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[Discuss] USHR passes measure supporting District statehood

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Mesadora
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[Discuss] USHR passes measure supporting District statehood

Postby Mesadora » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:29 pm

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington ... 1st-state/

Here we go again....

The Democrat-controlled US House of Representatives has passed a bill supporting statehood for the District of Columbia. According to CBS News, "The legislation passed 232 to 180, with only one Democrat joining Republicans to vote against it."

Important points to note are that the District's population is greater than current US states Vermont and Wyoming. However, the District was originally intended as neutral ground so that no one state hosted the Federal government.

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Postby The New California Republic » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:31 pm

...sooo....what do you think about it OP?
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The Imperial Magocracy of Galazkaban
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Postby The Imperial Magocracy of Galazkaban » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm

Everything should declare statehood. I am in Phoenix. This is now Phoenix Commune.

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Postby Proctopeo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:35 pm

I question their motives, and I think it's a dumb idea to begin with. The actual solution to "people in DC can't vote for President" is "give the residential areas (ie where people live) back to Maryland, so they vote as Marylanders".
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:39 pm

Proctopeo wrote:I question their motives, and I think it's a dumb idea to begin with. The actual solution to "people in DC can't vote for President" is "give the residential areas (ie where people live) back to Maryland, so they vote as Marylanders".


Honestly, the only reason they're pushing this is to get 2 more reliably Democratic senators. It has nothing to do with anything else...if they wanted to address issues like Congressional representation and EC votes, incorporate the District into one of the neighboring states for those purposes.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:48 pm

Proctopeo wrote:I question their motives, and I think it's a dumb idea to begin with. The actual solution to "people in DC can't vote for President" is "give the residential areas (ie where people live) back to Maryland, so they vote as Marylanders".


So, the problem isn't that they can't vote for President (the residents of D.C. have had that privilege for a while now, and have 3 EC votes per constitutional amendment) but rather that these people lack Congressional representation in any meaningful sense of the word. Retrocession into Maryland is less politically viable than making it a state because no one in D.C. or Maryland actually want that to happen, plus the residential areas intertwine with the government buildings and office, so separating the two isn't exactly easy. It also comes with its own legal questions since the Constitution mandates that some form of D.C. exists.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:49 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:I question their motives, and I think it's a dumb idea to begin with. The actual solution to "people in DC can't vote for President" is "give the residential areas (ie where people live) back to Maryland, so they vote as Marylanders".


Honestly, the only reason they're pushing this is to get 2 more reliably Democratic senators. It has nothing to do with anything else...if they wanted to address issues like Congressional representation and EC votes, incorporate the District into one of the neighboring states for those purposes.


The people of D.C. and Maryland (or Virginia) do not want that, is the problem. Whether or not retrocession is Constitutional was never a question that was actually addressed, either.
Last edited by Valrifell on Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:51 pm

you see this as corruption, if you are right-wing and support the republican party, but people in Washington do not have the same rights as people who lives in less populated states, they can't elect representatives, they can't elect any senators, shouldn'T that right count over any partisan considerations.

its obvious the republicans do not want more democrats. so they will vote no in block to stop this.
Here a problem for any federation who gave themselves a federal district, it create 2nd class citizen, who do not have right to their own government, since its government by the congress, which mean people elected by voters from other states have a thing to say, in how the locals should be governed.

Giving Washington State-hood Is the RIGHT move, and the only way to correct this unfairness.

Would you appreciate that someone elected from another state, has the right to vote on law that will only applied in your state ? I think the answer is NO.




also,. what the founding fathers wanted should not count, theses people where no democrats, they should not be respected or revered. what should count, is what do the people living in washington want right NOW
Last edited by Fauzjhia on Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:59 pm

What is conveniently ignored is the defeat of Fred Keller's motion to recommit by 227-182. Are you really going to add a new state into the union without any guarantees that it won't legislate to prohibit people from seceding from it? By which I mean, are you really going to add a new state into the union without any guarantees that it won't devolve into a bunch of little Capitol Hill Autonomous Zones all over the place?

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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:00 pm

Valrifell wrote:The people of D.C. and Maryland (or Virginia) do not want that, is the problem. Whether or not retrocession is Constitutional was never a question that was actually addressed, either.


