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[PASSED] Repeal Liberate Iran

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Kuriko
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[PASSED] Repeal Liberate Iran

Postby Kuriko » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:26 pm

First off, I would like to apologize for not following normal procedure and doing a thread first. In this instance, it was deemed the correct course of action to give raiders as little hint or time as possible about our intentions. Now, to the proposal.

The Security Council,

Recalling the state the region of Iran was in before the passage of SC#241: Liberate Iran, having been passworded and left inactive by Persian Empire operatives;

Thankful that the passage of SC#241 allowed long-time native nation Iramerica to return to its home region, where they had been banished from for up to five years;

Saddened, however, by the many raids Iran has faced over the last two years which have hindered attempts at growing a stable community within the region;

Noting that Iramerica has expressed interest in securing the region by means of a refound;

Believing that the imposition of a password on Iran’s borders is a prerequisite for a safe refound, without outside interference by raider forces;

Hereby repeals SC#241: Liberate Iran.

Co-authored by Kuriko.


The Security Council,

Recalling the state the region of Iran was in before the passage of SC#241: Liberate Iran, having been passworded and left inactive by Persian Empire operatives;

Thankful that the passage of SC#241 allowed long-time native nation Iramerica to return to its home region, where they had been banished from for up to five years;

Saddened, however, by the many raids Iran has faced over the last two years by The Black Hawks which have hindered attempts at growing a stable community within the region;

Noting that Iramerica has expressed interest in securing the region by means of a refound;

Believing that the imposition of a password on Iran’s borders is a prerequisite for a safe refound, without outside interference by raider forces;

Hereby repeals SC#241: Liberate Iran.

Co-authored by Kuriko.
Last edited by Ransium on Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:31 pm

A link to the proposal. Note that Iramerica has been piled on by about fifty defenders, of which he has appointed six as Border Patrol.

No comment on the proposal, other than to remark: It's one thing for an experienced author to co-author a Liberation-related proposal with a native, another entirely for a native to co-author such a proposal with an experienced author...
Author: SC#250, SC#251, SC#267, GA#484
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:42 pm

Tinhampton wrote:A link to the proposal. Note that Iramerica has been piled on by about fifty defenders, of which he has appointed six as Border Patrol.

No comment on the proposal, other than to remark: It's one thing for an experienced author to co-author a Liberation-related proposal with a native, another entirely for a native to co-author such a proposal with an experienced author...

What are you trying to imply Tin?
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Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:57 pm

Only took two years and change to get here :roll:
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Postby Vincent Drake » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:00 pm

Are you saying that a native doesn't deserve to take primary authorship over a resolution concerning their own region if they want to? Kuriko stepping aside to give Iramerica cred is a nice gesture, no? Way to be an elitist, Tin.
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Postby Jakker » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:09 pm

It does feel like a change of pace to see defenders working alongside natives publicly as opposed to the typical modern tactics of primarily doing something to be against raiders without actually engaging with the natives.
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:33 pm

Refounds are fun. Best of luck to anyone trying to snatch it.
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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:38 pm

For the record, I was positively surprised! :> We've had NSUN proposals in the past get something like 320+ approvals, are we going to be above or below that number by the time this gets to vote?
Author: SC#250, SC#251, SC#267, GA#484
Joint author: Issue #1115 (with Turbeaux)
Co-author: GA#491 (by The Greater Soviet North America)
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Postby Wayneactia » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:18 pm

Tinhampton wrote:We've had NSUN proposals in the past get something like 320+ approvals, are we going to be above or below that number by the time this gets to vote?

Why does it really matter? All it needs to do is achieve quorum. Seriously?

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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:33 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:We've had NSUN proposals in the past get something like 320+ approvals, are we going to be above or below that number by the time this gets to vote?

Why does it really matter? All it needs to do is achieve quorum. Seriously?

For the record, here's what happened next...

And why does it matter, in turn, if Iran is passworded or not by the time it gets cleared at update? We've had raiders swipe defender refounds before and defenders swipe raider refounds before (waves at GRO).
Author: SC#250, SC#251, SC#267, GA#484
Joint author: Issue #1115 (with Turbeaux)
Co-author: GA#491 (by The Greater Soviet North America)
New recipe - now contains 4.9g of sugar per 100ml
RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

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Postby United Provinces of Atlantica » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:03 pm

The World Assembly of 2020 is not the United Nations of 2004. The only time I can remember something getting approvals in the vein of that 2004-era proposal was the Internet Net Neutrality Act, which got I think a little over 200 approvals; I'm sure there are more that a more experienced and informed player could recall, but I can't think of any others at this point in time.

But that's beyond the point. This proposal is virtually guaranteed to reach quorum and likely to pass, and that's all that matters here; beyond that point, Defenderdom will act as it will and complete the mission.
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Postby Devi » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:09 pm

The WA GenSec, of all people, defying conventions and skipping the forumside drafting process? How shameful.

