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[DRAFT] Watch your language, young man!

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Ko-oren
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Founded: Nov 26, 2010
Democratic Socialists

[DRAFT] Watch your language, young man!

Postby Ko-oren » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:39 am

The idea for this issue came from a discussion on the NS Sports discord. This is a pretty rough draft so far. Option 4 has been tried IRL a handful of times, the most well-known example probably being Lojban. The effect lines probably need work...

Title: Watch your tongue, young man!
Description: Students from a university in a far-flung corner of northeastern @@NAME@@ launched a protest that has gotten out of hand. Their demand? That their university allows them to hand in their coursework written in the local dialect, instead of solely in the standard vernacular. You've been called in to mediate after news got out that students will stage similar protests in other far-flung corners of the nation.
Validity: No devolution?

Option 1: "Well, well, what's dis 'ere? De big boss, visitin' our campus!" greets @@RANDOMNAME@@, picking you out of the crowd of onlookers. "Fanks for listenin' to us! Dis university only wants our papers handed in written in posh language, but it's limitin' my foughts and that! Can you tell my professors to allow our stuff to be submitted in the dialects dat we speak round 'ere?" as @@HE@@ drags you inside to meet the staff.
[effect] students churn out papers quicker than ever but few can read them.

Option 2: "Dear @@LEADER@@, this cannot possibly be," says professor @@RANDOMNAME@@, a name you deduced from the gold name plate on the office door. "We cannot let the students tell us what to do! As for their arguments, surely we cannot allow them to use this vulgar local tongue? Aside from that, we in these hallowed halls of learning are trying to share our science with researchers all over @@NAME@@, let alone @@REGION@@! They all know the academic vernacular, but if it's all composed in this... this... disgusting regional parlance, they can't understand it! Please let us tell all the students to do the rational fing, er, thing, and write using the proper standard!" as the professor finally looks up from a pile of corrected essays, his pen out of red ink.
[effect] a new generation of undergraduates acquires the ability to produce verbose and ultimately pointlessly long run-on sentences to ramp up the word count.

Option 3: @@RANDOMNAME@@, one of your advisors, takes you aside. "There's something to say for both sides. Whatever you choose, one side will be unhappy. But! There's a neutral solution to this! All universities and colleges should use a dead language that is an acquired medium to everyone. The classical language of education of our ancestors, or classical Daguoan, or ancient Maxtopian, for all I care! It might be an inconvenience at first, but it's a fair and honest inconvenience for everyone equally!" @@HE@@ realises you're not quite out of earshot, and both the student and the professor glare at @@HIM@@.
[effect] bookstores are full of phrasebooks for extinct languages.

Option 4: A Comp Sci student by the name of @@RANDOMNAME@@ hacks into the conversation with a different idea. "We should develop a new language for academia. And we should make it structured in such a way that computers will be able to understand it! In fact, me and my buddies have already developed version 1.0 of this language, and we could teach it to everybody in small, simple, byte sized bits. It's perfect for use in the sciences: it's entirely logical, everyone can read it, it allows for no misunderstanding, or double meanings, or ambiguity. It's perfect!"
[effect] the economy sees more and more demand for computer whisperers.
[Validity] No AI Personhood, has computers

Title: Watch your tongue, young man!
Description: Students from a university in a far-flung corner of northeastern @@NAME@@ launched a protest that has gotten out of hand. Their demand? That their university allows them to hand in their coursework written in the local dialect, instead of solely in the standard vernacular. You've been called in to mediate after news got out that students will stage similar protests in other far-flung corners of the nation.
Validity: No devolution?

Option 1: "Well, well, what's dis 'ere? De big boss, visitin' our campus! Fanks for listenin' to us! Dis university only wants our papers handed in written in posh language, but it's limitin' my foughts and that! For every assignment, I first have to fink up my entire argument, den translate it into this... artificial, academic language that nobody speaks. Can you tell my professors to allow our stuff to be submitted in the dialects dat we actually all fink in?"
[effect] students churn out papers quicker than ever but few can read them.

