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Is time for Men to get the right to vote?

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Galloism
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Is time for Men to get the right to vote?

Postby Galloism » Sun May 24, 2020 5:45 pm

100 years after the 19th amendment (just about, it's in august), I think back to how women have gotten the right to vote immediately upon turning 18, with no conditions.

100 years later, men still do not have the right to vote. That right not a right at all, but a privilege based on signing up with the selective service - putting their name in the hat to be chosen to die. Fortunately, we're not currently using the selective service system to fill the ranks of this military, but that could change.

(Minor edit for meaning in the above paragraph)

A court case brought by the National Coalition for Men actually challenged this inequality, and the district court found that this requirement was unconstitutional, but the unconstitutional requirement still remains, in spite of the court ruling, for the court failed to declare relief. The eagle forum (a conservative group) appealed the ruling, and several other groups across various political ideologies joined the National Coalition for Men as it went to the court of appeals - American Civil Liberties Union Foundation of Texas, American Civil Liberties Union, 9to5 National Association of Working Women, A Better Balance, Gender Justice, KWH Law Center for Social Justice and Change, National Organization for Women Foundation, National Women’s Law Center, Women’s Law Center of Maryland, and Women’s Law Project. This is an area where it looks like men's groups and women's groups broadly agree.

And it looks like we're making progress on getting men the right to vote, 100 years after women got the right to vote. But there's still appeals and stuff to go no doubt.

Beyond that, men are disproportionately affected by laws that result in them losing the right to vote (typically for felony convictions). Because men are more likely to be arrested, prosecuted, and convicted than women are in the same circumstances, this disproportionately affect's men's current privilege of voting even as it stands. You can see that here, where in 2016 73.7 million women reported voting, compared with 63.8 million men.

(If you want percentages, that's 53.6% of voting population were women, compared with 46.4% men. Actual population split is 51/49, as women receive better healthcare than men and as a result live somewhat longer.
For note, that difference is larger than the actual partisan split.)

It is my opinion it's time to stop suppressing the male vote as a nation, and recognize that this minority is disproportionately impacted by such policies, both de jure and de facto. Men who are citizens should be the absolute guaranteed right to vote, no matter what.

What say ye, NSG?
Last edited by Galloism on Mon May 25, 2020 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Drew Durrnil
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Postby Drew Durrnil » Sun May 24, 2020 5:49 pm

You have a point there. It actually is kind of unfair that women have more voting rights than men in the US. It's almost like the US is feminist in a way.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sun May 24, 2020 5:49 pm

Although OP is making a nice example of a good argument phrased badly, I'm against conscription under all circumstances. So it should be done away with.

I'm also of the opinion that one should be able to vote even if in prison. Everyone who is a citizen of age gets the vote, no exceptions.

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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun May 24, 2020 5:51 pm

Yes, of course.

Once anyone reaches the required minimum age, they should automatically be granted the right to vote. At this point, we should either extend this requirement to women and girls (Reducing right across the board, not ideal), or remove this requirement from men and boys (Increasing rights across the board, ideal).

The volunteer military is sufficient.

---

This system wasn't something I was aware of before I turned 18, so I was actually rather surprised when I realized I did not have the automatic right to vote.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Sun May 24, 2020 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun May 24, 2020 5:52 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:Yes, of course.

Once anyone reaches the required minimum age, they should automatically be granted the right to vote. At this point, we should either extend this requirement to women and girls (Reducing right across the board, not ideal), or remove this requirement from men and boys (Increasing rights across the board, ideal).

The volunteer military is sufficient.

I am of the opinion of removing it entirely or, if not removed, at least don't condition the right to vote on it.

The right to vote should not be conditional for citizens.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sun May 24, 2020 5:53 pm

Galloism wrote:The right to vote should not be conditional for citizens.


I agree. There's just too much room for abuse or gaming the system any other way.

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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun May 24, 2020 5:54 pm

Galloism wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:Yes, of course.

Once anyone reaches the required minimum age, they should automatically be granted the right to vote. At this point, we should either extend this requirement to women and girls (Reducing right across the board, not ideal), or remove this requirement from men and boys (Increasing rights across the board, ideal).

The volunteer military is sufficient.

I am of the opinion of removing it entirely or, if not removed, at least don't condition the right to vote on it.

The right to vote should not be conditional for citizens.

Yeah, that would be the best route to take.
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Native of The East Pacific and Northern California


Stellar Colonies / the Confederation of Human Systems is a confederation which loosely unites a third of the Milky Way galaxy.

The WA embassy within the Confederacy is at Ida Station (243 Ida in the Sol System), a Confederate member state which joined the WA to represent Confederate interests.

Add 3000 years for the date I use.

If you want a mental image of me: Straight, white male of 19. With vision which is far less than 20/20.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.

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Postby Estanglia » Sun May 24, 2020 5:55 pm

I did a double-take at that title.

I'm of the opinion that every adult citizen (with maybe the exception of those in jail, and only as long as they're in jail) should have the right to vote, with no conditions.

Men shouldn't be made to sign up for the selective service system to be able to vote. They should be able to vote regardless.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun May 24, 2020 5:58 pm

Albrenia wrote:Although OP is making a nice example of a good argument phrased badly,

What do you mean?

