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Individual Rights vs Collective Rights: What’s The Right

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Soiled fruit roll ups
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Founded: Jun 25, 2020
Corporate Bordello

Postby Soiled fruit roll ups » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:07 pm

You have the right to spread shit. You dont have the right to spared jail for the harm this causes.
/thread
/vaccinedebate
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Kragholm Free States
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Kragholm Free States » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:59 pm

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that a virus is capable of caring about your political affiliation.
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Major-Tom
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Major-Tom » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:27 pm

Kragholm Free States wrote:You seem to be labouring under the delusion that a virus is capable of caring about your political affiliation.


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Vetalia
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:40 pm

Baphomet Union wrote:I do feel sympathy for people who get it. Yet by showing at a Trump rally , they mark themselves (unfortunately )for death.


Death and/or serious illness is extremely unlikely unless they are very old, very sick or both...there may be freak cases that buck that trend but it's been consistent from the beginning. That being said, I think this is an important point to consider; there is a huge difference in potential risk of exposing others depending on individual circumstances. It's one thing if you live alone or with people who are unlikely to develop serious illness with limited contact with vulnerable individuals, it's a whole other situation if you are in that kind of environment or work in a field where you interact with those kinds of individuals.

Of course, there is also the obvious situation where if someone is symptomatic they should not be in public under any circumstances.

And at the same time there is also a responsibility for those who are vulnerable to take their own precautions. They should be self-isolating as much as possible rather than taking unnecessary risk of exposing themselves to the virus (that is unless they are willing to accept the risk).
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Tinhampton
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Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:42 pm

Is this supposed to be a thread about "Individual Rights vs Collective Rights" as a broad topic, or a thread about whether people should wear facemasks and socially distance?
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Eternal Cesken
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Founded: Feb 17, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eternal Cesken » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:46 pm

Baphomet Union wrote:I thought about this for a long time. I’ve questioned why I am saying anything to Republicans. But hey, not all of you should die. Ready ? Joining a Trump rally without face masks in close proximity to each other will kill you. It really will, and unfortunately, it will make your breathing messed up and there is a chance you will eventually die from it.
However, you have a perfect right to go, you have a perfect right not to wear a mask and you have a perfect right to die. But what you Don’t have a perfect right is to pass it on to us and you don’t have a perfect right to spread Coronavirus 19 to us. So while you’re spreading the virus, can you isolate yourself and die alone ?
So it rings it to a question of individual rights vs collective rights. Do we have a right to complain about Republicans catching coronavirus 19, or do you have the individual right to spread the coronavirus to everyone else ? I want to see how you solve it.


You are a satanist, your words are meaningless
/thread
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Kyundao
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Founded: Jan 02, 2020
Corporate Police State

Postby Kyundao » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:02 pm

If I were the government, I would do what Taiwan did: mandate that everyone wear a mask, that way the virus doesn't spread to anyone (especially the elderly, who are at risk the most) while people go about their daily lives.

Best of both worlds.

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James_xenoland
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Father Knows Best State

Postby James_xenoland » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:52 pm

What the hell is a "collective right"?! There is no such thing. A fallacy of logic a/o a willful disregarding of the completely opposite and opposing nature of the concepts. One is about dignity, respect and freedom... The other about control. A convenient doublespeak cloaked in the language of rights and freedom, but leading only to the "freedom" to excuse abuse and authoritarianism/totalitarianism for it's masterminds. Though usually, thankfully, little more than leftist and collectivist wankery.
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Ceskian Armed Forces High Command
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jul 03, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Ceskian Armed Forces High Command » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:06 pm

Baphomet Union wrote:
Eternal Cesken wrote:
You are a satanist, your words are meaningless
/thread


Yes. I am a Satanist. And...?


and a homosexual

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US-SSR
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Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby US-SSR » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:26 pm

This is not a case of whether you can worship freely, demand a trial by jury or piss in your own backyard. This is a matter of public health. The message from not wearing a mask in a grocery store or a crowd isn't "give me liberty or give me death," it's "I'll do as I damn well please and to hell with my neighbors."
8:46

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Soiled fruit roll ups
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Founded: Jun 25, 2020
Corporate Bordello

Postby Soiled fruit roll ups » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:38 pm

US-SSR wrote:This is not a case of whether you can worship freely, demand a trial by jury or piss in your own backyard. This is a matter of public health. The message from not wearing a mask in a grocery store or a crowd isn't "give me liberty or give me death," it's "I'll do as I damn well please and to hell with my neighbors."