Option 2: "Dear @@LEADER@@, this cannot possibly be. We cannot let the students tell us what to do! As for their arguments, surely we cannot allow them to use this vulgar local tongue? Aside from that, we in these hallowed halls of learning are trying to share our science with researchers all over @@NAME@@, let alone @@REGION@@! They all know the academic vernacular, but if it's all composed in this... this... disgusting regional parlance, they can't understand it! Please let us tell all the students to do the rational fing, er, thing, and write using the proper standard!"
[effect] a new generation of undergraduates acquires the ability to produce verbose and ultimately pointlessly long run-on sentences to ramp up the word count.

Option 3: One of your advisors, who himself is from this region, takes you aside. "There's somethin' to say for both sides. Whatever you choose, one side will be unhappy. But! There's a neutral solution to this! All universities and colleges should use a dead language that is an acquired medium to everyone. The classical language of education of our ancestors, or classical Daguoan, or ancient Maxtopian, for all I care! It might be an inconvenience at first, but it's a fair and honest inconvenience for everyone equally!"
[effect] bookstores are full of phrasebooks for extinct languages.

Option 4: One of the Comp Sci students, also present at the protest, has a different idea. "We should develop a new, logical, language. And we should make it structured in such a way that computers will be able to understand it! In fact, me and my buddies have already developed version 1.0 of this language. It's a little hard to pronounce, but that's because it's only meant to be read! It's perfect for use in the sciences: it's entirely logical, everyone can read it, it allows for no misunderstanding, or double meanings, or ambiguity. It's perfect!"
[effect] the economy sees more and more demand for computer whisperers.
[Validity] No AI Personhood, has computers

Title: Watch your tongue, young man!
Description: Students from a university in a far-flung corner of northeastern @@NAME@@ have taken over their campus as a satirical protest that has gotten out of hand. Their demand? To be allowed to hand in their assignments, papers, and theses written in local dialect rather than in the proper, polished, academic vernacular. You've been called in to mediate following threats that students would stage similar protests in the other far-flung corners of your nation.
Validity: No devolution?

Option 1: "Well, well, what's dis 'ere? De big boss, visitin' our campus! Fanks for listenin' to us! Dis university only wants our papers handed in written in posh proper language, but it's limitin' my foughts and that! I first have to fink up my entire argument, den translate it into this... fancy, artificial, arbitrary, academic language that nobody speaks. Can you tell my professors to allow our stuff to be submitted in the dialects dat we actually all fink in?"
[effect] students churn out papers quicker than ever before but nobody can read them.

Option 2: "Dear @@LEADER@@, this cannot possibly be. We cannot let the students tell us what to do! As for their arguments, surely we cannot allow them to use this vulgar local tongue? Aside from that, we in these hallowed halls of learning are trying to share our science with researchers all over @@NAME@@, let alone @@REGION@@! They all know the academic vernacular, but if it's all composed in this... this... disgusting regional parlance, they can't understand it! Please let us tell all the students to do the rational fing, er, thing, and write the proper, correct, and formal standard!"
[effect] a new generation of undergraduates acquires the ability to produce verbose and ultimately pointlessly long run-on sentences as long as they make the word count.

Option 3: One of your advisors, who himself is from this region, takes you aside. "There's somethin' to say for both sides. Whatever you choose, one side will be unhappy. But! There's a neutral solution to this! All universities and colleges should use a dead language that is an acquired medium to everyone. The classical language of education of our ancestors, or classical Daguoan, or ancient Maxtopian, for all I care! It might be an inconvenience at first, but it's a fair and honest inconvenience for everyone equally!"
[effect] bookstores are full of phrasebooks for extinct languages.

