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[Abandoned-Mission Accomplished] Liberate The Embassy

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.
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Jakker City
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

[Abandoned-Mission Accomplished] Liberate The Embassy

Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:16 pm

While a condemnation could serve valuable as well, a Liberation runs more in align with how this Security Council has handled similar situations in the past (Liberate KAISERREICH, Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators, Liberate Nazi Europa). Unlike those other Liberations, this can actually produce real change since the nominated region currently has a password and founderless. Liberate KAISERREICH even argued that the region should be liberated because they were trying to not be transparent with who they are. While The Embassy itself may not overtly practice nazi and fascism, they are still adding legitmacy and attention to it simply for the sake of promoting their own region. Yet they are not taking responsibility for it. This is where the SC can come in to create true change.

While not in the proposal, some of those regions I am mentioning include:
  • The Nazi Pacific
  • The Greater Nazi Empire
  • Nazi Afrika
  • United Fascist Federation
  • United Fascist Workers Association
  • Farkasfalka
  • The Holy Reich of Greater Germania
  • The Reich
  • The Seventh Reich
  • GroBdeutschland Reich
  • KAISERREICH
  • White Contra Brotherhood

The Security Council,

Defining an embassy as establishing formal diplomatic relations between two regions to increase communication,

Recognizing that embassies also serve to add visibility and legitimacy to a region due to a greater global presence,

Raising concerns about the practices of The Embassy, an embassy-collecting region, that boasts of having the most embassies in the world,

Understanding that this method is a form of attention-seeking similar to how The Embassy also holds every possible identity marker including Fascist,

Noting that to reach their current collection of nearly 5,000 embassies, the region has not only widely accepted relations with regions when requested, but has actively chosen to initiate relations,

Disgusted that they have pursued the establishment of relations with several regions that showcase varying levels of support for fascism, Nazi symbolism, or advocating supremacy,

Expressing disappointment that the concern of giving legitimacy to these regions was communicated to The Ambassadors Reception and no action has taken place yet,

Conveying that this Security Council has not only advocated against the promotion of fascist and Nazi ideals in the past, but has also passed Liberations to leave regions who engage in such problematic behaviors open for invasion,

Inspired by the recent invasion of SECFanatics, which led to the removal of 2,000+ embassies including with many fascist regions, similar to those listed above,

Concluding that liberating The Embassy would serve to hold this region accountable by leaving it open to possible invasion which would allow for the closing of these embassies,

Hereby Liberates The Embassy.
Last edited by Jakker City on Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:12 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:18 pm

Full support! :tbh_flag_wave:

"boosts" ---> "boasts"
Last edited by Tinhampton on Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jakker City
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:19 pm

Tinhampton wrote:Full support! :tbh_flag_wave:


While I appreciate the support, this is not related to TBH. This is a cause to call out an embassy-collecting region that chooses to promote themselves while also indirectly promoting less than ideal ideology without taking responsibility for it.

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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:52 pm

Fascist regions should not be advertised in the resolution.

Other than that, it looks good.

I look forward to the region's destruction. :)
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Featuleria
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Postby Featuleria » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:55 pm

I am against this proposal. The Embassy serves as an interregional message board, and is a record holder.
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The Allied Tribe
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Postby The Allied Tribe » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:57 pm

I am not voting because I left the WA, but I might rejoin to vote against this.
Last edited by The Allied Tribe on Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jakker City
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:58 pm

Praeceps wrote:Fascist regions should not be advertised in the resolution.

Other than that, it looks good.

I look forward to the region's destruction. :)


I agree with that, but I wasn't sure how to showcase the extent of the issue without listing them. I feel like it wouldn't have the same impact. Thoughts?

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Featuleria
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Postby Featuleria » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:03 pm

Jakker City wrote:
Praeceps wrote:Fascist regions should not be advertised in the resolution.

Other than that, it looks good.

I look forward to the region's destruction. :)


I agree with that, but I wasn't sure how to showcase the extent of the issue without listing them. I feel like it wouldn't have the same impact. Thoughts?