Yes and the only ethical way of dealing with that is litigation, not legislation.
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The Holy Mercurian Empire
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Posts: 100
Founded: Jan 28, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Holy Mercurian Empire » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:59 pm

Baphomet Union wrote:I thought about this for a long time. I’ve questioned why I am saying anything to Republicans. But hey, not all of you should die. Ready ? Joining a Trump rally without face masks in close proximity to each other will kill you. It really will, and unfortunately, it will make your breathing messed up and there is a chance you will eventually die from it.
However, you have a perfect right to go, you have a perfect right not to wear a mask and you have a perfect right to die. But what you Don’t have a perfect right is to pass it on to us and you don’t have a perfect right to spread Coronavirus 19 to us. So while you’re spreading the virus, can you isolate yourself and die alone ?
So it rings it to a question of individual rights vs collective rights. Do we have a right to complain about Republicans catching coronavirus 19, or do you have the individual right to spread the coronavirus to everyone else ? I want to see how you solve it.

I could ask the same question of everyone who's attended a BLM protest this year.

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Tinhampton
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6997
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:03 pm

Baphomet Union wrote:I’ve questioned why I am saying anything to Republicans... Joining a Trump rally without face masks in close proximity to each other will kill you[,] make your breathing messed up and there is a chance you will eventually die from it... you have a perfect right to go, you have a perfect right not to wear a mask and you have a perfect right to die. But what you Don’t have a perfect right is to pass it on to us and you don’t have a perfect right to spread Coronavirus 19 to us. So while you’re spreading the virus, can you isolate yourself and die alone ?

Baphomet Union wrote:I do feel sympathy for people who get [coronavirus]. Yet by showing at a Trump rally , they mark themselves (unfortunately )for death.

Baphomet Union wrote:[Some people] are 1) attending Trump meetings with 2) no [f]ace cover 3) nor distancing them selves and they will get 4) get sick and 4) possibly die.

Baphomet Union wrote:I agree with [Soiled fruit roll ups]. But I am for thousands of Republicans getting the virus and dying aloe, painful death.

You have made four posts about people at Trump rallies "without face masks in close proximity to each other," but nothing about people at BLM rallies - or indeed any other large public setting - doing the same... :unsure:
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 319,372): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador ~ Achievements
3 SC Resolutions + 0 co-authored:
A: SC#250, Repeal "Liberate Femdom Empire" (87%)
A: SC#251, Commend Alasdair I Frosticus (91%)
A: SC#267, Repeal "Liberate The East Pacific" (90%)

1 GA Resolution + 1 co-authored:
A: GA#484, Disease Naming Compact (54%)
C: GA#491, Rights of the employed (54%)

0 Issues + 1 co-authored:
C: #1115, One in the Arm for @@LEADER@@?

73rd Cup of Harmony - CHAMPIONS

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Alistan Democratic Nation
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Founded: Apr 20, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alistan Democratic Nation » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:16 pm

I'm a bit disappointed this is not a thread about the broad discussion about rights and well being of the individual and the rights and well being of the collective. I will still put my opinion regardless as it is still relevant. I believe you have the right to do anything you want unless it harms others and their property or impedes their ability to exercise their rights. Like for example, you may join those rallies and catch the disease but you should make sure people around you who don't want to have it as well don't get infected.

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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:09 pm

Baphomet Union wrote:
Soiled fruit roll ups wrote:
Yes and the only ethical way of dealing with that is litigation, not legislation.


I agree with you. But I am for thousands of Republicans getting the virus and dying aloe, painful death.

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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:13 pm

False dichotomy. The “rights” of the collective and the “rights” of the individual are not mutually exclusive or fundamentally opposed. Often, the two align.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:28 am

James_xenoland wrote:What the hell is a "collective right"?! There is no such thing. A fallacy of logic a/o a willful disregarding of the completely opposite and opposing nature of the concepts. One is about dignity, respect and freedom... The other about control. A convenient doublespeak cloaked in the language of rights and freedom, but leading only to the "freedom" to excuse abuse and authoritarianism/totalitarianism for it's masterminds. Though usually, thankfully, little more than leftist and collectivist wankery.


"Corporations have a right to remain in business and not be seized by government" would be meaningless then.
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Kragholm Free States
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Founded: Mar 19, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Kragholm Free States » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:47 pm

Baphomet Union wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:


You have made four posts about people at Trump rallies "without face masks in close proximity to each other," but nothing about people at BLM rallies - or indeed any other large public setting - doing the same... :unsure:

Tell me, what do Black Lives Matter ( the organization), believe ? Please supply with the organization’s website. Thank you.


https://blacklivesmatter.com/

Now, care to make an actual argument? Or do you genuinely believe that the contagion risk of a mass gathering is dependent on whether or not the participants of that gathering are members of a formal organisation with a specified set of beliefs?
Formerly New Aerios. Don't bother adding posts.
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The Holy Mercurian Empire
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 100
Founded: Jan 28, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Holy Mercurian Empire » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:45 pm

Baphomet Union wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:


You have made four posts about people at Trump rallies "without face masks in close proximity to each other," but nothing about people at BLM rallies - or indeed any other large public setting - doing the same... :unsure:

Tell me, what do Black Lives Matter ( the organization), believe ? Please supply with the organization’s website. Thank you.

