[R] What? HK Thread

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I am not sure how this is not trolling or flamebaiting considering what DPRK is. That and describing DPRK as a place with a "sound moral compass".

[Santheres]

Distasteful is not automatically trolling or flamebaiting, sorry. Thanks for checking, though.

[The Free Joy State]

As I don't think I am allowed to ask for a second opinion on a report I didn't action, I would like to raise a new mod report, and this seems apt as it largely pertains to the HK thread. This is not IM's only instance of talking of North Korea as a "haven", nor of pushing distasteful opinions in a repetitive way that seems designed to rile the thread.

In fact, it appears to me that it is part of a long term pattern of posting that -- as such may, viewed as a pattern -- constitute trolling NSG (as such posting patterns have with previous posters, IIRC).

Although unorthodox, I would like some recent history with regards to Infected Mushroom to be looked at.

On North Korea:
viewtopic.php?p=37239549#p37239549
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=482392&p=36865762&hilit=NK#p36865762
viewtopic.php?p=36865349#p36865349

Calling protestors "rioters" (all since June 1st -- there are many, many more)
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37233853&hilit=rioters#p37233853
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37228437&hilit=rioters#p37228437
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37223049&hilit=rioters#p37223049
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37223030#p37223030
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37215277#p37215277
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37210896&hilit=rioters#p37210896

On locking up the Uighur Muslims:
viewtopic.php?p=36692945#p36692945
viewtopic.php?p=36693007#p36693007 (calling locking up a population, due to their religion, "quarantine", in reference to COVID-19 -- thus implying that a minority religion is akin to a virus -- twice)

On removing organs from political dissidents:
viewtopic.php?p=36581641#p36581641
viewtopic.php?p=36303675#p36303675

There are other posts, going back much longer in history. I just thought I might give you a sample, both to serve as context, and because I think his pattern of behaviour on-site needs looking into.

EDIT: Worth saying, that I am not the only one who suspects IM of being -- minimally -- "a poe". Adding to this impression, across other threads (in recent months) are statements such as that he would have handed his spouse over to the Nazis.

I would also like to point out that IM sent a TG, at some point on or around October 13th 2018, to ask if dictatorships are frowned upon in NSG (after-which his support seems to have grown more vocal and frequent) -- I no longer have the TG, but do have my reply (which I am aware you can read at any time). While I do not see this act is actionable in any way, it does add to my belief that his long-term pattern of posting unpleasant pro-authoritarian opinions repeatedly may be low-key trolling.

[Infected Mushroom]

As I don't think I am allowed to ask for a second opinion on a report I didn't action, I would like to raise a new mod report, and this seems apt as it largely pertains to the HK thread. This is not IM's only instance of talking of North Korea as a "haven", nor of pushing distasteful opinions in a repetitive way that seems designed to rile the thread.

In fact, it appears to me that it is part of a long term pattern of posting that -- as such may, viewed as a pattern -- constitute trolling NSG (as such posting patterns have with previous posters, IIRC).

Although unorthodox, I would like some recent history with regards to Infected Mushroom to be looked at.

On North Korea:
viewtopic.php?p=37239549#p37239549
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=482392&p=36865762&hilit=NK#p36865762
viewtopic.php?p=36865349#p36865349

Calling protestors "rioters" (all since June 1st -- there are many, many more)
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37233853&hilit=rioters#p37233853
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37228437&hilit=rioters#p37228437
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37223049&hilit=rioters#p37223049
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37223030#p37223030
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37215277#p37215277
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=478559&p=37210896&hilit=rioters#p37210896

On locking up the Uighur Muslims:
viewtopic.php?p=36692945#p36692945
viewtopic.php?p=36693007#p36693007 (calling locking up a population, due to their religion, "quarantine", in reference to COVID-19 -- thus implying that a minority religion is akin to a virus -- twice)

On removing organs from political dissidents:
viewtopic.php?p=36581641#p36581641
viewtopic.php?p=36303675#p36303675

There are other posts, going back much longer in history. I just thought I might give you a sample, both to serve as context, and because I think his pattern of behaviour on-site needs looking into.

I believe this report amounts to reporting opinions he doesn't agree with.

I believe it is in accordance with site rules to argue strongly held opinions in a firm but respectful manner.

Also, in case a part of the report gets misinterpreted, the following ruling has already been issued with respect to this part and it was deemed not actionable by Startlandya:

On locking up the Uighur Muslims:
viewtopic.php?p=36692945#p36692945
viewtopic.php?p=36693007#p36693007 (calling locking up a population, due to their religion, "quarantine", in reference to COVID-19 -- thus implying that a minority religion is akin to a virus -- twice)

^

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=480564&hilit=social+hygiene

---

Support for North Korea is not against the rules, also please note that some of the NK threads are from another thread I've started about the ethics of visiting North Korea.

