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The Future of Public Education

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Geneviev
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The Future of Public Education

Postby Geneviev » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:54 pm

This is mainly a thread about the state of public education in America. Its public education system faces a number of challenges, which contribute to American students receiving lower scores on international examinations than those from other countries. According to Public School Review, these problems include large classes, poverty, a lack of technology, bullying and other problems with students, an emphasis on standardized testing, and budget cuts. For these reasons and others, many parents are choosing to educate their children differently with homeschooling, online schools, private schools, and charter and magnet schools. These are becoming more popular, and are encouraged by the federal government at the moment. Considering the current coronavirus crisis, they may even be forced to replace public education as it faces more budget problems.

What do you say, NSG? Will public education survive against other alternatives? Should it continue, or are any specific alternatives a better option for America?

In my opinion, public education is more reliable than other alternatives because it is less likely to be biased or teach something that is wrong, whereas others are less regulated and can have bias. For that reason, it should be protected and improved. However, I don't believe that that is possible if there are more budget cuts.
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Postby Xmara » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:06 pm

The US public education system is in desperate need of reforms, that's for sure.

As for alternatives, homeschooling is really only good if the person instructing the student is able to adequately teach them everything they need to know. I have a cousin whose wife homeschools their four kids, and it was one of the worst decisions they could have made, IMO. Her idea is that "eh, they'll get it eventually." Pretty sure her 7 year old can't even read.
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Postby Geneviev » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:09 pm

Xmara wrote:The US public education system is in desperate need of reforms, that's for sure.

As for alternatives, homeschooling is really only good if the person instructing the student is able to adequately teach them everything they need to know. I have a cousin whose wife homeschools their four kids, and it was one of the worst decisions they could have made, IMO. Her idea is that "eh, they'll get it eventually." Pretty sure her 7 year old can't even read.

I think homeschooling is one thing where parents would need a lot of help from people who might be more qualified.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:18 pm

Public schooling should be a right of children, which even their parents cannot over-ride.

Any child being home-schooled against their will, or sent to any private/religious school against their will, should be entitled to a social worker or police to collect them from home and take them to or from the public school they live in the catchment of.

If that's what they want, it is their right and the state should protect their rights.
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Postby Soiled fruit roll ups » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:20 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Xmara wrote:The US public education system is in desperate need of reforms, that's for sure.

As for alternatives, homeschooling is really only good if the person instructing the student is able to adequately teach them everything they need to know. I have a cousin whose wife homeschools their four kids, and it was one of the worst decisions they could have made, IMO. Her idea is that "eh, they'll get it eventually." Pretty sure her 7 year old can't even read.

I think homeschooling is one thing where parents would need a lot of help from people who might be more qualified.


This, but unironically and inline with other non campus schooling.
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Postby Geneviev » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:31 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Public schooling should be a right of children, which even their parents cannot over-ride.

Any child being home-schooled against their will, or sent to any private/religious school against their will, should be entitled to a social worker or police to collect them from home and take them to or from the public school they live in the catchment of.

If that's what they want, it is their right and the state should protect their rights.

I don't think many children would want any education, so there's always going to be parents who force it on them. Children are children.
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Postby Red Intria » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:43 pm

Homeschooling gets such a bad rap, and almost always anecdotally.

Geneviev wrote:I think homeschooling is one thing where parents would need a lot of help from people who might be more qualified.


True. Which is why I always see signs in the local recreation centre offering classes for homeschooled kids. "karate ages 7-13' for example. Which also provides something completely lacking in public ed - mentoring. Public education, and much of private ed. expects kids to be followers until they become adults, then they magically become equipped to be leaders. The old school one-room school house wasn't a dictatorship. the teacher taught them all, but the older kids taught the younger kids as well. Eased into leadership.

Its not a panacea, but it is looked at as archaic, when it actually fits the whole community-based, village-style learning model that many pretend to support.

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Postby Major-Tom » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:46 pm

Teaching next year, I just gotta say, for the love of god, two things are tantamount to solid education reform. First and foremost, schools should not be funded primarily via property taxation. It's absolutely asinine, it only serves to add to the disparities between school districts, thus acting as a major detriment to the future of our nation's children. And additionally, I think we need to find a balance between both raising teacher pay while simultaneously reforming teacher's unions (IE, being more strict towards those unions and how they have a habit of reinforcing the behavior of bad teachers). It's all easier said than done, but education reform is an often overlooked issue that is usually thrown around as a soundbite during campaigns rather than an issue that politicians and public officials act upon.

