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by The Rich Port » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:35 pm
by Borderlands of Rojava » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:21 am
The Rich Port wrote:Considering that it's been a hundred or so years since Puerto Rico was inducted into the American Empire, there's still laws on the books calling us "an alien culture" and that they let Puerto Rico languish in a Commonwealth limbo instead of passing laws that ratify it as a state, "assimilating" to a culture is a futile endeavour. You're assimilated when the dominant culture decides you're assimilated, and that can happen from seconds to centuries.
And I say that as someone who loves America and its history and what it stands for, that being acceptance, freedom, and compassion, who desperately wishes Puerto Rico were accepted into America. America is a country of immigrants and it is therefore composed of all cultures. What defines Americans is a respect for democracy, a love of diversity, and a friendliness towards others, which means many conservatives are not Americans in my eyes.
At the end of the day the citizens are the ones who define what it means to be a citizen, and that your actions are what make America. Be what you want the country to be. Live up to your ideal. America might have been founded on the pursuit of wealth and the preservation of slavery and the genocide of Native Americans, but we don't have to let it stay that way.
by The Rich Port » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:26 am
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:The Rich Port wrote:Considering that it's been a hundred or so years since Puerto Rico was inducted into the American Empire, there's still laws on the books calling us "an alien culture" and that they let Puerto Rico languish in a Commonwealth limbo instead of passing laws that ratify it as a state, "assimilating" to a culture is a futile endeavour. You're assimilated when the dominant culture decides you're assimilated, and that can happen from seconds to centuries.
And I say that as someone who loves America and its history and what it stands for, that being acceptance, freedom, and compassion, who desperately wishes Puerto Rico were accepted into America. America is a country of immigrants and it is therefore composed of all cultures. What defines Americans is a respect for democracy, a love of diversity, and a friendliness towards others, which means many conservatives are not Americans in my eyes.
At the end of the day the citizens are the ones who define what it means to be a citizen, and that your actions are what make America. Be what you want the country to be. Live up to your ideal. America might have been founded on the pursuit of wealth and the preservation of slavery and the genocide of Native Americans, but we don't have to let it stay that way.
We're defined as an alien culture? What?
What kind of language is that? Calling part of the US "an alien culture?"
by Libertarians » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:31 am
PR is not a state, and will not be a state in our life time because they cannot afford to pay federal income taxes without a massive bail out of PR's government. If PR became a state tomorrow, in order for the "state" government to pay on its debt it would become the state with the highest tax rate by a significant magnitude. It would crush the economy to have to pay federal taxes and continue to service the debt of PR and would cause a massive flight of capital from the island and benefit no one but those in Washington. It has little to do with cultural factors.The Rich Port wrote:Considering that it's been a hundred or so years since Puerto Rico was inducted into the American Empire, there's still laws on the books calling us "an alien culture" and that they let Puerto Rico languish in a Commonwealth limbo instead of passing laws that ratify it as a state, "assimilating" to a culture is a futile endeavour. You're assimilated when the dominant culture decides you're assimilated, and that can happen from seconds to centuries.
by Borderlands of Rojava » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:32 am
The Rich Port wrote:Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
We're defined as an alien culture? What?
What kind of language is that? Calling part of the US "an alien culture?"
https://www.history.com/news/puerto-ric ... ted-states
The Insular Cases. Thanks, Teddy Roosevelt, I knew you weren't my favorite president for no reason.
But in 1901, a series of legal opinions known as the Insular Cases argued that Puerto Rico and other territories ceded by the Spanish were full of “alien races” who couldn’t understand “Anglo-Saxon principles.”
by The Rich Port » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:33 am
Libertarians wrote:Eventually you will reach a generation that does not want to marry within their own ethnic group, which would for sure be the last generation to be non-integrated. Integration may occur prior to that, but willingness/ability to intermarry seems to me the best way to determine someone is culturally essentially part of the same group.PR is not a state, and will not be a state in our life time because they cannot afford to pay federal income taxes without a massive bail out of PR's government. If PR became a state tomorrow, in order for the "state" government to pay on its debt it would become the state with the highest tax rate by a significant magnitude. It would crush the economy to have to pay federal taxes and continue to service the debt of PR and would cause a massive flight of capital from the island and benefit no one but those in Washington. It has little to do with cultural factors.The Rich Port wrote:Considering that it's been a hundred or so years since Puerto Rico was inducted into the American Empire, there's still laws on the books calling us "an alien culture" and that they let Puerto Rico languish in a Commonwealth limbo instead of passing laws that ratify it as a state, "assimilating" to a culture is a futile endeavour. You're assimilated when the dominant culture decides you're assimilated, and that can happen from seconds to centuries.