Option 4: One of the Comp Sci students, also present at the protest, has a different idea. "We should develop a new, logical, language. And we should make it structured in such a way that computers will be able to understand it! In fact, me and my buddies have already developed version 1.0 of this language. It's a little hard to pronounce, but that's because it's only meant to be read! It's perfect for use in the sciences: it's entirely logical, everyone can read it, it allows for no misunderstanding, or double meanings, or ambiguity. It's perfect!"
[effect] the economy sees more and more demand for computer whisperers.
[Validity] No AI Personhood, has computers


Title: Watch your language, young man!
Description: Students from a university in a far-flung corner of northeastern @@NAME@@ have taken over their campus as a satirical protest that has gotten out of hand. Their demand? To be allowed to hand in their assignments, papers, and theses written in local dialect rather than in the proper, polished, academic vernacular. You've been called in to mediate following threats that students would stage similar protests in the other far-flung corners of the nation.
Validity: No devolution?

Option 1: "Well, well, what's dis 'ere? De big boss, visitin' our campus! Fanks for listenin' to us! Dis university only wants our papers handed in written in posh proper language, but it's limitin' my foughts and that! I first have to fink up my entire argument, den translate it into this... fancy, artificial, arbitrary, academic language that nobody speaks. Can you tell my professors to allow our stuff to be submitted in the dialects dat we actually all fink in?"
[effect] students churn out papers quicker than ever before but nobody can read them.

Option 2: "Dear @@LEADER@@, this cannot possibly be. We cannot let the students tell us what to do! As for their arguments, surely we cannot allow them to use this vulgar local tongue? Aside from that, we in these hallowed halls of learning are trying to share our science with researchers all over @@NAME@@! They all know the academic vernacular, but if it's all composed in this... this... disgusting regional parlance, they can't understand it! Please let us tell all the students to do the rational fing, er, thing, and write the proper, correct, and formal standard!"
[effect] a new generation of undergraduates acquires the ability to produce verbose and ultimately pointlessly long run-on sentences as long as they make the word count.

Option 3: One of your advisors, who himself is from this region, takes you aside. "There's somethin' to say for both sides. Whatever you choose, one side will be unhappy. But! There's a neutral solution to this! All universities and colleges should use a dead language that is an acquired medium to everyone: Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, Classical Daguoan, for all I care! It might be an inconvenience at first, but it's a fair and honest inconvenience for everyone equally!"
[effect] bookstores are full of phrasebooks for extinct languages.

Option 4: One of the Comp Sci students, also present at the protest, has a different idea. "We should develop a new, logical, language. And we should make it so structured that computers can understand it! In fact, me and my buddies have already developed version 1.0 of this language. It's a little hard to pronounce, but it's only meant to be read! It's perfect for use in the sciences: it's entirely logical, everyone can read it, it allows for no misunderstanding, or double meanings, or ambiguity. It's perfect!"
[effect] the economy sees more and more demand for computer whisperers.
[Validity] No AI Personhood, has computers
Last edited by Ko-oren on Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:58 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Pythaga
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Pythaga » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:26 am

You'll probably want a has computers validity on option 4 as well.

I think the second and third effect lines are pretty good, but I'd recommend changing out the effects for options 1 and 4. Unfortunately I really can't come up with any ideas to help you.

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Ko-oren
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Posts: 5410
Founded: Nov 26, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ko-oren » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:51 am

Pythaga wrote:You'll probably want a has computers validity on option 4 as well.

Of course! Somehow I did think of AI Personhood but not of Has Computers.

Pythaga wrote:I think the second and third effect lines are pretty good, but I'd recommend changing out the effects for options 1 and 4. Unfortunately I really can't come up with any ideas to help you.

I've come up with new lines for 2 and 3. They're still not very good, but I'll keep trying until I hit on something.

Thanks!
Last edited by Ko-oren on Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Trigramme: KOR - Demonym: Ko-orenite - Population: 27.270.096
Sports Domestic Sports Newswires - RPable People - Info Factbook Storefronts Loro Language Schools - Goliæth Sports Café - Call for bids!
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:59 pm

the other far-flung corners of the nation.