I feel that it would not have nearly as much of the same impact without advertising Fascist regions.
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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:11 pm

Featuleria wrote:I feel that it would not have nearly as much of the same impact without advertising Fascist regions.


Says someone who is in one of the regions :P

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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:22 pm

Featuleria wrote:I am against this proposal. The Embassy serves as an interregional message board, and is a record holder.

OOC: This. Offensive Liberations are also always wrong.
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Jakker City
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:27 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:
Featuleria wrote:I am against this proposal. The Embassy serves as an interregional message board, and is a record holder.

OOC: This. Offensive Liberations are also always wrong.


This Security Council has set the precedent and reinforced it multiple times that they can be used as a tangible way to advocate against a region's practices and hope to remove those practices through an invasion later. This proposal, in many ways, follows that very precedent.

I would also question agreeing with nations that are part of the regions listed as their disapproval only shows that embassies with them does give them legitimacy and therefore, we need to act.
Last edited by Jakker City on Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PotatoFarmers
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Postby PotatoFarmers » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:29 pm

Against. I know SECfanatics' invasion run has unintentionally achieved the goal of removing embassies for the fascist regions, but surely this liberation to remove embassies from another embassy collector feels more like an attempt to get another trophy then anything.
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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:31 pm

PotatoFarmers wrote:Against. I know SECfanatics' invasion run has unintentionally achieved the goal of removing embassies for the fascist regions, but surely this liberation to remove embassies from another embassy collector feels more like an attempt to get another trophy then anything.


Once the password is removed, anyone is capable of trying to take the region over and doing the noble service of removing the embassies.

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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:33 pm

Jakker City wrote:
Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: This. Offensive Liberations are also always wrong.


This Security Council has set the precedent and reinforced it multiple times that they can be used as a tangible way to advocate against a region's practices and hope to remove those practices through an invasion later. This proposal, in many ways, follows that very precedent.

I would also question agreeing with nations that are part of the regions listed as their disapproval only shows that embassies with them does give them legitimacy and therefore, we need to act.

OOC: This reeks more of another SECF, whereby TBH and co shut down thousands of embassies and take the region as a trophy, as opposed to genuine concerns about fascism. Also, Reductio ad Hitlerum.
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Jakker City
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:35 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:
Jakker City wrote:
This Security Council has set the precedent and reinforced it multiple times that they can be used as a tangible way to advocate against a region's practices and hope to remove those practices through an invasion later. This proposal, in many ways, follows that very precedent.

I would also question agreeing with nations that are part of the regions listed as their disapproval only shows that embassies with them does give them legitimacy and therefore, we need to act.

OOC: This reeks more of another SECF, whereby TBH and co shut down thousands of embassies and take the region as a trophy, as opposed to genuine concerns about fascism. Also, Reductio ad Hitlerum.


SECFanatics is not a trophy. The occupation has concluded and troops are withdrawing. And you can ask anyone involved in the raid, the plan from the beginning was just to remove the embassies.

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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:38 pm

Jakker City wrote:
Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: This reeks more of another SECF, whereby TBH and co shut down thousands of embassies and take the region as a trophy, as opposed to genuine concerns about fascism. Also, Reductio ad Hitlerum.


SECFanatics is not a trophy. The occupation has concluded and troops are withdrawing. And you can ask anyone involved in the raid, the plan from the beginning was just to remove the embassies.

OOC: Why all the embassies and not just fascist ones?
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Jakker City
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:43 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:
Jakker City wrote:
SECFanatics is not a trophy. The occupation has concluded and troops are withdrawing. And you can ask anyone involved in the raid, the plan from the beginning was just to remove the embassies.

OOC: Why all the embassies and not just fascist ones?


The goal of SECFanatics from the beginning was to close all of the embassies. The indirect benefit was also closing embassies with iffy regions as well as raising awareness to this issue. This particular proposal is somewhat related, but not the same. I cannot control what happens to The Embassy if they were to be Liberated or who would be in control. However, I do know for sure, no matter what, the region would be held accountable far more than they are now and it is likely that whoever takes control of the region or even if the natives stay in the control, these problematic embassies will go away.
Last edited by Jakker City on Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Warzone Codger
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Postby Warzone Codger » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:02 pm

I see The Embassy to be a public service (of dubious value) rather than a region.