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:38 am
Libertarians wrote:Eventually you will reach a generation that does not want to marry within their own ethnic group, which would for sure be the last generation to be non-integrated. Integration may occur prior to that, but willingness/ability to intermarry seems to me the best way to determine someone is culturally essentially part of the same group.
by Libertarians » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:49 am
The Rich Port wrote:Libertarians wrote:Eventually you will reach a generation that does not want to marry within their own ethnic group, which would for sure be the last generation to be non-integrated. Integration may occur prior to that, but willingness/ability to intermarry seems to me the best way to determine someone is culturally essentially part of the same group. PR is not a state, and will not be a state in our life time because they cannot afford to pay federal income taxes without a massive bail out of PR's government. If PR became a state tomorrow, in order for the "state" government to pay on its debt it would become the state with the highest tax rate by a significant magnitude. It would crush the economy to have to pay federal taxes and continue to service the debt of PR and would cause a massive flight of capital from the island and benefit no one but those in Washington. It has little to do with cultural factors.
Gotta make sure Trump has enough fake money to print.
If the economy was the factor and there were zero cultural factors, why wasn't Puerto Rico made a state in the past when the economy wasn't in free-fall?
by Kubra » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:18 am
it's funny cuz it started among the Hawaiians, but it didn't get exported until the mainland US really got into the stuff, and then all the tropical Asians found out about it and they were like "genius, why didn't we think of this??"
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:25 am
Libertarians wrote:The Rich Port wrote:
Gotta make sure Trump has enough fake money to print.
If the economy was the factor and there were zero cultural factors, why wasn't Puerto Rico made a state in the past when the economy wasn't in free-fall?
I am talking about right now. As of right now, there is zero chance it can happen. The democrats looked at doing it in the last several years, and the GAO or some such office issued a report which detailed how much of an economic calamity it would be to do at this point. PR needs to solve its debt problem before it can be a state, or, most likely, we need to negotiate with them a complete separation that allows those working now to get the SS and Medicare benefits they paid for.
In terms of past generations, who knows? That's an interesting question as to why Hawaii had enough desire that their territorial government attempted to join the US proper. As far as I can recall history, both territories were given territorial governments in the post-WWII era when decolonization was the major international focus. Why HI made an effort through it's territorial government to join the US relatively quickly and PR didn't (to my knowledge) didn't is an interesting question. I wonder if Pearl Harbor impacted the thoughts of Hawaii in different ways?
Washington is not benefiting much for PR. When there is a hurricane, we send significant aid despite the fact that PR pays nothing into FEMA. You do pay in to SS and Medicare, but like everyone else you will pull out more than you pay in to that system in your life and the general tax payer is going to have to pay the difference.
The current situation has no upside for US taxpayers except maybe military basing rights. We spend far more on PR than we receive, especially if you factor in that PR doesn't have to pay for any sort of defense like every other western society.
by Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:34 am
by Libertarians » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:46 am
The problem with is how high their state income/sales tax would have to be to continue to pay on that $70 billion. Currently their income tax is north of 30% IIRC, and while they would be able to cut spending in some areas because federal spending would take over, servicing that debt would still require them to have a massive tax burden. The total tax burden that fell (state & federal) that fell on a resident of PR would be far in excess of any other state, and they would not be getting any extra value for that. It would cause massive disinvestment in PR due to the higher taxes than in mainland US, and cause significant economic harm.Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Or continuation of their current status: that's always been quite popular in PR. Some tweaks may be needed, but of course they'll have to come from the side with the power.
As to their debt, is it really that much compared to the US Federal debt?