Might be personal preference, but I feel "the other far-flung corners of your nation" would sound a bit better. Feel free to discard this comment!

students churn out papers quicker than ever before but nobody can read them.{/box]
I feel this effect line could be a little sharper. Perhaps consider something about papers being always turned in on time or well in advance, but that nobody can read them. Or the professors can't, anyway.

[box]to share our science with researchers all over @@NAME@@!

Probably not just @@NAME@@, but also the scientific community all over the world. Perhaps you could swap @@NAME@@ with @@REGION@@ or also add in a line about that.

Latin, Greek

Do these appear in the NationStates universe?

And we should make it so structured that computers can understand it!

Consider changing this to "And we should make it structured in such a way that computers will be able to understand it!"

but it's only meant to be read!

Consider changing this to "but that's because it's only meant to be read!"

Overall, I really like this issue! There are a few other issues about vernaculars and local dialects, but they don't deal with the academic society specific, only @@NAME@@ as a whole.

EDIT: Oh, for the title, perhaps consider changing it to "Watch Your Tongue, Young Man!" or "Watch Your Mouth, Young Man!", albeit 'tongue' would be really fitting since it also can mean "language".
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:41 pm

Small nitpick, why do we assume that @@NAME@@'s remote areas are in the north-east? Why not say a remote area, and leave it at that?
If you're against political parties who support the CCP, then vote against the Australian Labor Party
New Zealand's Prime Minister Jacinda Aardern is so deeply in love with human rights and Muslim lives that she's actively going out of her way to refuse to acknowledge China's persecution of Uyghurs. It's impossible to love human rights & Muslim lives more than that!
Until if and when the Spanish language evolves to allow for gender-neutrality to not be impossible, (which will take at least centuries), the concept of "LatinX" is completely ridiculous
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:49 pm

Also, option 3

Η Ελληνική γλώσσα δεν πέθανε. Εκατομμύρια άτομα ακομα μιλάνε Ελληνικά σαν πρώτη γλώσσα. Αυτό πού ήθελες να πεις είναι ότι ή Αρχεία Ελληνική γλώσσα πέθανε, αλλά όμως δεν πέθανε. Άλλαξε. (The Greek isn't dead. Millions of people still speak Greek as their first language. What you wanted to say was that ancient Greek died. But it didn't die. It just evolved)
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you're against political parties who support the CCP, then vote against the Australian Labor Party
New Zealand's Prime Minister Jacinda Aardern is so deeply in love with human rights and Muslim lives that she's actively going out of her way to refuse to acknowledge China's persecution of Uyghurs. It's impossible to love human rights & Muslim lives more than that!
Until if and when the Spanish language evolves to allow for gender-neutrality to not be impossible, (which will take at least centuries), the concept of "LatinX" is completely ridiculous
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Westinor
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Postby Westinor » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:30 pm

Not sure if you can use irl languages in reference (Latin, Sanskrit, Greek)
Authorship - Things I've written!

Stay safe, wear a mask, and have a great day! :)

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Trotterdam
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:16 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Also, option 3

Η Ελληνική γλώσσα δεν πέθανε. Εκατομμύρια άτομα ακομα μιλάνε Ελληνικά σαν πρώτη γλώσσα. Αυτό πού ήθελες να πεις είναι ότι ή Αρχεία Ελληνική γλώσσα πέθανε, αλλά όμως δεν πέθανε. Άλλαξε. (The Greek isn't dead. Millions of people still speak Greek as their first language. What you wanted to say was that ancient Greek died. But it didn't die. It just evolved)
By that logic Latin didn't die either. It evolved into Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian, etc.

Greek didn't split into multiple languages, so the same word still gets used to describe both the modern and ancient languages, even though they've changed enough over the centuries to no longer be mutually comprehensible with each other. Still, 99% of people who don't come from Greece, when they say "Greek", mean Ancient Greek.

