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Socialism v.s. Capitalism - Which one is better and why?

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Delageon
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Socialism v.s. Capitalism - Which one is better and why?

Postby Delageon » Fri May 29, 2020 1:21 pm

Socialism v.s. Capitalism - Which One is Better and Why?

This thread is meant to be for civil debate about the merits of Capitalism and Socialism. I expect the debates to be polite and respectful, and no angry rants or insulting other debaters personally. That's not what we're about here. I'm also going to say if you are coming here just because you want to "Destroy the Libtards", then this thread is not for you. The debate here is to be intellectual, and you should provide evidence to back up what you say. Be open to what others have to say, and try to look at it from their opinion. Below I'll post the definitions of Socialism and Capitalism so that nobody gets confused.
Capitalism

An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. For Example, the U.S.A.

Socialism

Social democracy is a government system that has similar values to socialism, but within a capitalist framework. The ideology, named from democracy where people have a say in government actions, supports a competitive economy with money while also helping people whose jobs don't pay a lot. For Example: Canada, U.K., France, Germany, pretty much every Western nation besides the U.S. This does not include China or Russia.

So basically we are discussing the merits of either a complete Capitalist Society and a hybrid Communist/Capitalist system in the other countries mentioned above.
Last edited by Delageon on Fri May 29, 2020 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Delageon » Fri May 29, 2020 1:22 pm

To start out the thread, I'll lay out my basic perspective on the subject.
I believe that Socialism, or more specifically Democratic Socialism, is better as a whole than Capitalism. This is because of two factors: Socialism is better for individuals, and Socialism will be needed for the future of humanity. I'll explain further below.

In a Capitalistic society, the primary focus is profit. While people are needed to make a profit, they are no central focus. The political system is built around catering to business, and as a result, the people will be paid little to no attention. The only times when change is made is when it is beneficial to the business, and if the people push for something that businesses don't want (i.e. Oil Conglomerates v.s. the majority of the public) business will do whatever they can to hinder it, and will often succeed in doing so. While this does seem to generate huge prosperity for the nation, that money is going to the wealthy rather than the citizens. If you live in a society built around this then you are either the Super-Rich or the poor, and that divide just widens with each generation.

On the other hand, in a socialist society, the main goal of the government is to cater to the needs of the people. When the government's central focus is on the people, it will ultimately result in more equality and thus better lives for its people. Democratic Socialism is, in my opinion, the best way to combine these two philosophies. You can keep the free markets, but when having to choose between Business and People the government should choose people. For example, although the private healthcare system of the U.S. does facilitate economic growth through the businesses that are in that industry, it also creates inequality. That is just one of the few cases where the government should be choosing people rather than businesses.

My second point is more speculative but still just as relevant. As automation advances on more and more jobs, not all of them will be replaced. AI will eventually be much more cost-effective than people from the Trades to Office Jobs, and eventually even Creative jobs such as Composition and Film-making. In a Democratic Socialist nation, this will not be a very hard problem to overcome, as they already have in place the systems needed to take care of those without jobs. It isn't that far of a leap from providing Health Care and Housing to the poor to providing it to everyone in a Socialist society.

In a Capitalist society, the government does not have the infrastructure or mindset to deal with skyrocketing unemployment. Since it is built to cater to the businesses, the government will not begin to deal with the problem until it is too late. The common right-wing sentiment of "Give them jobs, not welfare" will become obsolete. This will be a huge problem for Capitalistic societies, as they will be unable to deal with this exponential unemployment.


Thank you to those who have gone over my argument, and I hope that you will add your perspective to the thread and contribute to the discussions going on here.

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Last edited by Delageon on Fri May 29, 2020 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sundiata
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Command Economy vs Market Economy

Postby Sundiata » Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 pm

My bias is that command economies aren't compatible with democracy. I don't know if that's true but that's what I was taught in school.

Anyway, capital can be used towards social ends in a market economy. For example, workers cooperatives. Resources can also be used to enrich a few in a command economy. For example, Stalinism. I don't personally identify as a capitalist or a socialist.