When I say "the rioters" in the HK thread, I mean "the rioters" specifically (those who have engaged in riots).

I'm NOT saying "everyone who holds the belief is a rioter," I'm not saying "all protestors are 100% rioters," I'm not saying "people who post here are rioters."

There are people who have engaged in riots in Hong Kong, the city that I live in, that is not a speculation, not a pejorative, not an exaggeration... its an indisputable fact. And that's what I am addressing.

As for the posts regarding organ harvesting, I believe I have stated my opinion in a manner that is as respectfully as possible.

---

I would also like to launch a counter-report (against the Free Joy State) that this is a bad faith report/fishing expedition where someone wishes to silence a point of view with respect to the Hong Kong debate by going through an entire posting history and taking posts out of context (and YES, there is more than one point of view on the matter of Hong Kong).

In fact, a good plurality/majority of these reported links are from many many months back (one post was from October 2019, we are in June 2020).

Some people may wish to see the conflict and riots in Hong Kong cause the breakdown of the CCP and the breaking apart of an entire nation, but it is my right as a resident in this great city to express my opposition to those views within the rules of the site. And yes, I do invite people to question what the western media says and to look at North Korea with a more nuanced perspective.

With that said, I respectfully leave this in your hands.

[The Free Joy State]

I would also like to launch a counter-report (against the Free Joy State) that this is a bad faith report/fishing expedition where someone wishes to silence a point of view with respect to the Hong Kong debate by going through an entire posting history and taking posts out of context (and YES, there is more than one point of view on the matter of Hong Kong).

In fact, a good plurality/majority of these reported links are from many many months back (one post was from October 2019, we are in June 2020).

Some people may wish to see the conflict and riots in Hong Kong cause the breakdown of the CCP and the breaking apart of an entire nation, but it is my right as a resident in this great city to express my opposition to those views within the rules of the site. And yes, I do invite people to question what the western media says and to look at North Korea with a more nuanced perspective.

I do not wish to argue, or spam moderation. But I would like to counter the accusation that this is a bad-faith report.

I have made this report in good faith, in the sincere belief that Infected Mushroom is engaging in long-term, persistent, low-grade trolling in an attempt to inflame the threads with which he is participating and so rile other posters.

While I acknowledge that unpopular opinions are not necessarily trolling, his repetitive habit of referring to protestors as "rioters" (and never differentiating, that I have seen) seems like deliberate dancing on the rules, knowing that several other posters in the Hong Kong thread are participants in the protests.

If I had gone back further than the last couple of months, I could have compiled quite a hefty report. But I opted not to give you mods too much to look at.

EDIT: I concede that the post from October 2019 is posted in error; all the other posts are a selection from 2020.

[Infected Mushroom]

I would also like to launch a counter-report (against the Free Joy State) that this is a bad faith report/fishing expedition where someone wishes to silence a point of view with respect to the Hong Kong debate by going through an entire posting history and taking posts out of context (and YES, there is more than one point of view on the matter of Hong Kong).

In fact, a good plurality/majority of these reported links are from many many months back (one post was from October 2019, we are in June 2020).

Some people may wish to see the conflict and riots in Hong Kong cause the breakdown of the CCP and the breaking apart of an entire nation, but it is my right as a resident in this great city to express my opposition to those views within the rules of the site. And yes, I do invite people to question what the western media says and to look at North Korea with a more nuanced perspective.

I do not wish to argue, or spam moderation. But I would like to counter the accusation that this is a bad-faith report.

I have made this report in good faith, in the sincere belief that Infected Mushroom is engaging in long-term, persistent, low-grade trolling in an attempt to inflame the threads with which he is participating and so rile other posters.

While I acknowledge that unpopular opinions are not necessarily trolling, his repetitive habit of referring to protestors as "rioters" (and never differentiating, that I have seen) seems like deliberate dancing on the rules, knowing that several other posters in the Hong Kong thread are participants in the protests.

If I had gone back further than the last couple of months, I could have compiled quite a hefty report. But I opted not to give you mods too much to look at.

In my final defence:

The term "riots" and "rioters" inevitably shows up in the discourse; it is necessary terminology to discuss the issue in any considerable depth especially if one wants to support the government.

It is a fact: There have been riots in Hong Kong. There have been riots in the train stations, in the universities, on the streets causing destruction.

The term rioter would have to be invoked when defending a pro government position because the government doesn't oppose non violent pre-approved/authorised protests, it opposes unauthorised protests and violent riots. The government MAKES the distinction and so do I. I am completely aware that some protestors use non-violent methods while others engage in riots; in fact, I've elaborated on this distinction before many times in the thread.