What do their beliefs matter? They're large groups of people, in close proximity, and facemasks aren't mandatory at their gatherings. Ergo, they are just as big of a threat in terms of coronavirus as the Republicans are.

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Northern Davincia
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Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:03 pm

Individual rights, every time, no matter the circumstance.
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James_xenoland
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Posts: 349
Founded: May 31, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby James_xenoland » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:41 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
James_xenoland wrote:What the hell is a "collective right"?! There is no such thing. A fallacy of logic a/o a willful disregarding of the completely opposite and opposing nature of the concepts. One is about dignity, respect and freedom... The other about control. A convenient doublespeak cloaked in the language of rights and freedom, but leading only to the "freedom" to excuse abuse and authoritarianism/totalitarianism for it's masterminds. Though usually, thankfully, little more than leftist and collectivist wankery.


"Corporations have a right to remain in business and not be seized by government" would be meaningless then.

Not really. On the basic business level that right falls under freedom of association. The individual right to freely associate and the right not to associate. There is no collective right to anything not derived solely from the individual right. This is where and why the issues with corporations (and to an extent, public companies as well) arose from. It's a big part of how we ended up with corporations having 'legal' (corporate) personhood. As there is no legal concept of "collective association" in the context of rights and freedoms.
One either fights for something, or falls for nothing.
One either stands for something, or falls for anything.

---
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."

---
Rikese wrote:From a 14 year old saying that children should vote, to a wankfest about whether or not God exists. Good job, you have all achieved new benchmarks in stupidity.

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Czechostan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 23, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Czechostan » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:55 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Baphomet Union wrote:I’ve questioned why I am saying anything to Republicans... Joining a Trump rally without face masks in close proximity to each other will kill you[,] make your breathing messed up and there is a chance you will eventually die from it... you have a perfect right to go, you have a perfect right not to wear a mask and you have a perfect right to die. But what you Don’t have a perfect right is to pass it on to us and you don’t have a perfect right to spread Coronavirus 19 to us. So while you’re spreading the virus, can you isolate yourself and die alone ?

Baphomet Union wrote:I do feel sympathy for people who get [coronavirus]. Yet by showing at a Trump rally , they mark themselves (unfortunately )for death.

Baphomet Union wrote:[Some people] are 1) attending Trump meetings with 2) no [f]ace cover 3) nor distancing them selves and they will get 4) get sick and 4) possibly die.

Baphomet Union wrote:I agree with [Soiled fruit roll ups]. But I am for thousands of Republicans getting the virus and dying aloe, painful death.

You have made four posts about people at Trump rallies "without face masks in close proximity to each other," but nothing about people at BLM rallies - or indeed any other large public setting - doing the same... :unsure:

At the BLM rallies I've been to, 99% of people wear masks, and they all take place outdoors. Proximity, yeah, that can be an issue at time. Not trying to say that BLM protesters aren't spreading the disease, but they're clearly acting with greater caution.

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-SARS-
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 156
Founded: May 02, 2020
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby -SARS- » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:39 pm

Maybe they enjoy being infected with deadly diseases? Everyone has their own kink.
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Big Jim P
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53986
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Big Jim P » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:19 am

Eternal Cesken wrote:
Baphomet Union wrote:I thought about this for a long time. I’ve questioned why I am saying anything to Republicans. But hey, not all of you should die. Ready ? Joining a Trump rally without face masks in close proximity to each other will kill you. It really will, and unfortunately, it will make your breathing messed up and there is a chance you will eventually die from it.
However, you have a perfect right to go, you have a perfect right not to wear a mask and you have a perfect right to die. But what you Don’t have a perfect right is to pass it on to us and you don’t have a perfect right to spread Coronavirus 19 to us. So while you’re spreading the virus, can you isolate yourself and die alone ?
So it rings it to a question of individual rights vs collective rights. Do we have a right to complain about Republicans catching coronavirus 19, or do you have the individual right to spread the coronavirus to everyone else ? I want to see how you solve it.


You are a satanist, your words are meaningless
/thread


:rofl:

Oh, wait a minute....

:D


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