I personally opt for mixed-market economies.
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Postby Geneviev » Fri May 29, 2020 1:53 pm

1. I do not agree with using social democracy as the definition for socialism. They are extremely different.
2. Socialism is better. Among other things, capitalism has led to the development of various forms of oppression, including sexism, racism, and homophobia, in addition to the crimes of imperialism. It also requires the exploitation of labor by the capitalists. Socialism would allow the people to have full democratic rights and to benefit from the fruits of their labor instead of it being stolen from them by the capitalists.
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Postby Swiss Empirical » Fri May 29, 2020 1:54 pm

All the fascists and nazbols are gonna feel left out in this thread.
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Postby Delageon » Fri May 29, 2020 2:02 pm

Geneviev wrote:1. I do not agree with using social democracy as the definition for socialism. They are extremely different.
2. Socialism is better. Among other things, capitalism has led to the development of various forms of oppression, including sexism, racism, and homophobia, in addition to the crimes of imperialism. It also requires the exploitation of labor by the capitalists. Socialism would allow the people to have full democratic rights and to benefit from the fruits of their labor instead of it being stolen from them by the capitalists.


I agree. The main goal of the government should NOT be to maximize profits and the economy, but rather use those as a means to further the prosperity of its people. A society that is built to serve the people is best, but only when paired to democracy so that the government can be kept in check and so that the government is truly representing the needs and wants of the citizenry.

Also, I'll change the word to Socialism for brevity.
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Postby Saiwania » Fri May 29, 2020 2:30 pm

Neither system is ideal but one usually works better than the other when applied to different situations. Healthcare seems to fail miserably when privatized but manufacturing certain goods is clearly more efficient under capitalism. Most economies aren't completely socialist nor privatized.

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Postby The New California Republic » Fri May 29, 2020 2:33 pm

This thread seems to be trying to steal the thunder of both the LWDT and RWDT...
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Postby Middle Barael » Fri May 29, 2020 2:34 pm

I like a social denocracy best, as it has both free market capitalism and regulations and taxes to help keep corporations from abusing their workers, as well as paying for social programs. I think of it as the best of both worlds, with the economic freedom of pure capitalism and the social justice of socialism.
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Postby The Red Sword » Fri May 29, 2020 2:35 pm

As a social democrat, don't lump in social democracy with socialism. Social democracy is 100% a form of capitalism. You're confusing it with democratic socialism.
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Postby The Sladerstan » Fri May 29, 2020 2:38 pm

I like neither Capitalism nor Socialism, they are both extremes. The best is the middle ground, between Capitalist. My preferred economic system is made up by me (Providentialism), which is basically the economy is State owned, workers are guaranteed living wages, home, education, and Healthcare, and the State operates like a Capitalist corporation, seeking profit and looking for the best opportunities to trade with foreign nations or corporations.

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Postby Dangine » Fri May 29, 2020 2:40 pm

Capitalism is better, Socialism can not work in huge populations, like how direct Democracy can not work in big populations.
Socialism is purely ideological, you can at least say Social Democracy works in the Nordic countries or Capitalism does not lead to economic collapse, Socialism you cant, for the most part, there have been a few examples of short-lived Socialist societies.
Socialists use the argument that there never has been a true Socialist country, but that is because it's impossible to achieve it. We have had small socialist places like Revolutionary Catalonia during the Spanish civil war, in which Socialist ideas were actually practiced, but they were crushed by the Republican forces do to their weak military, it was short-lived. Revolutionary Catalonia wasn't perfect either, they committed war crimes and oppressed religion and those that believed in it.
Socialism has had its chance but has failed almost every single time, and it has never been successful in a country with a big population, like the U.S, the country I live in. Capitalism may have its flaws, but it works and it's not as evil as Socialists make it out to be.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri May 29, 2020 2:41 pm

The New California Republic wrote:This thread seems to be trying to steal the thunder of both the LWDT and RWDT...

I sense a plot to destroy the Political wings.
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Postby The Red Sword » Fri May 29, 2020 2:42 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:This thread seems to be trying to steal the thunder of both the LWDT and RWDT...

I sense a plot to destroy the Political wings.

The dark side of the ideologies surrounds the OP...
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Postby Delageon » Fri May 29, 2020 2:59 pm

Dangine wrote:Capitalism is better, Socialism can not work in huge populations, like how direct Democracy can not work in big populations.
Socialism is purely ideological, you can at least say Social Democracy works in the Nordic countries or Capitalism does not lead to economic collapse, Socialism you cant, for the most part, there have been a few examples of short-lived Socialist societies.
Socialists use the argument that there never has been a true Socialist country, but that is because it's impossible to achieve it. We have had small socialist places like Revolutionary Catalonia during the Spanish civil war, in which Socialist ideas were actually practiced, but they were crushed by the Republican forces do to their weak military, it was short-lived. Revolutionary Catalonia wasn't perfect either, they committed war crimes and oppressed religion and those that believed in it.
Socialism has had its chance but has failed almost every single time, and it has never been successful in a country with a big population, like the U.S, the country I live in. Capitalism may have its flaws, but it works and it's not as evil as Socialists make it out to be.


