrote:
Electrum wrote:Snip

I've implemented all of your suggestions, with the one regarding Luna State being achieved by shifting the clause up rather than merging it. Thank you very much for taking the time to use your experience to help improve the quality of this proposal and many thanks for your kind words about the proposal. :)

Merging it would probably be better. The current draft talks about other nations and future leaders being guided by Alti, which is fine, but it can be summed up in a single clause rather than two. That’d leave more room for Alti’s own contributions to be expanded upon.

Furthermore, didn’t Osiris-Europeia relations actually break down during Alti’s reign, or am I misremembering?

Lastly, what’s with the heavy focus on meritocracy? I get Alti is very vocal about her support for meritocracy, and I understand the West Pacific, Karma and Osiris all thrive under it, but there seems to be an odd focus on it to mention it at every opportunity.

Beyond that, I more or less broadly agree with Numero’s points on the other clauses. I support a commend of Alti, but I think the current draft could be improved upon.
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:10 am

I guess I'll be the one that goes out on a limb and says that I don't really feel this commendation. I have nothing against Alti, but her NS persona is very non-commendable when you look at her career. I'll be nitpicky too.

Praising Altino for supporting and unlocking the potential of new nations by entrusting them with governmental positions, such as Miss Bad Life Choices, to the Council of Viziers in Osiris, enabling them to develop excellent leadership skills which would serve them well when they later became Chief Vizier of Osiris, successfully overseeing the majority of the region’s day to day operations, as well as in their service as a Council member of The Black Hawks;

This can be said for every regional leader ever, in the entire history of NationStates. What makes this exceptional? And why single out Dakota, of all the possible people Altino has entrusted into government positions? I also feel like the TBH part doesn't belong, nor does the list of Dakota's government positions. This is supposedly about Altino, not Dakota.

Impressed by Altino’s work on improving Osiris during their tenure as the region’s longest serving Pharaoh, in which they implemented the system of meritocracy which led to the emergence of a new generation of leaders, such as Luna State who currently serves on the Council of Viziers, and developed the skills of the nations that would succeed them, such as Rigels Light;

I'm not sure about Luna State, but I know from talking to others that Rigel held government positions in TWP before Osiris. Their skills were already developed, or on that track, before gaining an Osi government position. Also, Rigels Light didn't succeed Altino. There were two Pharoahs between Altino and Rigel, Anabelle and Lynxi, with Lynxi being the one to succeed her. So why choose the two people you chose instead of her true successor and others?

Acknowledging Altino's status as founder of Karma, which as a result of their leadership, contained 458 nations and a peak count of 172 World Assembly nations, making it one of the largest and most active regions in the world, as a result of the system of meritocracy Altino built Karma upon;

So she founded a region that became big, cool. There are tons of other regions, and founders, who have done the same who aren't yet commended such as The Noble Thatcherites.

Honouring Altino’s service to The West Pacific as Commander of The West Pacific Armed Forces from October 2017 to February 2018, which under their leadership:
developed innovative recruitment methods, driving membership and activity to unprecedented levels;
adopted the iconic West Pacific Pirate theme, allowing for purveyors of cutlasses and swillers of rum to be put into the spotlight;
trained several talented officers and future Commanders;
achieved a showcase of over 100 embassies in Doll Guldur as trophies of The West Pacific’s military success;

TWPAF is raider, this is pure fluff. How is keeping trophies commendable? How is any of this in line with the stated mission of the SC?



Overall very lackluster. You spend more space on others than you do Altino, which is a detriment. Also, meritocracy is not an ideology that needs to be espoused so hard. The idea behind meritocracy is that democracy is an inferior form of government, basically saying that at least 4 of the 9 GCRs are inferior to the rest.

I agree with Numero's post above here as well. I also want to remind people of the Politics Amino raid, which was sanctioned by Altino when she was Pharaoh of Osiris.
Last edited by Kuriko on Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:53 am

Agreed with Kuriko on many of the points.