As for alternatives (IE charter schools), I tend to deviate from other progressives in that I'm generally supportive of charter schools - Camden NJ, for instance, had a resounding success with inner city charter schools.
Last edited by Major-Tom on Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Future of Public Education

Postby Cetacea » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:10 am

COVID showed that the current model of site based production line education isnt at all necessary and that properly resourced small scale online schooling and charter-style schooling is a better system.

Really I’d be happy if School sites were reduced, teaching hubs teamed with youth/social workers/coaches and families and teachers resourced to interact in dispersed ‘community’ settings.

Okay it might not work with the current American Culture, But as AOC said it looks like a suburb :)
Last edited by Cetacea on Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:12 am

Ask your parents to explain what a logarithm is.

The best solution would be an online public school system, like an open university, to support home schooling and as back up for any future pandemics alongside the public education system.
Last edited by An Alan Smithee Nation on Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Port Spratly » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:24 am

In my opinion, Public schools shall be there for serving the general population while the other family who could afford private education may send their kids to get a better education. Digital learning/education should be utilized to fill the gap between private and public for upskilling the teachers of public schools and give the opportunity for students to benchmark the materials taught by their teachers and explore more. Advancement of digital learning may set a universal education level of quality and with AI in place, the system may detect the difficulties or the misunderstanding of each student on their learning and suggest the personalized tasks/exercises while teachers serve as a facilitator.

right now several foundations or big co CSR is doing their non - profit online platform such as this example https://www.edraak.org/en/k12/ . I think many companies or foundations could join to invest in for that kind of service not only in education but in other many places such as public health with telemedicine etc. at least those the lowest class of people may access education and other basic services in order to have an equal opportunity to grow and have better future.

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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:57 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Ask your parents to explain what a logarithm is.


Kid: "What's a logariggum?"
*parent googles*

Parent: "the logarithm is the inverse function to exponentiation, dear"
Kid: "but muuum, what is a function?"
*parent googles*

Parent: "a function is a binary relation over two sets that associates to every element of the first set exactly one element of the second set, I think"
Kid: "Mum, can we do geography now?"

The best solution would be an online public school system, like an open university, to support home schooling and as back up for any future pandemics alongside the public education system.


I think a lot of learning in school is motivated by competition with other kids. Some kids don't work that way of course. And some kids have a love of learning that can be turned to anything. But taking away the competitive aspect of school for a more impersonal "virtual" school I think would leave a big motivational hole.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:06 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Ask your parents to explain what a logarithm is.


Kid: "What's a logariggum?"
*parent googles*

Parent: "the logarithm is the inverse function to exponentiation, dear"
Kid: "but muuum, what is a function?"
*parent googles*

Parent: "a function is a binary relation over two sets that associates to every element of the first set exactly one element of the second set, I think"
Kid: "Mum, can we do geography now?"

The best solution would be an online public school system, like an open university, to support home schooling and as back up for any future pandemics alongside the public education system.


I think a lot of learning in school is motivated by competition with other kids. Some kids don't work that way of course. And some kids have a love of learning that can be turned to anything. But taking away the competitive aspect of school for a more impersonal "virtual" school I think would leave a big motivational hole.


You could replace that with a gaming model: point scoring, level ups , anonymous rankings, rewards and loot boxes... an educational battle royale
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:12 am

Geneviev wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Public schooling should be a right of children, which even their parents cannot over-ride.

Any child being home-schooled against their will, or sent to any private/religious school against their will, should be entitled to a social worker or police to collect them from home and take them to or from the public school they live in the catchment of.

If that's what they want, it is their right and the state should protect their rights.

I don't think many children would want any education, so there's always going to be parents who force it on them. Children are children.


You missed the point. Given that education IS forced on children, they should be able to choose which they prefer.

Practically speaking, that means that kids in private school, in religious school, or in homeschool, would all have the option of public school instead. If their parents don't agree, send in government employees to make it so.

It doesn't go the other way:
If the parents chose a public school the kid doesn't have the right to demand homeschooling instead. Because they might be bad at it.
If the parents chose a public school and the kid wants a religious school instead, maybe. If it's not too expensive for the parents.
If the parents chose a public school and the kid wants an expensive private school. Almost certainly not. Most parents can't afford it.

Of course I could spend some taxpayer money and widen the options for the last three types of kid. But I don't like giving taxpayer money to religious organizations or to for-profit schools.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:17 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Kid: "What's a logariggum?"
*parent googles*

Parent: "the logarithm is the inverse function to exponentiation, dear"
Kid: "but muuum, what is a function?"
*parent googles*

Parent: "a function is a binary relation over two sets that associates to every element of the first set exactly one element of the second set, I think"
Kid: "Mum, can we do geography now?"



I think a lot of learning in school is motivated by competition with other kids. Some kids don't work that way of course. And some kids have a love of learning that can be turned to anything. But taking away the competitive aspect of school for a more impersonal "virtual" school I think would leave a big motivational hole.