I believe that in the end, Socialism will be needed for society to function. If humans are not needed for wealth, then a capitalist society will not work. Since humans are needed to buy things in capitalism, a world where people are not generating wealth does not work for it. Only with something like the UBI will a capitalist society still be able to function, but the UBI is a socialist ideal. Truly socialist states will be much better prepared for such a future than Capitalist societies.
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Postby Chan Island » Fri May 29, 2020 3:13 pm

Some form of Democratic Socialism is the best.
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Postby British Socialist Syndicates » Fri May 29, 2020 3:19 pm

I believe that socialism is preferable to capitalism, but it can only be properly implemented when a society is ready for it. When Karl Marx wrote about socialism, he assumed that the first workers' revolution would occur in an advanced, industrialised society like Germany or the US, rather than an agrarian feudal nation like Russia. This is, I think, the main reason why the Soviet Union eventually failed - it wasn't ready for socialism, because it had not yet gone through the necessary stages of capitalism and industrialisation. Even in the most advanced capitalist systems of the 21st century, the conditions still aren't right for a complete transition to a socialist economy. This is why I think a stronger version of social democracy / market socialism is the best option for the immediate future, to make the eventual transition to a socialist economy somewhat easier.

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Postby Saiwania » Fri May 29, 2020 3:20 pm

One of capitalism's single biggest failings appear to be on the environmental front, namely the externalities in cases where that exists. It isn't profitable to clean up pollution, so industry/businesses have every incentive to ignore it or socialize the losses if a ton of waste/pollution winds up getting produced and it later becomes a problem over the long term.

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Postby Delageon » Fri May 29, 2020 3:26 pm

Saiwania wrote:One of capitalism's single biggest failings appear to be on the environmental front, namely the externalities in cases where that exists. It isn't profitable to clean up pollution, so industry/businesses have every incentive to ignore it or socialize the losses if a ton of waste/pollution winds up getting produced and it later becomes a problem over the long term.


Exactly. Since a capitalist society is built on profit and driven by profit, the environment is shunted to the side by default. Corporations only clean up the environment when it makes them more profitable, or when the government forces them to. If the government didn't intervene then the environment would be 100% worse than it is now, at least.
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Postby Sundiata » Fri May 29, 2020 3:31 pm

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Postby The Sladerstan » Fri May 29, 2020 4:08 pm

Sundiata wrote:Most people are centrists like me.

Yeah

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Postby Cisairse » Fri May 29, 2020 4:47 pm

Capitalism is a disaster tbh.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Fri May 29, 2020 4:56 pm

People have a hard time imagining a socialist society because they've grown up under capitalism their whole life and can't imagine a different world.

Remember that prices are artificial. We say a car is $4,000 because that is a value we give it, but if people changed their thought process on the issue, we could really use the resources for free. And I know this couldn't happen overnight. But to say it is totally impossible ever is just silly. I believe socialism is better than capitalism because capitalism easily descends into "profits before people." I clearly do not support the kind of "socialism" we saw in the USSR, but instead liberterian socialism. The cold hard capitalism of today is destroying this planet and if we don't change our ways soon, this society will collapse.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri May 29, 2020 5:02 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:People have a hard time imagining a socialist society because they've grown up under capitalism their whole life and can't imagine a different world.

Remember that prices are artificial. We say a car is $4,000 because that is a value we give it, but if people changed their thought process on the issue, we could really use the resources for free. And I know this couldn't happen overnight. But to say it is totally impossible ever is just silly. I believe socialism is better than capitalism because capitalism easily descends into "profits before people." I clearly do not support the kind of "socialism" we saw in the USSR, but instead liberterian socialism. The cold hard capitalism of today is destroying this planet and if we don't change our ways soon, this society will collapse.

It seems you're proposing a command economy with the complete absence of markets.
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Postby Dominioan » Fri May 29, 2020 5:03 pm

Okay here’s the thing. Democratic Socialism is superior to capitalism-but not the USSR socialism. Every person I talk to today is like “bro the Soviets were communist, you liked them?” But that’s not the socialism I support. I also kind of like the idea of social democracy/social capitalism.
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