Also, are we seriously trying to pretend that 100 tag embassies is impressive? That's a routine one-night run for any capable tagging team.


edit: The primary author also tells me on Discord he didn't write the TWP parts, so he cannot comment on them. So not only is this a poor proposal from Wym, it's a situation where they can't even substantiate their own proposal.
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wymondham
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Wymondham » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:56 am

A note that I have seen the comments made and will be responding and implementing them as appropriate, sometime in the next few days
Last edited by Wymondham on Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sancta Romana Ecclesia
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Founded: Aug 04, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sancta Romana Ecclesia » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:15 pm

Of course this needs some polish (no pun intended) and some may claim it's regional bias speaking through me - but I think that the commendation for Alti is well deserved.

Some ask "why is there so many different people named here"? Well, her primary NS power is precisely recognizing the potential in people, making them see that potential, and placing them in an environment where they can really shine. And then they shine. This is what this draft attempts to convey imo. If it could do a better job at it, then yeah it needs some work. But the idea is sound. NS is a game of communities and imho, thanks to this sekrit power of hers, Altino is one of the players excelling at community building.

Kuriko wrote:Also, meritocracy is not an ideology that needs to be espoused so hard. The idea behind meritocracy is that democracy is an inferior form of government, basically saying that at least 4 of the 9 GCRs are inferior to the rest.


Speaking semi-officially, as much as we in Karma like to meme that it does, meritocracy in concept does not imply by itself anti-democracy. The underlying idea is that the primary consideration, when deciding whether someone should hold office, is their "worthyiness". This may be sometimes hard to catch - for example more inexperienced player, but with bright new ideas and potential, may be more deserving of the office than an old, well-established and experienced one (thus more "competent"). Thus we treat our method of choosing a person to the office rather instrumentally, a means to an end - democracy, monarchy, diarchy, etc., all are good to us, as long as they serve the particular region well and leave the most deserving people in charge. So, no, we don't see democracies as inherently inferior. If it works, it works - Karma itself has certainly democratic elements to it. As well as every region that comes to my mind as choosing to bear this title. An inferior form of government is that, in which individuals that absolutely don't deserve to be in power, get this power - either through winning a popularity contest, their sycophancy to an all-powerful autocrat, or some likewise arbitrary decision.
Tim-Opolis wrote:edit: The primary author also tells me on Discord he didn't write the TWP parts, so he cannot comment on them. So not only is this a poor proposal from Wym, it's a situation where they can't even substantiate their own proposal.

I wasn't around for this conversation, but TWP parts were researched and suggested primarily by Aelitia (Nieubrasia), this is why they are credited for co-authorship. I don't know the context of Wym's remark here, I will let him speak on that.
Last edited by Sancta Romana Ecclesia on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Fuentana
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Founded: Apr 22, 2019
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Fuentana » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:37 pm

Daytime to Night wrote:-snip-

Thirdly, being founder of a big region isn't commendable in and of itself (#commendJocospor #commendGest). Specifying the specific numbers is even more pointless. Refine that clause to focus on Alti's specific role and contribution to Karma as founder. Is the size of Karma really the result of 'the system of meritocracy Altino built' or is it the result of automated recruitment?

-snip-

Next, why is driving raider activity in the TWPAF commendable, how does it support the aims of the Security Council?

-snip-

Remember, a lot of those commenting here will know Altino and will probably support this in principle, but there are 23,000 WA nations - many of whom will read this at face value and might draw very different conclusions unless the text of the proposal sells your case for commendation better.