I think it's something that would require an actual Constitutional amendment to fully resolve.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:01 pm

Wouldn't this be better in the 2020 Election Thread where this topic has been discussed time and time again?
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:06 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:you see this as corruption, if you are right-wing and support the republican party, but people in Washington do not have the same rights as people who lives in less populated states, they can't elect representatives, they can't elect any senators, shouldn'T that right count over any partisan considerations.

its obvious the republicans do not want more democrats. so they will vote no in block to stop this.
Here a problem for any federation who gave themselves a federal district, it create 2nd class citizen, who do not have right to their own government, since its government by the congress, which mean people elected by voters from other states have a thing to say, in how the locals should be governed.

Giving Washington State-hood Is the RIGHT move, and the only way to correct this unfairness.

Would you appreciate that someone elected from another state, has the right to vote on law that will only applied in your state ? I think the answer is NO.

also,. what the founding fathers wanted should not count, theses people where no democrats, they should not be respected or revered. what should count, is what do the people living in washington want right NOW


There's really nothing stopping people who live in the DC to move to Maryland or Virginia if they want representation. The entire point of setting up the district was to avoid any squabbling over what state held the nation's capitol. And on top of that, the city itself gets enormous benefits from federal spending that is paid by taxpayers in the rest of the country far disproportionate to the amount of taxes paid by its residents.
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:07 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:I question their motives, and I think it's a dumb idea to begin with. The actual solution to "people in DC can't vote for President" is "give the residential areas (ie where people live) back to Maryland, so they vote as Marylanders".


Honestly, the only reason they're pushing this is to get 2 more reliably Democratic senators. It has nothing to do with anything else...if they wanted to address issues like Congressional representation and EC votes, incorporate the District into one of the neighboring states for those purposes.


It is really too bad that partisan political posturing is getting in the way of such a sensible solution.
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:11 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:I question their motives, and I think it's a dumb idea to begin with. The actual solution to "people in DC can't vote for President" is "give the residential areas (ie where people live) back to Maryland, so they vote as Marylanders".

Retrocession into Maryland is less politically viable than making it a state because no one in D.C. or Maryland actually want that to happen, plus the residential areas intertwine with the government buildings and office, so separating the two isn't exactly easy. It also comes with its own legal questions since the Constitution mandates that some form of D.C. exists.


Politicians in Maryland and DC are mostly Democrats who oppose it because DC statehood would benefit their party more. But if DC becomes a state, wouldn't that mean it was no longer neutral ground as envisioned by the constitution? There are already government offices in Virginia and Maryland, so I don't see why some more federal government offices couldn't be annexed into Maryland. The reduced District of Columbia only needs to include the White House, the Capitol Building, the congressional office buildings across the street from the Capitol, the National Mall, and the Supreme Court.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:12 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Fauzjhia wrote:you see this as corruption, if you are right-wing and support the republican party, but people in Washington do not have the same rights as people who lives in less populated states, they can't elect representatives, they can't elect any senators, shouldn'T that right count over any partisan considerations.

its obvious the republicans do not want more democrats. so they will vote no in block to stop this.
Here a problem for any federation who gave themselves a federal district, it create 2nd class citizen, who do not have right to their own government, since its government by the congress, which mean people elected by voters from other states have a thing to say, in how the locals should be governed.

Giving Washington State-hood Is the RIGHT move, and the only way to correct this unfairness.

Would you appreciate that someone elected from another state, has the right to vote on law that will only applied in your state ? I think the answer is NO.

also,. what the founding fathers wanted should not count, theses people where no democrats, they should not be respected or revered. what should count, is what do the people living in washington want right NOW


There's really nothing stopping people who live in the DC to move to Maryland or Virginia if they want representation. The entire point of setting up the district was to avoid any squabbling over what state held the nation's capitol. And on top of that, the city itself gets enormous benefits from federal spending that is paid by taxpayers in the rest of the country far disproportionate to the amount of taxes paid by its residents.


the Idea of a republican. democracy is secondary, MOVE out of the place, if you want to have a say in democratic process. 10 10 values.
the city is where many federal government activities are located.

Canada does not have that problem. main city is in Ottawa, we still have bilingual problem, but not this democratic problem.

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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:18 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
Honestly, the only reason they're pushing this is to get 2 more reliably Democratic senators. It has nothing to do with anything else...if they wanted to address issues like Congressional representation and EC votes, incorporate the District into one of the neighboring states for those purposes.