You could replace that with a gaming model: point scoring, level ups , anonymous rankings, rewards and loot boxes... an educational battle royale


I'm a bit concerned that with the immersion and the intellectual richness together, kids might not bring the learning and skills back into the real world. But maybe it works; I'm pretty sure it's been tried and we could find out.
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Postby Cetacea » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:07 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
You could replace that with a gaming model: point scoring, level ups , anonymous rankings, rewards and loot boxes... an educational battle royale


I'm a bit concerned that with the immersion and the intellectual richness together, kids might not bring the learning and skills back into the real world. But maybe it works; I'm pretty sure it's been tried and we could find out.


Even Ivy League study has been gamified these days, theres a very robust theory underlying gamification in education ranging from online quizes through to entirely simulated ecosystems that need to be managed via real world interactions (eg using a data logger to test the local stream)

Have a look here
https://yukaichou.com/gamification-exam ... -examples/

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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:16 am

Online education is going to be the battleground worldwide for hearts and minds in the war of cultural imperialism. The most useful online education systems people can access worldwide will be able to impart cultural values by stealth. Invest now.
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Postby Latvijas Otra Republika » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:43 am

You guys apparently get tick boxes for questions and open book exams, I don’t even understand GPA and why doing ‘quizzes’ and getting teacher approval counts up. Not doing homework getting you failed is also a joke.

Honestly, you’re getting scammed. It’s schooling not education.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:12 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Kid: "What's a logariggum?"
*parent googles*

Parent: "the logarithm is the inverse function to exponentiation, dear"
Kid: "but muuum, what is a function?"
*parent googles*

Parent: "a function is a binary relation over two sets that associates to every element of the first set exactly one element of the second set, I think"
Kid: "Mum, can we do geography now?"



I think a lot of learning in school is motivated by competition with other kids. Some kids don't work that way of course. And some kids have a love of learning that can be turned to anything. But taking away the competitive aspect of school for a more impersonal "virtual" school I think would leave a big motivational hole.


You could replace that with a gaming model: point scoring, level ups , anonymous rankings, rewards and loot boxes... an educational battle royale

I hear Classcraft.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Geneviev wrote:I don't think many children would want any education, so there's always going to be parents who force it on them. Children are children.


You missed the point. Given that education IS forced on children, they should be able to choose which they prefer.

Practically speaking, that means that kids in private school, in religious school, or in homeschool, would all have the option of public school instead. If their parents don't agree, send in government employees to make it so.

It doesn't go the other way:
If the parents chose a public school the kid doesn't have the right to demand homeschooling instead. Because they might be bad at it.
If the parents chose a public school and the kid wants a religious school instead, maybe. If it's not too expensive for the parents.
If the parents chose a public school and the kid wants an expensive private school. Almost certainly not. Most parents can't afford it.

Of course I could spend some taxpayer money and widen the options for the last three types of kid. But I don't like giving taxpayer money to religious organizations or to for-profit schools.

Right. In that case, there could be the problem that children really don't know what's good for them. Their parents might have chosen to send them to a private school that is a good school, and the children might want to go to the public school where their friends are despite that school being underfunded and not as good.

Latvijas Otra Republika wrote:You guys apparently get tick boxes for questions and open book exams, I don’t even understand GPA and why doing ‘quizzes’ and getting teacher approval counts up. Not doing homework getting you failed is also a joke.

Honestly, you’re getting scammed. It’s schooling not education.

There are teachers who are much better than only that. Luckily.
Last edited by Geneviev on Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:33 am

Emmm....So what is the goal of your public education?
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Postby Thepeopl » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:50 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Ask your parents to explain what a logarithm is.

The best solution would be an online public school system, like an open university, to support home schooling and as back up for any future pandemics alongside the public education system.

https://youtu.be/up21mvokyQ4

And if they need more... I'll ask my 15 year old ;)

I think education should focus on skills like reading, mathematics/ calculus, biology, and how to find information and how to determine which information source is dependable/ trustworthy.

At this moment my children are victims of the "new calculus method " where children have to "feel" and "guess" how big a number is and round up to round numbers to do adding/ subtracting
I taught my children to "just" write the numbers under eachother and add/ subtract like that. (My 15 and 11 yo)

My 4year old is learning to read/ write, how to tell time at the moment, because they like it. And doing basic calculus. But again, only because they want to rn. They don't learn it at school. They are homeschooling themselves. At school my 4 yo is playing with sand and colouring/ painting.
Last edited by Thepeopl on Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:32 am

A free, accessible public education system is of vital importance. The U.N. states that all children and young people have a right to an education.

