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Who should give way for whom?

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Galloism
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Who should give way for whom?

Postby Galloism » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:17 pm

A discussion came up on whether cars should give way to pedestrians, or pedestrians give way to cars. There was a lot of random stuff, but ultimately, it comes down to what type of vehicle gives way to another type of vehicle.

In boating, we presume the powered boat is more maneuverable than the sailing boat, and thus the powered boat has to give way. If both boats are powered, or both are sail, there's specific give way rules for what are considered equal maneuverability vehicles:

When power meets power

You must give way to another vessel on your starboard. (right)
If you meet head on, both vessels must turn to starboard. (right)

When power meets sail

Power gives way to sail unless the sailing vessel is overtaking.
Sailing vessels should avoid sailing in a narrow channel. They have to give way to power-driven vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre in the channel.

When sail meets sail

The vessel which has the wind on its starboard (right) side has the right of way. The vessel which has the wind on its port (left) side must give way.
When both boats have the wind on the same side the windward (upwind) boat has to give way.


https://maritime.college/Boating-Rules- ... 0starboard.

When it comes to trains, most everything must give right of way to the train, as it's very nonmaneuverable (it can neither swerve nor stop in a reasonable timeframe). This is true of cars, trucks, emergency vehicles, pedestrians, and all other forms of travel.

In aviation, pedestrians aren't typically a problem, but there's very specific rules on right of way between various vehicles:

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories -

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.


Notably, we once again see most maneuverable must give right of way to the less maneuverable. Aircraft in distress have ultimate right of way, then balloons, then gliders, then aircraft towing/fueling other aircraft, then airships, then all other powered aircraft.

So then we get to the meat of it, for cars vs pedestrians, who is the more maneuverable? If you said "cars", please shred your driver's license. Cars cannot start, stop, or maneuver as fast as people on their feet, with the exception of those who are significantly disabled.

Thus, it makes sense that cars have the right of way, in accordance with the rules for roughly all types of vehicles.

Now those rules aren't perfect - the boating ones in particular suggest an oil tanker is more maneuverable than a sailboat, but I'd suggest those are flaws in the rules themselves, but say nothing about the intentions behind the rules. Less maneuverable vehicles get right of way over the more maneuverable.

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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:27 pm

I was taught in driver's ed that the pedestrian always has the right of way and I don't really see any other argument against it.

Obviously there are circumstances where this rule is impractical or impossible to apply without presenting far worse danger to yourself or others (e.g. someone suddenly running out into traffic) but that is a circumstance that is incredibly rare and one I doubt most people will ever encounter.
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Postby Twicetagram and JYPE » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:42 pm

Pedestrians.
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:43 pm

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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:30 pm

Give way to the might.

I've noticed that very big ships don't give way to anyone, because they can't.

On mountain roads there's a rule that the vehicle coming down has right of way. Since it might not be able to stop.
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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:52 pm

In Michigan the law is pedestrians always have the right of way. When it comes to other transportation it generally is size gives way. So a bike should give way to a skate boarder but a skateboarder would give way to someone walking.
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Postby Atheris » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:55 pm

Last edited by Atheris on Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:56 pm

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:In Michigan the law is pedestrians always have the right of way. When it comes to other transportation it generally is size gives way. So a bike should give way to a skate boarder but a skateboarder would give way to someone walking.


Pedestrians have absolute right of way here, on pedestrian crossings and at lights.

I'm not so sure they do if they're jay-walking.
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Postby Galloism » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:03 pm

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:In Michigan the law is pedestrians always have the right of way. When it comes to other transportation it generally is size gives way. So a bike should give way to a skate boarder but a skateboarder would give way to someone walking.

This doesn't appear to be true, unless they changed it in the last couple years.

Area police departments want to clear up any confusion when it comes to Michigan law and pedestrians crossing the street.

According to the Big Rapids Department of Public Safety, the law isn’t particularly kind to roadway users who are not enveloped in thousands of pounds of steel and glass.

Most Michigan pedestrians may believe that drivers must stop or yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk, but that is not exactly what state law says.

The Michigan Uniform Traffic Code, instead, requires drivers to yield to pedestrians when they are on the same side of the street and when the person walking is lawfully in the crosswalk.

That has two important distinctions.

A motorist isn’t expected to yield to a pedestrian if they are on the other side of a crosswalk or elsewhere in the street.

And a motorist isn’t required to yield to a pedestrian not crossing legally — such as if they are ignoring a walk-don’t walk signal or if they can be deemed to be interfering with traffic.

Of course, the DPS says yielding to pedestrians is always the right thing to do.


http://www.minews26.com/content/police- ... road-laws/

Right to do of course (and I would agree to that in all cases, always try to avoid killing people, that's what I say), but not the law.
Last edited by Galloism on Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Luziyca » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:06 pm

For cars v. pedestrians, if it isn't at a light, then I wait until a car passes, and I'm certain that the next car is far away to cross safely.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:09 pm

Galloism wrote:
Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:In Michigan the law is pedestrians always have the right of way. When it comes to other transportation it generally is size gives way. So a bike should give way to a skate boarder but a skateboarder would give way to someone walking.

This doesn't appear to be true, unless they changed it in the last couple years.

Area police departments want to clear up any confusion when it comes to Michigan law and pedestrians crossing the street.

According to the Big Rapids Department of Public Safety, the law isn’t particularly kind to roadway users who are not enveloped in thousands of pounds of steel and glass.

