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Self-Defense and Entitlement

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Who was in the right?

Wife/Husband
48
52%
Mother/Daughter
6
7%
Both
2
2%
Neither
19
21%
Penguins
17
18%
 
Total votes : 92

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Godular
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Self-Defense and Entitlement

Postby Godular » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:10 am

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2020/07/02/auburn-hills-lake-orion-chipotle-woman-pulls-gun/5362593002/

EDITED: THANKS 4 LINK, GALLO! Here is a combined vid showing incident.

https://mobile.twitter.com/d2k/status/1278853736417431552


Sooooooo, apparently a white couple is being charged with assault after they pulled their guns on a black woman and her daughter. The link does not mention as such in the article, but it appears to have progressed.

So if I understand the situation correctly, the daughter decided to confront the white woman after the two bumped into each other, specifically to demand an apology. After one was not given, epithets of ‘ignorant’ and ‘racist’ were flung at the white woman and the mother and daughter followed the woman to her car. More words were exchanged, woman and husband attempt to leave, but the mother/daughter start hitting the car because they fear getting struck. Woman/husband then pull guns, and then news happens,

Now, those of y’all who have spoken with me on this website know I’m pretty hard on the liberal side of the spectrum. I am however quite specifically in favor of one’s right to defend themselves in the event that a threat of harm is felt.

In my opinion, this incident is one of those times. The Mother/Daughter are not entitled to an apology and should not have escalated the situation by demanding one and thereby provoking a confrontation. The fact that the mother/daughter refused to get out of the path of the car when the other party attempted to leave would be full justification for self-defense at that point.

I think the police charged the wrong party in this instance, but I wonder if the wife/husband party was targeted as some sort of effort to make the police seem ‘balanced’. This to me is anything but.

What of you though? Do you believe the charges were justified, or were the wife/husband unduly arrested?
Last edited by Godular on Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:29 am

Pulling a gun because you "feel" threatened is only justified if the other person issued verbal threats, or was waving a weapon.

The woman who pulled a gun may have felt threatened by being yelled at and followed to the parking lot, but a "reasonable person" would not.

Did the woman with her daughter deliberately get in the way of the car?

If they did, well that's naughty but it doesn't justify pulling a gun, and hitting the car would only be bad if damage was done.
If they DIDN'T, I would add to the firearms charge with reckless endangerment. "I was flustered" is no defence in my mind, if you're that flustered you should not attempt to drive.
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:18 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pulling a gun because you "feel" threatened is only justified if the other person issued verbal threats, or was waving a weapon.

The woman who pulled a gun may have felt threatened by being yelled at and followed to the parking lot, but a "reasonable person" would not.

Did the woman with her daughter deliberately get in the way of the car?

If they did, well that's naughty but it doesn't justify pulling a gun, and hitting the car would only be bad if damage was done.
If they DIDN'T, I would add to the firearms charge with reckless endangerment. "I was flustered" is no defence in my mind, if you're that flustered you should not attempt to drive.


I gotta disagree on that. A person's bare hands can be deadly weapons just as much as a firearm. A sense of threat can be found simply by approaching another person in a way that makes them uncomfortable. FOLLOWING them would be even more threatening.

To me it such things come across as very similar to a road-rage situation.

That being said, I do not know what the self-defense laws are in that particular jurisdiction.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:52 am

Godular wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pulling a gun because you "feel" threatened is only justified if the other person issued verbal threats, or was waving a weapon.

The woman who pulled a gun may have felt threatened by being yelled at and followed to the parking lot, but a "reasonable person" would not.

Did the woman with her daughter deliberately get in the way of the car?

If they did, well that's naughty but it doesn't justify pulling a gun, and hitting the car would only be bad if damage was done.
If they DIDN'T, I would add to the firearms charge with reckless endangerment. "I was flustered" is no defence in my mind, if you're that flustered you should not attempt to drive.


I gotta disagree on that. A person's bare hands can be deadly weapons just as much as a firearm. A sense of threat can be found simply by approaching another person in a way that makes them uncomfortable. FOLLOWING them would be even more threatening.


This would make a perfect defense for anyone who pulled a gun on someone else. "The way they approached me made me feel threatened" ... like others are only safe as long as they're walking away?

I think at the very least it would be an affirmative defense: ie the onus of proof would be on the suspect (ie the one with the gun). And "I felt x" would not cut it.

To me it such things come across as very similar to a road-rage situation.


"Road rage" might be a mitigating circumstance (ie they're still guilty but get a lesser fine or sentence) but even that shouldn't apply to starting the car from a parking place. If you're not in a stable state of mind you should not begin driving.

I've only seen this from the camera of the woman with her daughter. Are there other angles?
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Leninist Haven
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Postby Leninist Haven » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:09 am

When I first heard that this was all about the woman refusing to give an apology, I didn't really sympathize with her side, at all. Apologies are (edit: generally) incredibly easy to give, and in many cases, aren't even meaningful. I don't think her saying "I'm sorry for bumping into you" is really all that much for which to ask. I think it's silly to demand an apology for someone bumping into you, but I also think it's common courtesy to just say "I'm sorry" in that scenario even if you're not at fault... And I find it difficult to believe that this would've gone so terribly if that happened.