In an ideal world, public schools would be better funded and encouraged as the primary form of education for all children, for (to paraphrase the OP) it is not prone to bias in the manner private, less-supervised forms are, and all staff are highly educated; homeschooling would be so strictly regulated that only fully-qualified educators would be allowed to do it (and be checked in the same manner as a school) and private schools would be subject to heavy regulation that would see them providing -- essentially -- an identical curriculum to public schools, only at more cost.

My reverie over, I see U.S. private schools remaining subject to limited restriction, and public schools remaining highly underfunded for the foreseeable future, and homeschooling continuing to vary by state.

Still, the dream was nice.

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:The best solution would be an online public school system, like an open university, to support home schooling and as back up for any future pandemics alongside the public education system.

Technically, I think in order for that to happen, every child would need access to their own device and the internet (more than 9 million American children still lack internet access at home, and 11 million don't have a computer for school-work; this number doesn't include the number that share a device).
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:49 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:A free, accessible public education system is of vital importance. The U.N. states that all children and young people have a right to an education.

In an ideal world, public schools would be better funded and encouraged as the primary form of education for all children, for (to paraphrase the OP) it is not prone to bias in the manner private, less-supervised forms are, and all staff are highly educated; homeschooling would be so strictly regulated that only fully-qualified educators would be allowed to do it (and be checked in the same manner as a school) and private schools would be subject to heavy regulation that would see them providing -- essentially -- an identical curriculum to public schools, only at more cost.

My reverie over, I see U.S. private schools remaining subject to limited restriction, and public schools remaining highly underfunded for the foreseeable future, and homeschooling continuing to vary by state.

Still, the dream was nice.

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:The best solution would be an online public school system, like an open university, to support home schooling and as back up for any future pandemics alongside the public education system.

Technically, I think in order for that to happen, every child would need access to their own device and the internet (more than 9 million American children still lack internet access at home, and 11 million don't have a computer for school-work; this number doesn't include the number that share a device).

Some schools are able to provide computers and Internet access. It depends on funding, though, and there's not nearly enough right now.

Also, good education for all will be a fantasy for the foreseeable future as public education is not able to survive everything that is happening.
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:49 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:The best solution would be an online public school system, like an open university, to support home schooling and as back up for any future pandemics alongside the public education system.

Technically, I think in order for that to happen, every child would need access to their own device and the internet (more than 9 million American children still lack internet access at home, and 11 million don't have a computer for school-work; this number doesn't include the number that share a device).


A very powerful and important point. Surely this is the point where internet access is an essential basic need for every child?
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:13 am

Geneviev wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:A free, accessible public education system is of vital importance. The U.N. states that all children and young people have a right to an education.

In an ideal world, public schools would be better funded and encouraged as the primary form of education for all children, for (to paraphrase the OP) it is not prone to bias in the manner private, less-supervised forms are, and all staff are highly educated; homeschooling would be so strictly regulated that only fully-qualified educators would be allowed to do it (and be checked in the same manner as a school) and private schools would be subject to heavy regulation that would see them providing -- essentially -- an identical curriculum to public schools, only at more cost.

My reverie over, I see U.S. private schools remaining subject to limited restriction, and public schools remaining highly underfunded for the foreseeable future, and homeschooling continuing to vary by state.

Still, the dream was nice.


Technically, I think in order for that to happen, every child would need access to their own device and the internet (more than 9 million American children still lack internet access at home, and 11 million don't have a computer for school-work; this number doesn't include the number that share a device).

Some schools are able to provide computers and Internet access. It depends on funding, though, and there's not nearly enough right now.

Also, good education for all will be a fantasy for the foreseeable future as public education is not able to survive everything that is happening.

I think it will survive (whether it would continue to survive under another four years of the same Administration...), but remain woefully underfunded.

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:

Technically, I think in order for that to happen, every child would need access to their own device and the internet (more than 9 million American children still lack internet access at home, and 11 million don't have a computer for school-work; this number doesn't include the number that share a device).


A very powerful and important point. Surely this is the point where internet access is an essential basic need for every child?

I think we are getting to the point where that is the case. Definitely, once a child gets to the age where they have a lot of work to do at home. I know we're seeing it in the UK, children without a device/internet access being left behind in their schoolwork.

The ideal would be if schemes were available to families with school-aged children for exceedingly low-priced internet and, perhaps, the loan of a device for the duration of the academic-year. I'm aware there's a UK charity that's refurbishing donated laptops and donating them to schools, and I think that that's what will probably end up having to happen on the other side of the pond, too.

Though, I think it a pity that charities are having to step into a space that is the government's concern: ensuring the equal educational opportunity of children.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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