Whenever I use the term "rioter" or "riots" I am referring to a specific (but fairly large) subset of the street protest movement.

If you would like, I can refrain from using the term "rioters" and just say "protestors who use violence" but isn't that a mouthful? I don't see the term as provocative so much as descriptive.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

I would also like to launch a counter-report (against the Free Joy State) that this is a bad faith report/fishing expedition where someone wishes to silence a point of view with respect to the Hong Kong debate by going through an entire posting history and taking posts out of context (and YES, there is more than one point of view on the matter of Hong Kong).

In fact, a good plurality/majority of these reported links are from many many months back (one post was from October 2019, we are in June 2020).

Some people may wish to see the conflict and riots in Hong Kong cause the breakdown of the CCP and the breaking apart of an entire nation, but it is my right as a resident in this great city to express my opposition to those views within the rules of the site. And yes, I do invite people to question what the western media says and to look at North Korea with a more nuanced perspective.

I do not wish to argue, or spam moderation. But I would like to counter the accusation that this is a bad-faith report.

I have made this report in good faith, in the sincere belief that Infected Mushroom is engaging in long-term, persistent, low-grade trolling in an attempt to inflame the threads with which he is participating and so rile other posters.

While I acknowledge that unpopular opinions are not necessarily trolling, his repetitive habit of referring to protestors as "rioters" (and never differentiating, that I have seen) seems like deliberate dancing on the rules, knowing that several other posters in the Hong Kong thread are participants in the protests.

If I had gone back further than the last couple of months, I could have compiled quite a hefty report. But I opted not to give you mods too much to look at.

EDIT: I concede that the post from October 2019 is posted in error; all the other posts are a selection from 2020.

Just a heads-up to the mods that while IM falsely accuses TFJS of making a "bad-faith" report, here he is making a vindictive, frivolous report in another thread where I reported someone else. In fact, consider this a separate report against him for mods as weapons and making frivolous reports:

What about this then?

Death to the CCP and the People's Republic of China!
Long Live Free and Democratic Hong Kong!
May members of the Chinese Communist Party and the Hong Kong government be sent to hell thanks to this plague and may Hong Kong enjoy freedom, democracy , health and justice for all.

At least with the part about wanting members of government to be sent to hell, seems to be wishing death

and there's a general comparison to a plague too

"Death to the CCP and the People's Republic of China" reasonably gives offence to anyone who might live in China (it's basically a variation of "death to [insert the name of another country]")

Not sure if any lines are crossed, just submitting it for review

It's pretty clear from the bolded that he only submitted that report in direct response to mine. I hate to think that Hong Kong People was only warned simply because I reported someone else. Now he's doing it again in this very thread to TFJS. Ironic that he falsely accuses TFJS of trying to silence him when that's exactly what he's trying to accomplish here. I wouldn't be surprised if he tries the same bullshit with me too.

I'm not going to spam Moderation by addressing some of the other barefaced lies in his vindictive, frivolous report against TFJS and his final defense. I already have him on ignore due to being baited on more than one occasion with none of my reports against him being deemed actionable, but seeing as this is a report thread, I'm forced to read his BS and respond accordingly. I cannot just sit by and watch him silence his critics one by one by using the mods as a weapon, then turn around and accuse them of doing the same to him. I just want to concur with TFJS that IM has been engaging in low-level baiting and trolling for at least a year now. Again, consider this a separate report.

[Santheres]

In light of the history shown, it's clear that any individual distasteful post might not otherwise be actionable but there is a clear pattern of saying such things for the sake of riling up others. I'm turning this into a *** Warn for trolling *** for Infected Mushroom.

If you need far lengthier posts to explain how you're not really trolling, then perhaps consider why your wording might warrant such a post to begin with.

[Infected Mushroom]

I’d like to request a second opinion thanks

The opinions are worded in a respectful and reasonable manner and the sound moral compass of North Korea was as “with respect to a particular matter” (the matter of the national security law in HK). I also don’t see how the posts could be “shaped up” since I have been providing sources and arguing in good faith. This amounts to only tolerating one side and one POV and in this debate.

I need “lengthy posts” to explain because I have made a large number of posts in the thread and many of the arguments made are not popular. It is easy to take out of context.

Please provide a second opinion, thanks.

[Santheres]

Raised the flag

[Shofercia]

In light of the history shown, it's clear that any individual distasteful post might not otherwise be actionable but there is a clear pattern of saying such things for the sake of riling up others. I'm turning this into a *** Warn for trolling *** for Infected Mushroom.

If you need far lengthier posts to explain how you're not really trolling, then perhaps consider why your wording might warrant such a post to begin with.

Question: what made you, or the moderation team as a whole, decide that IM is saying it for the sake of riling up others? As NSG posters, we should what the deciding factors are, because I hold unpopular opinions as well, following populism and realism and all that jazz, so I'm wondering at what point does an unpopular opinion being posted, gain the intent of "riling up others" rather than merely stating an opinion?