The beginning of the video, however, made me sympathize with the lady who refused to apologize as she seemed to be gentle in talking to the two, whilst they were more than a little agitated. I don't think that the two sides could come to mutual understanding under such heated discussion, again over something quite minor. What the lady said in the car was a bit... Odd... Maybe I'm misunderstanding her because she became heated, and she had a poor choice of words (or maybe it's my bad hearing)... But her comments about racism seemed pretty strange to me.

With respect to the actual pulling out of a gun, I also don't think that that was justified. The really shaky part of the footage doesn't help, but if I'm understanding it correctly and one of the two women was simply standing in front of her car, I don't think that pulling out a gun is in any way necessary. I think that approaching the car was a terrible decision that could appear as threatening for no actual gain, but I'm confused as to why they didn't just call the police if they felt that much of a threat from the two, as I don't see any immediate danger in someone standing in the way of your car.... At least, not enough of a threat on its own to necessitate immediate action instead of calling police.

Overall, I think that everyone overreacted, and I don't think that anyone was in the right.
Last edited by Leninist Haven on Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:55 am

I love how the two black women are playing the victim after blocking the car in and then punching and kicking it. You dont get to aggress and then play victim. Its a fucking shame the white woman is being charged for doing what most people would do if a couple psychotic weirdos began attacking them. I used to joke about people being shot and killed in Detroit due to two guys bumping into each other in a mini mart but now it actually almost happened.
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Violent Mike
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Postby Violent Mike » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:04 am

Honestly it's a bit hard to tell since the chick didn't catch the exact moment when the mother was behind the car, but they probably should've opened with calling the police IMO.

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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:06 am

If they started hitting her car, then that falls under self-defense. I have no sympathy for the woman and her daughter.
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:07 am

Violent Mike wrote:Honestly it's a bit hard to tell since the chick didn't catch the exact moment when the mother was behind the car, but they probably should've opened with calling the police IMO.


On this point, I do agree somewhat. The Husband was somewhat distanced from the situation and could easily have called police.
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Page
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Postby Page » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:10 am

Atheris wrote:If they started hitting her car, then that falls under self-defense. I have no sympathy for the woman and her daughter.


Is it your view that any aggression against property can justify pulling a gun?
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:12 am

Page wrote:
Atheris wrote:If they started hitting her car, then that falls under self-defense. I have no sympathy for the woman and her daughter.


Is it your view that any aggression against property can justify pulling a gun?

There's a difference between threatening private property and destroying it.

If someone's destroying my private property, I'm pulling out a Walther if I'm scared they're going to hurt me next.
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Postby Galloism » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:15 am

So, highlights from the video (note, the video starts midway through the altercation).

The two black women are demanding she apologize for the bump. The white woman (who I think is pregnant, given the way she’s holding her belly - not sure though) tries to listen patiently, tries to interject a couple times, but they won’t let her speak. The white guy (presumably her husband) comes over and opens the door for his wife in the car, using himself as a physical barrier.

Then one of the black women (I think the mother?) threatens him with bodily harm that she can “beat your ass too” (“too” carries implication she already threatened the white woman this way, but that’s not recorded). Whereupon he starts to walk away, and they call him ignorant and racist. His wife, in an ill advised move, tries to defend him by yelling out the window that they can’t just run around calling white people racist (probably smart) and that no one is racist (demonstrably untrue, unless she just meant no one in the altercation, then I dunno).

Then there’s a lot of camera movement that makes it impossible to know what happened, but it looks like they bumped one of the black women (I think the mother) with the car when they tried to leave the site of the altercation. That’s when all shit breaks loose, and the white woman comes out with the gun screaming not to jump behind her car, and her telling the black women to call the police. She looks exceptionally scared at this point, and continues to back up from the black women with her gun as she orders them to back off.

That’s my observation just from the linked video.

This is a very stupid altercation.
Last edited by Galloism on Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:24 am

This is a situation where there's plenty of blame to go around but no one committed something that should be treated as a felony. Misdemeanor(preferably a minor one), sure, but not a felony. Whatever the local term for "unjustifiably pulling a gun on someone" is, it's likely a felony, and thus probably they shouldn't be charged.
Now I do tend to side with the white couple, even though they had a much better/easier way to go about their day- apologize to the evident lunatics and leave- because following someone to their car and attacking it is, you know, a threat.
That being said we still don't know exactly what went on here. It could be that something else happened that hasn't come to light yet.
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Jalainuria
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Postby Jalainuria » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:39 am

Based on info given, the "white couple" seems justified.
Though given that the women attacking the car were 1. unarmed and 2. kicking the car only - it might be a bit iffy legally.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:43 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pulling a gun because you "feel" threatened is only justified if the other person issued verbal threats, or was waving a weapon.

The mother (I think) did threaten to “beat your (the husband’s) white ass too” in the video. That’s a verbal threat of bodily harm.
Last edited by Galloism on Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:48 am

Incidentally, though I did not vote that way, I am pleased at the support for the penguin revolution.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:56 am

Godular wrote:
Violent Mike wrote:Honestly it's a bit hard to tell since the chick didn't catch the exact moment when the mother was behind the car, but they probably should've opened with calling the police IMO.