$73 billion apparently. I just don't accept that's so much that it should rule out statehood. Just reneging on it wouldn't be good though, if only because so much of it is owed to Puerto Ricans! The US could take on the debt, leaving Puerto Rico owing the money to the US Treasury, and this would be good because the interest rate could be set near to the US borrowing rate.
Yeah, no. That's the story politicians sold us about what social security was supposed to be, and today's seniors passionately refuse to hear any other explanation of the program, but it isn't true. The first people who drew social security never paid a dime into it. The first dollars paid into social security did not go into a trust set aside for when that generation hit retirement, they went to pay the first people who drew social security. It was always pay as you go, and the trust fund had essentially a zero balance until the 80s when Reagan realized there wasn't going to be enough coming in to cover this current Boomer wave. So the Boomers were asked to pay a few percent more, and at that late date they started setting money aside for when the boomer's retired. But they did not set aside enough, and even when every dollar that was paid into SS is repaid with interest there is no way the current system can remain sustainable without our generation paying massive amounts more than they did. SS wasn't a scam, but it also wasn't meant to be what the boomer's passionately believe it is. The money they want wasn't stolen, it was just never paid in. And our generation is going to get screwed because no one was willing to talk harshly to boomers when it was clear in the 90s and 00s that there still was not enough being paid in.Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Washington is not benefiting much for PR. When there is a hurricane, we send significant aid despite the fact that PR pays nothing into FEMA. You do pay in to SS and Medicare, but like everyone else you will pull out more than you pay in to that system in your life and the general tax payer is going to have to pay the difference.
Well not exactly. You take out more dollars than you put in and that is still viable, because notionally it's still a trust fund. The taxpayer is actually paying what the trust fund is owed, since it was looted by government to spend on nice things for ... the taxpayer. I think it's 4% ... a "deeming rate" that is supposed to approximate investment earnings of the money that was supposed to be "held in trust".
Closely related is the concept of inflation. People who paid in during their working life, paid with dollars that were worth more. So when it's time for them to take back out, they have to be paid more dollars, that are now worth less.
None of this is to say that Puerto Ricans are or aren't getting a sweet deal from Medicare and SS. Just that elderly recipients in general aren't scamming the system by taking out more than they put in: the system was designed that way from the start.
Well, I mean, again, based on the debt levels never.Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:The current situation has no upside for US taxpayers except maybe military basing rights. We spend far more on PR than we receive, especially if you factor in that PR doesn't have to pay for any sort of defense like every other western society.
Some states also get a lot more than they pay. Ironically they're the states that are always complaining about "federal over-reach" but I guess you can't expect gratitude for charity. They get the money on the basis of need, they pay according to their incomes, it's all quite fair and arguably it's gradually having the effect of making poor states less poor. The socialist in me has to approve of that, whatever the political alignment of those states.
Puerto Rico would I think be a real outlier. As a new state, it would take in a lot more money than it could pay in taxes. The real question is "for how long?"
by Geneviev » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:50 am
Ghost Land wrote:Geneviev wrote:I agree on the Sauerkraut. Rotkraut is much better. Anyway, claiming partial German ancestry doesn't really make someone German. After a certain point, they're just American, and that's where most of that group is. So they're not really integrated as much as already American for generations.
I think that was the definition of integrated being used here, and at least one person definitely considers us integrated here.
Exactly; that's what I was trying to say. I'd say English, Irish, Dutch, German, and Scandinavian ethnic groups are already all amalgamated into the collective American cultural identity, especially considering the typical person who is culturally white American may very well be, for example, 46% German, 17% Irish, 14% Swedish, 13% English, and 10% Dutch. Someone who comes over fresh from a small village in Germany and hasn't been exposed to too much American culture might have some "exotic" factor when they first arrive here, but that's due to being directly German as opposed to being a fifth-generation American of 46% German descent.
