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So what's plan B if defunding cops creates anarchy?

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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So what's plan B if defunding cops creates anarchy?

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:51 pm

So we're hearing a lot of talk about defunding police and putting that money into social services instead. The idea, presumably, is that if these "social services" could somehow address every other possible motive for committing crime in the first place, we wouldn't need as much policing.

Here's the problem with that proposal... since when was anyone any good at predicting anyone else's motives for what they do?

No, really. I recall 2016, when the notion that respondents who claimed they'd vote Clinton if she were the candidate were lying through their teeth were met with "why would they lie"? Doesn't matter. They did. People do what they do for reasons neither you nor I nor the so-called "experts" who got it wrong could ever hope to comperehend. The delusion that if you do not anticipate their motives, such motives cannot exist, feels like a false dichotomy fit to rival "God of the gaps."

So now proposals to defund the police invoke the delusion that they have every possible motive for crime figured out; and they want us to, based on this tenuous reasoning, weaken the one institution known to hold crime back.

My question to them is; what if you're wrong? What is your plan B, if people have reasons for committing crimes that you fail to anticipate, predict, or comprehend, and these reasons are all unleashed? Is a return to policing as it was before possible, or would the change, or at least some of the effects thereof, be permanent? Is there a third option you could jump to from there, that might be relatively safer? If so, what is it?

My alternative? If we think we know why crime happens, then rather than defunding the police, why not address those supposed motives first, and then weaken police presence very slowly and gradually so if it works out badly we can reverse the trend before it's too late?
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:21 pm

Use the military to enforce order and the establishment of a new order.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:22 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Here's the problem with that proposal... since when was anyone any good at predicting anyone else's motives for what they do?


Here's the problem with your question, and basically your entire post:
1. Insofar as crimes go, it's not an issue of individual motives. It's an issue of underlying social and economic causes for crimes on a broader scale.
2. A big part of why people want to focus resources away from police is that the imbalance in resources leads to cops being used to respond to problems and emergencies that would be better addressed by other kinds of professionals. For example, using cops to respond to mentally ill people suffering a crisis. Police flat out are being overused to deal with problems they have no business dealing with.
Last edited by Liriena on Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:22 pm

Revolution.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:24 pm

Thermodolia wrote:Use the military to enforce order and the establishment of a new order.

I dunno. Were it not the USA, that might not be terrible. But this is murica we’re talking about, and I don’t know about you, but I’ve heard some things about the military. I hope I’m wrong though.
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Kragholm Free States
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Postby Kragholm Free States » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:27 pm

Anarchy is their plan.

That said, yes, obviously, police reform, demilitarisation, a focus on building rapport with local communities, emphasis on rehabilitative justice etc. does need to happen. But the notion that any influential group within a movement riddled with anarchist and communist factions have thought of a way to avoid anarchy is a flawed one.
Last edited by Kragholm Free States on Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:29 pm

Kragholm Free States wrote:Anarchy is their plan.

Nope.

A word of advice: people who disagree with you usually aren't comic book villains.
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Kragholm Free States
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Postby Kragholm Free States » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:29 pm

Liriena wrote:
Kragholm Free States wrote:Anarchy is their plan.

Nope.

A word of advice: people who disagree with you usually aren't comic book villains.


Shame. Life would be so much more fun if they were.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:30 pm

Liriena wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Here's the problem with that proposal... since when was anyone any good at predicting anyone else's motives for what they do?


Here's the problem with your question, and basically your entire post:
1. Insofar as crimes go, it's not an issue of individual motives. It's an issue of underlying social and economic causes for crimes on a broader scale.
2. A big part of why people want to focus resources away from police is that the imbalance in resources leads to cops being used to respond to problems and emergencies that would be better addressed by other kinds of professionals. For example, using cops to respond to mentally ill people suffering a crisis. Police flat out are being overused to deal with problems they have no business dealing with.

In america that is not really the police's fault. In order to get homeless off the streets and into treatment it has to go to the cops, if the person doesnt want to go. They have to present pretty much an immediate danger to themselves and others before you can get an involuntarybcommitment. Once you get to the point of danger to others, it is a police matter, and a life or death one.
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La xinga
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Postby La xinga » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:32 pm

It's no longer an "if." It already happened. There's clearly more murders than usual.
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Postby Superduperkid » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:34 pm

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Revolution.


That would be terrible, since it will cost more lives than you will expect and there isn't even a reason.

A better solution: Don't change the funding. The police are doing fine, so we should leave them alone. There's the occasional thing where a cop kills somebody, so make sure it doesn't happen again.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:35 pm

La xinga wrote:It's no longer an "if." It already happened. There's clearly more murders than usual.

[citation needed]
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:37 pm

Fund local militias.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:37 pm

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Use the military to enforce order and the establishment of a new order.