On this point, I do agree somewhat. The Husband was somewhat distanced from the situation and could easily have called police.

There were a lot of off ramps here for both parties -

The white woman could have apologized, guilty of a bump or not.
The black mother could have said “this is no big deal” when the teenager asked for help addressing the bump and gone about their business.
She also could have NOT threatened the husband with bodily harm.
When the mother started accusing the husband of ignorance and racism, the wife could have kept her window shut and shut up to avoid escalating.
The mother could have not gotten behind the vehicle where the married couple were attempting to lawfully retreat from the confrontation.
She could have then not started physically attacking the vehicle.
The couple could have then stayed in their vehicle, locked the doors, gotten out their cell phones, and started recording/called the police to resolve the situation.


A lot of off ramps here.
Last edited by Galloism on Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:00 am

Galloism wrote:
Godular wrote:
On this point, I do agree somewhat. The Husband was somewhat distanced from the situation and could easily have called police.

There were a lot of off ramps here for both parties -

The white woman could have apologized, guilty of a bump or not.
The black mother could have said “this is no big deal” when the teenager asked for help addressing the bump and gone about their business.
She also could have NOT threatened the husband with bodily harm.
When the mother started accusing the husband of ignorance and racism, the wife could have kept her window shut and shut up to avoid escalating.
The mother could have not gotten behind the vehicle where the married couple were attempting to lawfully retreat from the confrontation.
She could have then not started physically attacking the vehicle.
The couple could have then stayed in their vehicle, locked the doors, gotten out their cell phones, and started recording/called the police to resolve the situation.


A lot of off ramps here.


Aye, the situation was pretty fucked on all sides, but in my mind it could have been most easily avoided if the Mother/Daughter had just gone about their day. Whether the bump was accidental or not, pursuing an apology to that degree is just asking for trouble, which they got.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:18 am

This was a situation that could have gone really bad. Repeating ignorant and racist over and over only escalates.

What was the bump? Walking? Cars?

Why did they rush the car?
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Postby Galloism » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:25 am

The Black Forrest wrote:This was a situation that could have gone really bad. Repeating ignorant and racist over and over only escalates.

What was the bump? Walking? Cars?

Why did they rush the car?

Walking, allegedly.

As to the last question, continuing to escalate instead of deescalation.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:30 am

Galloism wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:This was a situation that could have gone really bad. Repeating ignorant and racist over and over only escalates.

What was the bump? Walking? Cars?

Why did they rush the car?

Walking, allegedly.

As to the last question, continuing to escalate instead of deescalation.


Welllllll. Charging a car as they are trying to leave is a threatening move.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:35 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
Galloism wrote:Walking, allegedly.

As to the last question, continuing to escalate instead of deescalation.


Welllllll. Charging a car as they are trying to leave is a threatening move.

Yes it is. Notably, there’s only two attempts at deescalation in the video:

1) When the husband quietly helps his wife get into the car.
2) When he tries to leave the scene of the altercation in the car.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:49 am

Someone combined the two videos:

https://twitter.com/d2k/status/1278853736417431552

Notably, it looks like the husband never even drew his gun as far as I can tell. Maybe chipotle security has a third angle showing something different, but I don’t see him drawing at all.

It’s also partially off camera, but I think he came partially around to tell his wife to get back in the car. He comes, partially around says something (inaudible), then she moves back towards the car.

So he tried to deescalation 2 or 3 times. Only escalating thing I can see was the “who do you think you are” statement.

Yet he was fired from his position helping veteran students get higher education, and is charged with felonious assault.
Last edited by Galloism on Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:53 am

Galloism wrote:Someone combined the two videos:

https://twitter.com/d2k/status/1278853736417431552

Notably, it looks like the husband never even drew his gun as far as I can tell. Maybe chipotle security has a third angle showing something different, but I don’t see him drawing at all.

It’s also partially off camera, but I think he came partially around to tell his wife to get back in the car. He comes, partially around says something (inaudible), then she moves back towards the car.

So he tried to deescalation 2 or 3 times. Only escalating thing I can see was the “who do you think you are” statement.

Yet he was fired from his position helping veteran students get higher education, and is charged with felonious assault.

The one adult in the room gets cancelled. Typical.
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:12 am

Diopolis wrote:
Galloism wrote:Someone combined the two videos:

https://twitter.com/d2k/status/1278853736417431552

Notably, it looks like the husband never even drew his gun as far as I can tell. Maybe chipotle security has a third angle showing something different, but I don’t see him drawing at all.

It’s also partially off camera, but I think he came partially around to tell his wife to get back in the car. He comes, partially around says something (inaudible), then she moves back towards the car.

So he tried to deescalation 2 or 3 times. Only escalating thing I can see was the “who do you think you are” statement.

Yet he was fired from his position helping veteran students get higher education, and is charged with felonious assault.

The one adult in the room gets cancelled. Typical.

Nm, I have a retraction. He did draw his gun. He has it pointed at the ground not at them, but he did draw it.

It was really really fast in the video.
Last edited by Galloism on Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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