It is really too bad that partisan political posturing is getting in the way of such a sensible solution.



that,s not really tricking me. the republican party is more then happy to block this, they don't want 2 more democrat senators. that,s the enemy, we don,t give seat to the enemy...

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Postby Katganistan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:20 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
Honestly, the only reason they're pushing this is to get 2 more reliably Democratic senators. It has nothing to do with anything else...if they wanted to address issues like Congressional representation and EC votes, incorporate the District into one of the neighboring states for those purposes.


The people of D.C. and Maryland (or Virginia) do not want that, is the problem. Whether or not retrocession is Constitutional was never a question that was actually addressed, either.

Virginia already took back part of DC, which is why it's shaped the way it is.

Seriously, make all the residential areas MD or VA, or even it's own state, and just leave the Federal district as the nation's capital.

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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:24 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
The people of D.C. and Maryland (or Virginia) do not want that, is the problem. Whether or not retrocession is Constitutional was never a question that was actually addressed, either.

Virginia already took back part of DC, which is why it's shaped the way it is.

Seriously, make all the residential areas MD or VA, or even it's own state, and just leave the Federal district as the nation's capital.


Many states will be jalous that the capital could be located etheir in Maryland or Virginia, so they will block the constitutional reform you need.
Its a solution, as noted, in Canada, the capital city is in Ontario, and it bother no one. Canada is a federation too

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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:35 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
The people of D.C. and Maryland (or Virginia) do not want that, is the problem. Whether or not retrocession is Constitutional was never a question that was actually addressed, either.

Virginia already took back part of DC, which is why it's shaped the way it is.

Seriously, make all the residential areas MD or VA, or even it's own state, and just leave the Federal district as the nation's capital.


I know, but technically it would be an option to give it to Virginia if we wanted to, like you said later in this post.

Like I said, though, the nature of retrocession is an open Constitutional issue and would possibly require a SCOTUS intervention to determine.
Last edited by Valrifell on Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:39 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Valrifell wrote:Retrocession into Maryland is less politically viable than making it a state because no one in D.C. or Maryland actually want that to happen, plus the residential areas intertwine with the government buildings and office, so separating the two isn't exactly easy. It also comes with its own legal questions since the Constitution mandates that some form of D.C. exists.


Politicians in Maryland and DC are mostly Democrats who oppose it because DC statehood would benefit their party more. But if DC becomes a state, wouldn't that mean it was no longer neutral ground as envisioned by the constitution?


The idea that making a state the seat of government would give it control over the Federal government after 200 years of increasing national powers is absurd. Anything that the new state would try would almost immediately be overturned in court or by an act of Congress or even by an Executive Order.
Last edited by Valrifell on Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:42 pm

Proctopeo wrote:I question their motives, and I think it's a dumb idea to begin with. The actual solution to "people in DC can't vote for President" is "give the residential areas (ie where people live) back to Maryland, so they vote as Marylanders".


People in DC can vote for President though, that's not the problem.
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Postby Rusozak » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:51 pm

There's nothing neutral about D.C., believe me. Denying them representation isn't going to change anything. Besides, wasn't the whole idea of a neutral ground outside of any state brought up when the slave states were butting heads with the Federalists?
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:55 pm

Rusozak wrote:There's nothing neutral about D.C., believe me. Denying them representation isn't going to change anything. Besides, wasn't the whole idea of a neutral ground outside of any state brought up when the slave states were butting heads with the Federalists?


Yes.

Plus the whole reason why Alexandria was given back to Virginia was concerns over it losing its status as a major save-trade hub, but that's beside the point.
Last edited by Valrifell on Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:59 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:
It is really too bad that partisan political posturing is getting in the way of such a sensible solution.



that,s not really tricking me. the republican party is more then happy to block this, they don't want 2 more democrat senators. that,s the enemy, we don,t give seat to the enemy...


Maintaining the status quo in the Senate isn't giving seats to the enemy.
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:01 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:Politicians in Maryland and DC are mostly Democrats who oppose it because DC statehood would benefit their party more. But if DC becomes a state, wouldn't that mean it was no longer neutral ground as envisioned by the constitution?


The idea that making a state the seat of government would give it control over the Federal government after 200 years of increasing national powers is absurd. Anything that the new state would try would almost immediately be overturned in court or by an act of Congress or even by an Executive Order.


Wouldn't that be all the more reason for DC residents to want their homes annexed into the state of Maryland?
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