I dunno. Were it not the USA, that might not be terrible. But this is murica we’re talking about, and I don’t know about you, but I’ve heard some things about the military. I hope I’m wrong though.

The military leans pretty damn libertarian/apolitical.
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La xinga
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Postby La xinga » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:37 pm

Liriena wrote:
La xinga wrote:It's no longer an "if." It already happened. There's clearly more murders than usual.

[citation needed]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020 ... lice-crime

Take Chicago. Not the only city. 3 weeks ago, at the height of all of this.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:38 pm

Superduperkid wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Revolution.


That would be terrible, since it will cost more lives than you will expect and there isn't even a reason.

A better solution: Don't change the funding. The police are doing fine, so we should leave them alone. There's the occasional thing where a cop kills somebody, so make sure it doesn't happen again.

Nah revolution is needed.
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Postby Last Breath » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:38 pm

Superduperkid wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Revolution.


That would be terrible, since it will cost more lives than you will expect and there isn't even a reason.

A better solution: Don't change the funding. The police are doing fine, so we should leave them alone. There's the occasional thing where a cop kills somebody, so make sure it doesn't happen again.

Except crime is often an issue that could be addressed in much more efficient ways than locking people up.
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Superduperkid
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Postby Superduperkid » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:39 pm

Last Breath wrote:
Superduperkid wrote:
That would be terrible, since it will cost more lives than you will expect and there isn't even a reason.

A better solution: Don't change the funding. The police are doing fine, so we should leave them alone. There's the occasional thing where a cop kills somebody, so make sure it doesn't happen again.

Except crime is often an issue that could be addressed in much more efficient ways than locking people up.


And why is that? It's always best to make sure they don't do it again.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:40 pm

La xinga wrote:
Liriena wrote:[citation needed]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020 ... lice-crime

Take Chicago. Not the only city. 3 weeks ago, at the height of all of this.

Was Chicago police defunded?

Also, correlation =/= causation, my dude.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Last Breath
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Postby Last Breath » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:42 pm

Superduperkid wrote:
Last Breath wrote:Except crime is often an issue that could be addressed in much more efficient ways than locking people up.


And why is that? It's always best to make sure they don't do it again.

How about we fund social programs and education so that instead of never committing crimes again, people simply are less likely to commit crimes in the first place. Furthermore having spent time in jail can make seeking employment extremely difficult, which of course leads to poverty and then to more crime.
Last edited by Last Breath on Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:42 pm

Superduperkid wrote:
Last Breath wrote:Except crime is often an issue that could be addressed in much more efficient ways than locking people up.


And why is that? It's always best to make sure they don't do it again.

Logic question:

Which is cheaper, setting a broken arm, or showing someone how to use a piece of machinery in a way that won't break their arm?
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La xinga
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Postby La xinga » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:43 pm

Liriena wrote:
La xinga wrote:https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020 ... lice-crime

Take Chicago. Not the only city. 3 weeks ago, at the height of all of this.

Was Chicago police defunded?

Also, correlation =/= causation, my dude.

1. Not specially defunded, but if you want a place where something was done, take NYC.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/us/new-y ... index.html
(CNN, very liberal.)
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny ... story.html

2. What?
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for the Almighty to allow your eyes to see!
Radical religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5780 years old. It's true. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

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Hi, The east pacific!
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Estanglia
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Postby Estanglia » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:43 pm

Superduperkid wrote:
Last Breath wrote:Except crime is often an issue that could be addressed in much more efficient ways than locking people up.


And why is that? It's always best to make sure they don't do it again.


And locking them up doesn't necessarily mean that they don't commit a crime again, unless it's a life sentence.
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Superduperkid
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Postby Superduperkid » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:45 pm

Last Breath wrote:
Superduperkid wrote:
And why is that? It's always best to make sure they don't do it again.

How about we fund social programs and education so that instead of never committing crimes again, people simply are less likely to commit crimes in the first place. Furthermore having spent time in jail can make seeking employment extremely difficult, which of course leads to poverty and then to more crime.


I didn't realize that. :lol2:

But what if we just imprison them for life? Crime will become almost non-existent if those who practice it are too scared to.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:47 pm

La xinga wrote:
Liriena wrote:Was Chicago police defunded?

Also, correlation =/= causation, my dude.

1. Not specially defunded, but if you want a place where something was done, take NYC.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/us/new-y ... index.html
(CNN, very liberal.)
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny ... story.html

2. What?

1. Your sources show spikes in crime in NYC. They tell me nothing of the consequences of defunding police departments, which didn't happen in the time before those articles were published. You've proven no causal link here.

2. You have to actually prove there's a causal link between a specific policy and, say, an increase in crime.
Last edited by Liriena on Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

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