It set out to be the universal RMB equivalent of forum.nationstates.net for those who prefer RMBs to forums for some reason.

It doesn't make judgements beyond site rules because that's the point.

Against.
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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:15 pm

Warzone Codger wrote:I see The Embassy to be a public service (of dubious value) rather than a region.

It set out to be the universal RMB equivalent of forum.nationstates.net for those who prefer RMBs to forums for some reason.

It doesn't make judgements beyond site rules because that's the point.

Against.


Yet countless regions including the ones I have listed do not use the region for that purpose. Embassies with them simply serve to boast The Embassy's count and legitimize ideals that should not be promoted. I'd argue that it is not judgement to be against having embassies with regions who advocate hate and discrimination. Instead, it is thoughtful inclusion. The point that it is okay for them to blindly accept everyone and see that as some kind of noble act is silly.
Last edited by Jakker City on Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Featuleria
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Postby Featuleria » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:22 pm

Warzone Codger wrote:I see The Embassy to be a public service (of dubious value) rather than a region.

It set out to be the universal RMB equivalent of forum.nationstates.net for those who prefer RMBs to forums for some reason.

It doesn't make judgements beyond site rules because that's the point.

Against.

I agree with you on this.
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Praeceps
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Praeceps » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:33 pm

Jakker City wrote:
Praeceps wrote:Fascist regions should not be advertised in the resolution.

Other than that, it looks good.

I look forward to the region's destruction. :)


I agree with that, but I wasn't sure how to showcase the extent of the issue without listing them. I feel like it wouldn't have the same impact. Thoughts?
I think listing the regions in the OP of your post (but not the resolution itself) is sufficient. So I'd remove the "including" and everything following it including the following clause regarding KR.
Marxist Germany wrote:
Jakker City wrote:
This Security Council has set the precedent and reinforced it multiple times that they can be used as a tangible way to advocate against a region's practices and hope to remove those practices through an invasion later. This proposal, in many ways, follows that very precedent.

I would also question agreeing with nations that are part of the regions listed as their disapproval only shows that embassies with them does give them legitimacy and therefore, we need to act.

OOC: This reeks more of another SECF, whereby TBH and co shut down thousands of embassies and take the region as a trophy, as opposed to genuine concerns about fascism. Also, Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Funny how the first mention of Hitler in this thread was by you...
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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:54 pm

#JakkerShouldResign when? :p

But seriously, the Embassy may have unsavory embassies and tags, but even I wouldn’t go so far to liberate them. Besides, I don’t think TBH’s objective is to close fascist embassies once they get in, rather to destroy the entire region. Unless this is used to scare them into withdrawing embassies, I’m against. Even actual fascist regions like the Coalition of Fascist Nations didn’t get a liberation movement pass, and they had the tag and the embassies and a lot more.

Also why are you drawing attention to their attention seeking tactics? I think that should be changed.
Last edited by Honeydewistania on Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:05 pm

While this is awfully inconvenient to our anti-fascist war and perhaps ulterior anti-embassy collecting motives, it can't be reasonably expected that the Embassy checks every region, especially given that the Embassy has historically allowed most people to send embassy requests for them (I recall them recruiting to it when they had a founder).

Furthermore, the Embassy only has a self-imposed obligation to create "the universal RMB equivalent of forum.nationstates.net" (from Codger), and they appear to take the same stance as NationStates Moderation regarding fascism. This is intended to be an artificial site feature; an emulation of the forums. In your opinion (as a player, not a moderator), should the forums ban fascists? If not, what's the difference? Just like NS moderators, the Embassy has no obligation to be a moral enforcer. The Embassy only has the obligation to create a universal RMB. They should not be sucked into our fight.