Look forward to trying to swipe the refound~ :blush:
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:29 pm

Jakker wrote:It does feel like a change of pace to see defenders working alongside natives publicly as opposed to the typical modern tactics of primarily doing something to be against raiders without actually engaging with the natives.

When I used to defend defenders always worked alongside the natives. You have to stop reading your own propaganda Jakker.
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Jakker
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Postby Jakker » Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:38 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Jakker wrote:It does feel like a change of pace to see defenders working alongside natives publicly as opposed to the typical modern tactics of primarily doing something to be against raiders without actually engaging with the natives.

When I used to defend defenders always worked alongside the natives. You have to stop reading your own propaganda Jakker.


My point was that it seems to happen less often these days and the general focus has turn more so to being against raiders. Most recent example was the liberation attempt of Asia without asking the natives first.
Last edited by Jakker on Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:13 pm

Jakker wrote:
Drop Your Pants wrote:When I used to defend defenders always worked alongside the natives. You have to stop reading your own propaganda Jakker.


My point was that it seems to happen less often these days and the general focus has turn more so to being against raiders. Most recent example was the liberation attempt of Asia without asking the natives first.

Natives were talked to first, or did you skip over the post that Numero made about having native permission? This isn't Liberate Asia, so I don't see why y'all are bringing it up here.
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Postby Daytime to Night » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:24 pm

This was discussed two years ago, and again six months ago, and we've always presented the options to natives in Iran. Obviously we have waited until this was the step they wanted to take and this is very much moving forward with their support and participation.

Iramerica also was clearly working very closely with us during the last occupation of Iran, which would have been obvious to anyone paying attention. Native/defender collaboration isn't anything novel or notable and I am pleased this liberation will give them control over their own borders again.
Last edited by Daytime to Night on Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jakker
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Postby Jakker » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:38 pm

Kuriko wrote:
Jakker wrote:
My point was that it seems to happen less often these days and the general focus has turn more so to being against raiders. Most recent example was the liberation attempt of Asia without asking the natives first.

Natives were talked to first, or did you skip over the post that Numero made about having native permission? This isn't Liberate Asia, so I don't see why y'all are bringing it up here.


That was said by Numero several days after the fact. Can't blame people for having a hard time believing that in full for the lack of transparency then. And yes, there is still some connections and my point from the beginning is that there is clear contrast of how that situation was handled and how this one is being handled; starting with the move to have the native authoring. I think it is nice to see you all learning from the Asia situation.
Last edited by Jakker on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:05 am

Jakker wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Natives were talked to first, or did you skip over the post that Numero made about having native permission? This isn't Liberate Asia, so I don't see why y'all are bringing it up here.


That was said by Numero several days after the fact. Can't blame people for having a hard time believing that in full for the lack of transparency then. And yes, there is still some connections and my point from the beginning is that there is clear contrast of how that situation was handled and how this one is being handled; starting with the move to have the native authoring. I think it is nice to see you all learning from the Asia situation.

Jakker, this is nothijg new in how defenders operate and work with natives. We worked with the Asia natives and had permission beforehand, so stop trying to peddle TBH's misinformation and save us all a lot of pointless bickering.
Last edited by Kuriko on Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jakker
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Postby Jakker » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:34 am

Kuriko wrote:
Jakker wrote:
That was said by Numero several days after the fact. Can't blame people for having a hard time believing that in full for the lack of transparency then. And yes, there is still some connections and my point from the beginning is that there is clear contrast of how that situation was handled and how this one is being handled; starting with the move to have the native authoring. I think it is nice to see you all learning from the Asia situation.

Jakker, this is nothijg new in how defenders operate and work with natives. We worked with the Asia natives and had permission beforehand, so stop trying to peddle TBH's lies and misinformation and save us all a lot of pointless bickering.


Firstly, I'd like to point out again that I am but one bird trying to make it in this thing we call NationStates. I am just calling it as I see it. Secondly, I am a little confused how anything I have said can be regarded as lies and misinformation. Let's recap:

Jakker wrote:It does feel like a change of pace to see defenders working alongside natives publicly as opposed to the typical modern tactics of primarily doing something to be against raiders without actually engaging with the natives.


I'd like to first draw your attention to my first post, specifically to the word "publicly". Let me call in my friend, LeVar Burton, to help break this down since you all don't seem to listen to me well...

Image Image

Hi! LeVar Burton, here. The main definition of this word is, "so as to be seen by other people; in public." So Jakker was pointing out that in public spaces like the forum, defenders do not often do a great job of showcasing engagement with natives. Instead, the goals of several actions by them like posts, including from yourself, is more geared towards being against raiders. Jakker was kind enough to go into more detail with his next post:

Jakker wrote:My point was that it seems to happen less often these days and the general focus has turn more so to being against raiders. Most recent example was the liberation attempt of Asia without asking the natives first.