These are great points that I agree with, and I am sure that the chief authors and those who have helped in some way can address these concerns. Some points that come to mind for me that could be incorporated into a refined version include:
  • Under Alti's leadership, Karma has a creative and effective means of initiating players into engaged participation called enlightenment. The process as I've observed it generates deeply invested players who understand each other and are committed to continuing the creative and wholesome culture that Alti envisioned in creating Karma. It's not easy to find the kind of uplifting virtual community that Alti started and continues to lead, and I think Alti figured out a really great and meaningful method for building such a community.
  • This may not address the second part of the point regarding Alti's raider activity and the aims of SC, but the commendation tries to acknowledge Alti's unique effectiveness as a commander. Of course, every region with an active leader in NS military gameplay will identify someone in the region who comes in with energy and effectiveness, but the type of effectiveness that Alti showed in the long history of TWP was singular. It was not simply her activity, but her charisma that generated a fun and empowering culture that has produced some great NS military players.
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Ghad
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Founded: Feb 18, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ghad » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:34 pm

I've come here to chime in on a few things, including the criticism that relates in some way to Karma and the system the region was built upon, and unlike with Sancta Romana Ecclesia that part can be taken as an official stance if you want, I don't much care, nor do I feel like that matters for this but whatever.

First... I missed the memo where democracy was obligatory for being in the WA or the SC, or even commended in the later, as I don't recall being non-democratic automatically meaning being against "peace and goodwill", so I'm not sure why this is somehow the only form of government that can ever be championed, and why every other form of government can automatically be disregarded and considered inferior just because it does not strictly follow this, without any actual solid reason that demonstrates why this goes against what the WA or SC stand for, but I digress (already yes), as that's most just a bit of nit-picking I wanted to get out of the way 'cause it was itching.

That said, here's what I mainly have to say about that,

Kuriko wrote:Also, meritocracy is not an ideology that needs to be espoused so hard. The idea behind meritocracy is that democracy is an inferior form of government, basically saying that at least 4 of the 9 GCRs are inferior to the rest.


Daytime to Night wrote:The last two clauses seem good, but why is cultivating meritocracy good? I would word that differently to emphasise the outcomes from that, rather than simply assuming that WA voters will find the promotion an anti-democratic form of Government to be a commendable thing.


Quick point before the text-wall... When have meritocracy or democracy become things that pertain only to GCRs? Or since when has this game been only made of GCRs? I just really don't see where that last point about meritocracy being about 4 of the GCRs being inferior to the rest came from. This isn't even a commendation on a GCR, but a'ight...

Anyway, I'm not fully sure where the idea that meritocracy is just about considering democracy inferior or is a stance against democracy came from? Because it's not... Well not in any way that any other chosen form of government is considering all other forms of governance inferior and/or is a stance against them, but even besides that the two systems can coexist... Which is in-fact to a degree the case in Karma.
To clarify I'm not saying Karma itself is the bastion of democracy (not gonna speak for any other region mentioned), we don't claim or pretend to be that either, and that's simply because we don't find it to be the form of government that works best for us, but don't get things mixed up, our lack of democracy doesn't come as a direct result of our championing for meritocracy. It comes from our decision to stick with a base non-demoratic oligarchic structure, independently of having meritocracy or not, as we find this to be the safest and most effective way to manage our region.
Nonetheless, we still have many elements of democracy peppered around the region. (Which I'll actually refrain from giving here because this is not a commendation of Karma) so again, meritocracy can work with democracy, as they do in a meriotcratic and non-democratic region like Karma.
To add to that... Meritocracy, at the very least Altino's brand of it, simply implies that people are chosen on merit. It doesn't automatically mean we're suddenly thrown into a dictatorship or something, and a meritocratic measure can be something as simple as "You have to prove your worth, in order to be able to be part of the government, or participate in it". This includes systems which are implemented in almost any democracy really, be it strictly or just indirectly. Which also means what's present both in XKI and TSP. Unless the region has no appointed positions, or no barrier on citizenship involvement (even if that's just via the presence of WA nations), or doesn't vote on its leaders based on their merit and the work they've done... If none of that happens congrats, you truly have no meriotcracy in your democratic system and still you somehow manage to get things done and that sounds like magic, otherwise congrats too as you are now part of the club of regions that have both democracy and meritocracy.