[Bombadil]

In light of the history shown, it's clear that any individual distasteful post might not otherwise be actionable but there is a clear pattern of saying such things for the sake of riling up others. I'm turning this into a *** Warn for trolling *** for Infected Mushroom.

If you need far lengthier posts to explain how you're not really trolling, then perhaps consider why your wording might warrant such a post to begin with.

Question: what made you, or the moderation team as a whole, decide that IM is saying it for the sake of riling up others? As NSG posters, we should what the deciding factors are, because I hold unpopular opinions as well, following populism and realism and all that jazz, so I'm wondering at what point does an unpopular opinion being posted, gain the intent of "riling up others" rather than merely stating an opinion?

Given I'm cited as calling him Poe, in no way speaking for the moderators or commenting on the warning or not, but the reason I have put him on ignore, the first poster I've ever put on ignore, whether Barringtonia or Bombadil, is not because he riles me up or bothers me but because he is simply not debating in good faith.

I've debated you, I've debated with SIC, who I believe is Mainland Chinese, both of you can exchange in constructive if not sometimes heated debate. You have your opinions, can concede a point, can put forth an alternative. We may not agree but we can engage.

IM is not doing that, he could simply state 'whatever Xi Jinping and Carrie Lam say is correct', and leave it that, because there's nothing else he really adds to the debate.

In addition it devolves the thread simply into people refuting his repeated parroting of 'follow the law (as laid down by Xi Jinping and Carrie Lam)', and not engaging in any debate beyond that.

At the point of saying North Korea has sound moral judgment, I'm sorry but I call Poe, not to say he's intentionally being a Poe but he has simply become a parody of his own opinion, forced by the rigid strictures of his position into absurd statements, similar to the idea that if Papua New Guinea wants to kill everyone in spectacles, if that's the law, then that is correct.

It's beyond absurd.

I could easily argue yellow is blue all day and stay within the rules, you ask me what colour a daisy is I reply blue. If your position is simply based on 'if Xi Jinping or Carrie Lam said it, then it is by default correct in fact', then there is little room for debate other than endlessly shooting down your posts on the matter.

It completely skews the thread and kills the discussion, I might put up an article for discussion, IM will instantly reply to parrot the party line and then it devolves into that conversation again.

That's why I put him on ignore, because I find it impossible to have an actual discussion given his behaviour. Whether it's on purpose or not by him, who can tell, one can simply observe the effects.

[Farnhamia]

I’d like to request a second opinion thanks

The opinions are worded in a respectful and reasonable manner and the sound moral compass of North Korea was as “with respect to a particular matter” (the matter of the national security law in HK). I also don’t see how the posts could be “shaped up” since I have been providing sources and arguing in good faith. This amounts to only tolerating one side and one POV and in this debate.

I need “lengthy posts” to explain because I have made a large number of posts in the thread and many of the arguments made are not popular. It is easy to take out of context.

Please provide a second opinion, thanks.

I'm going to uphold the warning, a little reluctantly but I agree with Santh that you've established a pattern of posting in such a way as to elicit a heated response from others. Trolling need not be intentional to be trolling. It's all in the way it's expressed.

[Infected Mushroom]

I’d like to request a second opinion thanks

The opinions are worded in a respectful and reasonable manner and the sound moral compass of North Korea was as “with respect to a particular matter” (the matter of the national security law in HK). I also don’t see how the posts could be “shaped up” since I have been providing sources and arguing in good faith. This amounts to only tolerating one side and one POV and in this debate.

I need “lengthy posts” to explain because I have made a large number of posts in the thread and many of the arguments made are not popular. It is easy to take out of context.

Please provide a second opinion, thanks.

I'm going to uphold the warning, a little reluctantly but I agree with Santh that you've established a pattern of posting in such a way as to elicit a heated response from others. Trolling need not be intentional to be trolling. It's all in the way it's expressed.

Very well.

Thank you for looking into it. Although I do not agree, it is my principle to obey the law and the rules and I will stand down on this matter for the greater good of the community.

For the sake of protecting this account from possible further sanctions in connection with the expression of unpopular political opinions and seeing as I am unable to find a more respectful way to express said opinions (they are what they are), I will endeavor to stay away from the thread and the general forum (and self censor) for an indefinite to permanent period. Ultimately, the leaders of every community have a right decide to restrict the free speech of the parties involved, where it is deemed that such speech interferes with an established public consensus or is in some way in breach of established norms of conduct.

Thank you for your kind consideration on this matter.

[The Free Joy State]

Thank you, Santh and Farn.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Thanks guys! *Eases lockdown restrictions*