I am of approximately 65% German, 15% Danish, 7% Norwegian, and 13% other European descent. Do I identify as "German-American"? No; I'm full-blown white American, as are my parents and grandparents. (Certain great-grandparents perhaps not as much, as my great-great-grandfather was born in Denmark, but that's beside the point.) To me this is the test of a fully integrated and assimilated group: when you refer to yourself and your family as being (country of residence), as opposed to a hyphenated form (i.e. American, not German-American or French-American or Ugandan-American). I'd say, as mentioned, Anglo-Germano-Celtic ethnic groups all fit this criterion other than fresh-off-the-boat immigrants from those countries. West Slavs are mostly there too; there are plenty of people of Polish descent in my area who've been here forever and are indistinguishable from Americans of non-Polish descent other than maybe their last name ending in "ski" or "wicz". There is still a strong Italian-American identity, so I wouldn't say Italians are completely assimilated into our culture, but they are considered "white" by most people except my dad (he refers to Italians as "European Negroes", but that's a different topic altogether). I'd say in general, "American" identity and culture refers to white American identity and culture, as there are separate Asian-American, Indian-American, Native American, and African-American identities that can overlap with American identity and culture but are still in many ways distinct from it; the African-American culture is different from white American culture due to different backgrounds and experiences, and no matter how much time passes, I don't think everyone will ever be fully assimilated, nor should they be. My mantra is, integrate (learn English and participate in American society), but don't necessarily assimilate to the point of losing all of your own culture.
by Bear Stearns » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:08 pm
The Rich Port wrote:Considering that it's been a hundred or so years since Puerto Rico was inducted into the American Empire, there's still laws on the books calling us "an alien culture" and that they let Puerto Rico languish in a Commonwealth limbo instead of passing laws that ratify it as a state, "assimilating" to a culture is a futile endeavour. You're assimilated when the dominant culture decides you're assimilated, and that can happen from seconds to centuries.
And I say that as someone who loves America and its history and what it stands for, that being acceptance, freedom, and compassion, who desperately wishes Puerto Rico were accepted into America. America is a country of immigrants and it is therefore composed of all cultures. What defines Americans is a respect for democracy, a love of diversity, and a friendliness towards others, which means many conservatives are not Americans in my eyes.
by Ghost Land » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:46 pm
Geneviev wrote:Ghost Land wrote:Exactly; that's what I was trying to say. I'd say English, Irish, Dutch, German, and Scandinavian ethnic groups are already all amalgamated into the collective American cultural identity, especially considering the typical person who is culturally white American may very well be, for example, 46% German, 17% Irish, 14% Swedish, 13% English, and 10% Dutch. Someone who comes over fresh from a small village in Germany and hasn't been exposed to too much American culture might have some "exotic" factor when they first arrive here, but that's due to being directly German as opposed to being a fifth-generation American of 46% German descent.
I am of approximately 65% German, 15% Danish, 7% Norwegian, and 13% other European descent. Do I identify as "German-American"? No; I'm full-blown white American, as are my parents and grandparents. (Certain great-grandparents perhaps not as much, as my great-great-grandfather was born in Denmark, but that's beside the point.) To me this is the test of a fully integrated and assimilated group: when you refer to yourself and your family as being (country of residence), as opposed to a hyphenated form (i.e. American, not German-American or French-American or Ugandan-American). I'd say, as mentioned, Anglo-Germano-Celtic ethnic groups all fit this criterion other than fresh-off-the-boat immigrants from those countries. West Slavs are mostly there too; there are plenty of people of Polish descent in my area who've been here forever and are indistinguishable from Americans of non-Polish descent other than maybe their last name ending in "ski" or "wicz". There is still a strong Italian-American identity, so I wouldn't say Italians are completely assimilated into our culture, but they are considered "white" by most people except my dad (he refers to Italians as "European Negroes", but that's a different topic altogether). I'd say in general, "American" identity and culture refers to white American identity and culture, as there are separate Asian-American, Indian-American, Native American, and African-American identities that can overlap with American identity and culture but are still in many ways distinct from it; the African-American culture is different from white American culture due to different backgrounds and experiences, and no matter how much time passes, I don't think everyone will ever be fully assimilated, nor should they be. My mantra is, integrate (learn English and participate in American society), but don't necessarily assimilate to the point of losing all of your own culture.
Ancestry is generally irrelevant. If someone has one German ancestor who immigrated here in the 19th century, they're just not German. Comparing Americans who have no connection with Germany with actual Germans, who maintain German culture and traditions in America, is not really right. Germans are, for the most part, not integrated. Americans who claim German ancestry don't need to be integrated and shouldn't be used to judge Germans.
by Bassoe » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:04 pm
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