Most Michigan pedestrians may believe that drivers must stop or yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk, but that is not exactly what state law says.

The Michigan Uniform Traffic Code, instead, requires drivers to yield to pedestrians when they are on the same side of the street and when the person walking is lawfully in the crosswalk.

That has two important distinctions.

A motorist isn’t expected to yield to a pedestrian if they are on the other side of a crosswalk or elsewhere in the street.

And a motorist isn’t required to yield to a pedestrian not crossing legally — such as if they are ignoring a walk-don’t walk signal or if they can be deemed to be interfering with traffic.

Of course, the DPS says yielding to pedestrians is always the right thing to do.


http://www.minews26.com/content/police- ... road-laws/

Right to do of course (and I would agree to that in all cases, always try to avoid killing people, that's what I say), but not the law.

Who gives way to whom in the air? I recall that you have been a flyer, now and then.
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Postby Auze » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:12 pm

Depends on where the landmines are placed.
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:14 pm

Auze wrote:Depends on where the landmines are placed.

You go first.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:14 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Galloism wrote:This doesn't appear to be true, unless they changed it in the last couple years.



http://www.minews26.com/content/police- ... road-laws/

Right to do of course (and I would agree to that in all cases, always try to avoid killing people, that's what I say), but not the law.

Who gives way to whom in the air? I recall that you have been a flyer, now and then.

I posted the rules in the op, but basically in order of who has right of way over everything below:

1) Aircraft in distress
2) Balloons
3) Gliders
4) Aircraft towing or fueling other aircraft
5) Airships
6) All other powered aircraft

How hot air balloons yield the right of way to aircraft in distress is left as a mental exercise to the reader.

Also, sea planes are subject to boating rules when applying right of way rules to water craft.
Last edited by Galloism on Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:19 pm

Galloism wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Who gives way to whom in the air? I recall that you have been a flyer, now and then.

I posted the rules in the op, but basically in order of who has right of way over everything below:

1) Aircraft in distress
2) Balloons
3) Gliders
4) Aircraft towing or fueling other aircraft
5) Airships
6) All other powered aircraft

How hot air balloons yield the right of way to aircraft in distress is left as a mental exercise to the reader.

Also, sea planes are subject to boating rules when applying right of way rules to water craft.

I did miss that. *sigh* Sea planes ... even in the air are boats? Nah, that's not right. Do you get up off the ground anymore these days?
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Postby Mirjt » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:26 pm

Pedestrians always have the right of way. Driving a car carries the responsibility of driving a weapon, a car can kill someone, whereas the worst a pedestrian is likely to do is dent your car.
Last edited by Mirjt on Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:30 pm

Mirjt wrote:Pedestrians always have the right of way. Driving a car carries the responsibility of driving a weapon, a car can kill someone, whereas the worst a pedestrian is likely to do is dent your car.


They could come through you windscreen then strangle you while screaming "die filthy road nazi!"
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:43 pm

Mirjt wrote:Pedestrians always have the right of way. Driving a car carries the responsibility of driving a weapon, a car can kill someone, whereas the worst a pedestrian is likely to do is dent your car.


not really no. A pedestrian can easily cause you to crash. Cars are navigating narrow lanes of transit at significant speed. Having to suddenly swerve to avoid some idiot leaping into the road could have catastrophic consequences.
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Postby Neanderthaland » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:44 pm

The woolly rhino always has right of way.
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Postby Plzen » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:49 pm

Mirjt wrote:Pedestrians always have the right of way. Driving a car carries the responsibility of driving a weapon, a car can kill someone, whereas the worst a pedestrian is likely to do is dent your car.

This is broadly my opinion also.

If there are no cars and the traffic is purely pedestrian, under most reasonable circumstances a road accident is unlikely to be fatal or even particularly dangerous. The driver is the one introducing danger by roaming around with a multi-ton metal box, and in an accident between a driver and a pedestrian the driver should be absolutely responsible for all damages unless the accident was caused deliberately by the pedestrian.

Pedestrian ought to have right of way.
Last edited by Plzen on Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:50 pm

Plzen wrote:
Mirjt wrote:Pedestrians always have the right of way. Driving a car carries the responsibility of driving a weapon, a car can kill someone, whereas the worst a pedestrian is likely to do is dent your car.

This is broadly my opinion also.

If there are no cars and the traffic is purely pedestrian, under most reasonable circumstances a road accident is unlikely to be fatal or even particularly dangerous. The driver is the one introducing danger by roaming around with a multi-ton metal box, and in an accident between a driver and a pedestrian the driver should be absolutely responsible for all damages unless the accident was caused deliberately by the pedestrian.


Hence dash-cams. So someone who jumps in front of your car then tries to sue you, loses.
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:52 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:The woolly rhino always has right of way.

And mammoths.
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Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
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Postby Heloin » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:55 pm

Galloism wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Who gives way to whom in the air? I recall that you have been a flyer, now and then.

I posted the rules in the op, but basically in order of who has right of way over everything below:

1) Aircraft in distress
2) Balloons
3) Gliders
4) Aircraft towing or fueling other aircraft
5) Airships
6) All other powered aircraft

How hot air balloons yield the right of way to aircraft in distress is left as a mental exercise to the reader.

Also, sea planes are subject to boating rules when applying right of way rules to water craft.

You activate debug mode and move the balloon out of the way clearly.
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