This movement towards anti-raiding practices has existed to some degree for a time (from what Jakker tells me!). Our neighborhood baby shark, Mall, asked the innocent question of whether natives were consulted about this attempt like what is common SC practice. One that if anyone would be so conscious of not only upholding, but actively and explicitly communicating, it would be the Secretary-General.

And yet, rather than upholding that standard, you were doing the opposite. You stated that you had posted the Liberation attempt before speaking with natives.

So now, let's take a minute to return to our word of the day, which is "publicly." I am going to need everyone to put on their thinking caps!

Image

Now maybe defenders are just bad at communicating and were not being transparent about their engagement with the natives. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, so we can only go off of what was said publicly. One would think that if natives were involved and Kuriko just misspoke, she would have noted that once prompted, but instead the focus was that raiders are bad for thinking that defenders do not care about what natives think AND they have not heard back from the natives yet.

It was finally revealed publicly that the natives gave their approval for the liberation attempt over ten hours after the initial OP.

As Kuriko pointed out in an earlier post in this thread, Numero mentioned that he apparently had been in contact with the natives for weeks. I'm just an outsider in all of this, but why would Numero not say that earlier? He even posted in that thread shortly after the question was raised and Kuriko mentioned that the natives were telegrammed, so public transparency seems a little off to me!

Numero then expanded further to say that there seems to have been miscommunication between him and Kuriko. He had been engaging with the natives, but Kuriko was not. This then leads into Jakker's most recent post here.

So now I will bring a final explanation of this and hope you can understand!

Image

Jakker was articulating that there was a difference in the public communication/transparency of the messaging between defenders and natives, specifically in the two threads. I am no expert here, but if one is writing a proposal that will significantly impact a region, it is important to be clear with how involved natives are!

Liberate Asia Thread: No mention of natives being involved in the OP/proposal, proposal written by Kuriko who personally had done so without any knowledge of or engagement with the natives, no communication from Numero to Kuriko or to the public that natives had been involved until later, and it was not super clear that the natives even wanted a Liberation but rather that they were trusting the defenders to do what is best. Trust is so important! And with trust comes responsibility.

Repeal Liberate Iran: Long-standing native is the author of the proposal, there were clear discussions with them to work on moving towards repealing this before them posting, and they were the ones that actively chose this option. These actions are much more focused on the natives and publicly (our word!) showcased that. Seems like a clear difference to me!

In conclusion, there is nothing that Jakker said that can be interpreted as lies. If you want to question his intention or say that he is trying to turn something into propaganda, go for it! But it is important to be willing to accept criticism and learn from one's mistakes. As Jakker noted, it does seem like defenders learned from the previous thread involving a Liberation and you know how much I love learning!

Anyways, that is it for me, LeVar Burton. I'll see you next time.

Image
Last edited by Jakker on Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:15 am

Jakker wrote:snip

I actually edited out the lies part Jakker, and you weren't even on the forum when I did so from what I could see. Did you add it back into my post afterwords? Because, fyi, I edited it out due to realising it was a bad choice of words.
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Jakker
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Postby Jakker » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:31 am

Kuriko wrote:
Jakker wrote:snip

I actually edited out the lies part Jakker, and you weren't even on the forum when I did so from what I could see. Did you add it back into my post afterwords? Because, fyi, I edited it out due to realising it was a bad choice of words.


1) I was likely in the process of collaborating with Levar on that amazing post when you edited it, so I did not see the edit until you just pointed it out. 2) I will not bring him back to do another lesson because he is a busy man, but just because "misinformation" appears softer than "lies" does not change that it doesn't virtually mean the same thing: "False or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive" vs. "An assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone."
Last edited by Jakker on Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:40 am

We've learned two important things from this repeal effort:

  • Fendas are looking to refound Iran, rightly confident that they will pass this resolution; and
  • Jakker is clearly collecting unemployment since there is no other way he would have had time to make that post.
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Postby Jakker » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:52 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:Jakker is clearly collecting unemployment since there is no other way he would have had time to make that post.


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Postby Daytime to Night » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:42 am

It would be nice to have actual discussions in the Security Council rather than targeted wind-ups and spam from current and former moderators. Unfortunately, I can only put one of you on my ignore list...
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:08 pm

Daytime to Night wrote:It would be nice to have actual discussions in the Security Council rather than targeted wind-ups and spam from current and former moderators. Unfortunately, I can only put one of you on my ignore list...

Words can hurt Numero. There's no reason we can't be civil about this.

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Jakker wrote:It does feel like a change of pace to see defenders working alongside natives publicly as opposed to the typical modern tactics of primarily doing something to be against raiders without actually engaging with the natives.

When I used to defend defenders always worked alongside the natives. You have to stop reading your own propaganda Jakker.

I've always wondered how things worked back in the stone age :p
Devi wrote:The WA GenSec, of all people, defying conventions and skipping the forumside drafting process? How shameful.

Look forward to trying to swipe the refound~ :blush:

It's fair enough really, you don't want to hold the region any longer than you have to. It would just invite challenge.
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