Thirdly, what damage are these embassies causing? I could understand liberating CCD or NAZI EUROPE because those heavily recruited to fascism. However, the Embassy does not give fascists a pulpit because they're sending embassy requests to everyone. Of the embassies you listed, none of them appear to have recruited via the Embassy judging by RMB searches of their names (you would likely have to name it to recruit for it), and I doubt that would have any effect anyways. The most I could find was this and this. "Shut it all down; clearly the Embassy is a hub for fascism". The Embassy has about 10,000 RMB messages, only a few a which even mention fascism.

Lastly, we can't trust anyone to only close the fascist embassies, especially after SECFanatics (of which I was a raider in).

I'd prefer an anti-"embassy spamming" argument, because I simply haven't been convinced of the fascism argument.




I'm glad that Jakker is more hands-on in debates on his proposal. In the first Commend COE draft and Cormac's C&Cs, I noticed he just passively sat back at the criticism, and that didn't seem to work (perhaps him arguing would've helped).
Last edited by Bormiar on Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Jakker City
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:40 pm

Praeceps wrote:I think listing the regions in the OP of your post (but not the resolution itself) is sufficient. So I'd remove the "including" and everything following it including the following clause regarding KR.


I've made the edit accordingly.

Honeydewistania wrote:#JakkerShouldResign when? :p

But seriously, the Embassy may have unsavory embassies and tags, but even I wouldn’t go so far to liberate them. Besides, I don’t think TBH’s objective is to close fascist embassies once they get in, rather to destroy the entire region. Unless this is used to scare them into withdrawing embassies, I’m against. Even actual fascist regions like the Coalition of Fascist Nations didn’t get a liberation movement pass, and they had the tag and the embassies and a lot more.

Also why are you drawing attention to their attention seeking tactics? I think that should be changed.


As I said before, there is no guarantee that TBH would be the ones to invade it. I imagine various other groups will be interested. It is also possible that defenders may try to prevent a raid attempt by piling into the region. I don't think it makes sense to base the decision of how to vote based on what might happen once the password is removed. As far as I know, that argument has never been used for any other Liberation like this one.

Bormiar wrote:The Embassy only has the obligation to create a universal RMB.


I think that is the mentality we need to do away with. The Embassy has zero obligation to universally allow embassies with regions and to communicate on their RMB. They have chosen to do this. They can choose to have expectations of what they allow and do not allow. Setting some kind of standard should not be seen as something insurmountable. And I'd argue that it is very reasonable to expect The Embassy to check every region that they propose embassies with or accept. As someone who regularly has do this exact thing in TBH, it doesn't take a ton of time to simply do a quick glance of the regional characteristics and go from there. Lastly, I also want to dispel this notion that their practice of having a universal RMB where regions can recruit and communicate as this totally altruistic thing. It is a means of drawing attention. All embassy collectors do so for attention to some degree.

Bormiar wrote:Thirdly, what damage are these embassies causing?


I saw this in SECFanatics and have noticed this elsewhere. Many regions like having more embassies because it is a sign of diplomacy, of their region connecting with others. Having embassies with other regions absolutely means something. If The Embassy is to be regarded as the central hub for in-game regions of NationStates, then an embassy with them serves to affirm a problematic region's beliefs and practices. Also, if embassies did not mean much, we wouldn't have embassy-collecting regions.

Bormiar wrote:I'd prefer an anti-"embassy spamming" argument, because I simply haven't been convinced of the fascism argument.


There's no reason I cannot do both. I think both have their issues and I can add the embassy spamming piece to the proposal later.
Last edited by Jakker City on Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Savoir
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Postby Savoir » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:49 pm

Featuleria wrote:I am against this proposal. The Embassy serves as an interregional message board, and is a record holder.

Eh, the Embassy's RMB is not even active. And all those embassy requests sure do get annoying.

Even though I think it would kinda be fun to watch the Embassy burn, this proposal really is straight up bullying. I know some of you don't care about that and rather see this as an opportunity to have a bit of fun while feeling moral about it, but this doesn't feel right.
Last edited by Savoir on Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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