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Ko-oren
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ko-oren » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:06 am

Daarwyrth wrote:
the other far-flung corners of the nation.

Might be personal preference, but I feel "the other far-flung corners of your nation" would sound a bit better. Feel free to discard this comment!

students churn out papers quicker than ever before but nobody can read them.{/box]
I feel this effect line could be a little sharper. Perhaps consider something about papers being always turned in on time or well in advance, but that nobody can read them. Or the professors can't, anyway.

[box]to share our science with researchers all over @@NAME@@!

Probably not just @@NAME@@, but also the scientific community all over the world. Perhaps you could swap @@NAME@@ with @@REGION@@ or also add in a line about that.

Latin, Greek

Do these appear in the NationStates universe?

And we should make it so structured that computers can understand it!

Consider changing this to "And we should make it structured in such a way that computers will be able to understand it!"

but it's only meant to be read!

Consider changing this to "but that's because it's only meant to be read!"

Overall, I really like this issue! There are a few other issues about vernaculars and local dialects, but they don't deal with the academic society specific, only @@NAME@@ as a whole.

EDIT: Oh, for the title, perhaps consider changing it to "Watch Your Tongue, Young Man!" or "Watch Your Mouth, Young Man!", albeit 'tongue' would be really fitting since it also can mean "language".

I'll keep chipping away at these effect lines. I don't want to allude to the professors not knowing the local dialect as in option 2's slip up - they do know, they just want to hide the fact that they're dialect speakers as well.

I was thinking of putting World there, but the rest of the world is already unlikely to know @@NAME@@'s language. I think I'll solve it by phrasing it as "@@NAME@@, let alone the world!". Good catch, thanks!

The other points about rephrasing some of it are great, thanks! Still debating the title... 'tongue' is a good possibility.
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Ko-oren
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Postby Ko-oren » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:09 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Small nitpick, why do we assume that @@NAME@@'s remote areas are in the north-east? Why not say a remote area, and leave it at that?


Plenty of other issues already do this.

Australian rePublic wrote:Also, option 3

Η Ελληνική γλώσσα δεν πέθανε. Εκατομμύρια άτομα ακομα μιλάνε Ελληνικά σαν πρώτη γλώσσα. Αυτό πού ήθελες να πεις είναι ότι ή Αρχεία Ελληνική γλώσσα πέθανε, αλλά όμως δεν πέθανε. Άλλαξε. (The Greek isn't dead. Millions of people still speak Greek as their first language. What you wanted to say was that ancient Greek died. But it didn't die. It just evolved)


I thought that would be clear from context. For the rest, see Trotterdam's response.

Westinor wrote:Not sure if you can use irl languages in reference (Latin, Sanskrit, Greek)


I was struggling with that. Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, or even English have never been mentioned in existing issues. I did 'translate' classical Chinese to classical Daguoan, but I wanted to have a few options there. The only other way I could think of to solve this is by a really roundabout description 'classical language of education of our ancestors' but that's so... dry. I think I have no other option, though.

Draft 1.1 is up!
Last edited by Ko-oren on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:17 am

Ko-oren wrote:Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, or even English have never been mentioned in existing issues.
Not by name, but they've clearly been discussed before.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:15 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Also, option 3

Η Ελληνική γλώσσα δεν πέθανε. Εκατομμύρια άτομα ακομα μιλάνε Ελληνικά σαν πρώτη γλώσσα. Αυτό πού ήθελες να πεις είναι ότι ή Αρχεία Ελληνική γλώσσα πέθανε, αλλά όμως δεν πέθανε. Άλλαξε. (The Greek isn't dead. Millions of people still speak Greek as their first language. What you wanted to say was that ancient Greek died. But it didn't die. It just evolved)
By that logic Latin didn't die either. It evolved into Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian, etc.