Now to other points,

Kuriko wrote:This can be said for every regional leader ever, in the entire history of NationStates. What makes this exceptional? And why single out Dakota, of all the possible people Altino has entrusted into government positions? I also feel like the TBH part doesn't belong, nor does the list of Dakota's government positions. This is supposedly about Altino, not Dakota.

-snip-

So she founded a region that became big, cool. There are tons of other regions, and founders, who have done the same who aren't yet commended such as The Noble Thatcherites.


Those two arguments, while having some validity feel a bit... disingenuous to me I'll be honest, and it might just be how I interpreted it I'll admit that too, but I'd say that if we were to only focus on each point individually and refuse to take into consideration everything else and the relations between all the points made, then one can easily argue that most, if not all commendations that have been passed by the SC are not worthy, no? Because of course "just creating a big region", or "just helping a few newer/less experienced members of a region" by itself is totally something that happens all the time sure, and many people who have done so have not received commendations, yes... But I think it's clear that this proposal isn't arguing that any of those things by themselves are grounds for a commendation... Otherwise only one of those would surely be the single point borught forward within it right?
So, even without stepping into if one is for or against commending Altino, or this commendation specifically, I believe it's safe to say that there's a big difference from doing only one of those things; and doing not only both of them, but also do it in various different regions/multiple times.


To finalize on this rambling part, I have to question why we still live in a NS world where one side of R/D is forever mighty and holy, and its achievements can be commended, and the other is forever terrible and evil and can never have its achievements praised, but that's mostly just unwinding and not a dicussion I actually want to feed into, especially since I feel like the stuff about TWPAF raiding achievements can be taken out without hurting the porposal, so watevs I guess.




Now, to my last cents, because I recognize this proposal also has its flaws (which to be fair, I could actually proably have looked at it before but oh well), I'm gonna say I have to agree with a few points brought up. Namely:


a) It spends too long talking about and focusing on other people, and while I agree that Altino helping launch new players might be an important point to make, I don't think the focus should so much be on what those other people ended up doing... Otherwise we should be commending them, not Altino.

b) Even I feel like there's a bit too much of a focus on/mention of meritocracy, which, at most, makes it sound like what made it all work was simply the meritocracy and not Altino or her approach to the system, which if that's the case then we should be commending meritocracy (lol plz dont) not Altino.

c) Some things could, and should, for sure be merged and way more tied together, sure it reduces the size of the thing, but quality over quantity and all of that.

d) While I understand that co-authorship, where both authors have equal amounts of power and independence, can be tricky, I do have to somewhat agree that a lack of agility in solving issues, or at the very least discussing them amongst yourselves, so you can both confidently speak on any matters brought up, does not really help your case much...

e) This last one is going to be a bit extensive again but, I agree that the way Altino's involvement in Karma was approached was very... lackluster. As someone who as accompanied Karma since its creation, I can't in all honesty just say "Yeh that part looks good". Boiling down her contributions to Karma as being "a founder who created and headed a region that went on to have a peak of 458 nations and 172 WA nations" (or however you put it) feels like a disservice both to her and to your proposal.
Alti hasn't led Karma to be successful just because she's the founder, that's in fact a very secondary thing, she could have been someone who wasn't the founder but still be as involved as she is and as invested as she is and bring Karma to where it stands all the same. Not to mention that I don't even know why numbers of nations, something that hasn't been the biggest priority even for us, the leadership of the region (someone who actually purposefully lets that drop from time to time), is your focus here. I think even something more vague like "making Karma a notable region on Nationstates" would have been more helpful there (and that doesn't sound too solid either, I'll be the first to say)... The point is, that the focus on numbers that no-one really cares about and only pointing out she's the founder without actually even hinting at what she worked towards, doesn't really add all that much to the commendation, and in fact probably ends up hurting your efforts more than anything.
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