Greek didn't split into multiple languages, so the same word still gets used to describe both the modern and ancient languages, even though they've changed enough over the centuries to no longer be mutually comprehensible with each other. Still, 99% of people who don't come from Greece, when they say "Greek", mean Ancient Greek.

Still, it'd be better to specify
If you're against political parties who support the CCP, then vote against the Australian Labor Party
New Zealand's Prime Minister Jacinda Aardern is so deeply in love with human rights and Muslim lives that she's actively going out of her way to refuse to acknowledge China's persecution of Uyghurs. It's impossible to love human rights & Muslim lives more than that!
Until if and when the Spanish language evolves to allow for gender-neutrality to not be impossible, (which will take at least centuries), the concept of "LatinX" is completely ridiculous
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Ko-oren
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Founded: Nov 26, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ko-oren » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:05 am

So, this was still sitting around. I've cleaned up the flowery language in the premise and option 1 a little by getting rid of the synonyms. If anyone could take one more look at this, thanks!
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Ko-oren
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ko-oren » Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:27 pm

Another month passed, and now it's got names and slightly more in-character writing. Any thoughts?
Trigramme: KOR - Demonym: Ko-orenite - Population: 27.270.096
Sports Domestic Sports Newswires - RPable People - Info Factbook Storefronts Loro Language Schools - Goliæth Sports Café - Call for bids!
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:47 pm

One thing we gotta consider here is manpower. Do unis have the manpower to hire people to mark all the assignments in various langauges across all fields of studied? Is it possible to even have that much manpower? Are we talking langauges or dialects (of which there is a fine line).

Let's say for example, this were to apply in Australia, then every univeristy would have to hire people who are able to not only speak Aboriginal langauges, but they'd have to know about the subject matter to be able to mark assignments in that langauge. Contrast this to Greece or Italy, where people in different parts of Greece or Italy speak slightly different dialects of Greek or Italian. How different are they from eachother? Is it just slang? Like are they petitioning to be able to write in slang? Because whilst Greek and Italian have various dialects, there just slang, whilst formal Greek/Italian, the kind you'd use in universities or when writing any formal document, is standardised. And then we have issues like Mandarin vs Cantonese in a university in Shenzen. Or are we talking the ability to write essays in German, rather than English when in Germany? Or are we petitioning for the right to write in Singlish when in Singapore? (V.s. British English in the UK or American English in the USA)

I guess my point here is, what do you mean by "different dialects" and how can it apply to more countries that may have any of those types of different dialects
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Postby Ko-oren » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:57 am

Australian rePublic wrote:One thing we gotta consider here is manpower. Do unis have the manpower to hire people to mark all the assignments in various langauges across all fields of studied? Is it possible to even have that much manpower? Are we talking langauges or dialects (of which there is a fine line).

Let's say for example, this were to apply in Australia, then every univeristy would have to hire people who are able to not only speak Aboriginal langauges, but they'd have to know about the subject matter to be able to mark assignments in that langauge. Contrast this to Greece or Italy, where people in different parts of Greece or Italy speak slightly different dialects of Greek or Italian. How different are they from eachother? Is it just slang? Like are they petitioning to be able to write in slang? Because whilst Greek and Italian have various dialects, there just slang, whilst formal Greek/Italian, the kind you'd use in universities or when writing any formal document, is standardised. And then we have issues like Mandarin vs Cantonese in a university in Shenzen. Or are we talking the ability to write essays in German, rather than English when in Germany? Or are we petitioning for the right to write in Singlish when in Singapore? (V.s. British English in the UK or American English in the USA)

I guess my point here is, what do you mean by "different dialects" and how can it apply to more countries that may have any of those types of different dialects

Right, the idea I had in mind was that only the local languages and dialects would be accepted per university: I did not intend it as an 'all languages at all schools' solution. Manpower doesn't really come into play: as far as I can tell, issues aren't really limited by practicality - and besides, only allowing local varieties doesn't require as much manpower. Given my nation ICly would be affected by it (as many languages are spoken), that's what I had in mind.
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