I'll admit I kind of threw this op together, didn't take the hours I usually take to make an OP, but i didn't think I needed to put oodles or research into it like i usually do.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sun May 24, 2020 6:00 pm

Galloism wrote:
Albrenia wrote:Although OP is making a nice example of a good argument phrased badly,

What do you mean?

I'll admit I kind of threw this op together, didn't take the hours I usually take to make an OP, but i didn't think I needed to put oodles or research into it like i usually do.


I mean "The possibility of Conscription should not be a requirement to vote" is a message that you'll get enormous support for. "Men need to finally be able to vote" is something which comes off, on the face of it, as silly despite in context your argument makes a lot of sense. Men have the right to vote already, you just want to make it more fair and even.

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Solomons Land
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Postby Solomons Land » Sun May 24, 2020 6:02 pm

While I agree that the draft should be abolished, I disagree with the notion in the assertion that men are generally disenfranchised in America. While the draft is sexually discriminatory, it is a very small part of American life. By and large, men and women are treated equally in this country (which is not entirely a good thing.) I would like to see the statistic that shows men are more likely to be prosecuted for crimes in the same circumstances as women. I know there are far more men in jail than women, but men are also far more likely to commit crimes.
Last edited by Solomons Land on Sun May 24, 2020 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun May 24, 2020 6:02 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Galloism wrote:What do you mean?

I'll admit I kind of threw this op together, didn't take the hours I usually take to make an OP, but i didn't think I needed to put oodles or research into it like i usually do.


I mean "The possibility of Conscription should not be a requirement to vote" is a message that you'll get enormous support for. "Men need to finally be able to vote" is something which comes off, on the face of it, as silly despite in context your argument makes a lot of sense. Men have the right to vote already, you just want to make it more fair and even.

Um, they really don't. They get the privilege of voting after they take an action - namely, signing up to die, and a responsibility (reporting if you ever move to the state, for years). Failure to do either one and you lose the right to vote.

These are not suffered by women, who receive the right to vote immediately and without having to sign up to die.

Saying men have the right to vote is as silly as saying you have the right to a paycheck from your job. That's only true if you show up and work, at which point it's not a "right", it's a privilege you get for taking certain actions.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun May 24, 2020 6:05 pm

Solomons Land wrote:While I agree that the draft should be abolished, I disagree with the notion in the assertion that men are generally disenfranchised in America. While the draft is sexually discriminatory, it is a very small part of American life. By and large, men and women are treated equally in this country (which is not entirely a good thing.) I would like to see the statistic that shows men are more likely to be prosecuted for crimes in the same circumstances as women. I know there are far more men in jail than women, but men are also far more likely to commit crimes.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=2144002

This paper assesses gender disparities in federal criminal cases. It finds large gender gaps favoring women throughout the sentence length distribution (averaging over 60%), conditional on arrest offense, criminal history, and other pre-charge observables. Female arrestees are also significantly likelier to avoid charges and convictions entirely, and twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted. Prior studies have reported much smaller sentence gaps because they have ignored the role of charging, plea-bargaining, and sentencing fact-finding in producing sentences. Most studies control for endogenous severity measures that result from these earlier discretionary processes and use samples that have been winnowed by them. I avoid these problems by using a linked dataset tracing cases from arrest through sentencing. Using decomposition methods, I show that most sentence disparity arises from decisions at the earlier stages, and use the rich data to investigate causal theories for these gender gaps.


It's hard to know exactly how much (which is why I didn't throw a percentage), but women are less likely to be arrested for committing crimes, less likely to face charges if they are, less likely to be convicted, less likely to go to prison IF convicted, and if they do, they receive significantly shorter sentences.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sun May 24, 2020 6:05 pm

Galloism wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
I mean "The possibility of Conscription should not be a requirement to vote" is a message that you'll get enormous support for. "Men need to finally be able to vote" is something which comes off, on the face of it, as silly despite in context your argument makes a lot of sense. Men have the right to vote already, you just want to make it more fair and even.

Um, they really don't. They get the privilege of voting after they take an action - namely, signing up to die, and a responsibility (reporting if you ever move to the state, for years). Failure to do either one and you lose the right to vote.

These are not suffered by women, who receive the right to vote immediately and without having to sign up to die.

Saying men have the right to vote is as silly as saying you have the right to a paycheck from your job. That's only true if you show up and work, at which point it's not a "right", it's a privilege you get for taking certain actions.


I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying you phrased it to give the maximum possible resistance in people's minds. A lot of people will see the thread title and immediately come into it looking to disagree, what with the state of gender politics in the US and all.

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Postby Agarntrop » Sun May 24, 2020 6:06 pm

Women should have to sign up too imo.

If it becomes neccesary, the selective service system could be a good deterrent to foreign attackers.
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Postby Galloism » Sun May 24, 2020 6:07 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Galloism wrote:Um, they really don't. They get the privilege of voting after they take an action - namely, signing up to die, and a responsibility (reporting if you ever move to the state, for years). Failure to do either one and you lose the right to vote.

These are not suffered by women, who receive the right to vote immediately and without having to sign up to die.

Saying men have the right to vote is as silly as saying you have the right to a paycheck from your job. That's only true if you show up and work, at which point it's not a "right", it's a privilege you get for taking certain actions.


I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying you phrased it to give the maximum possible resistance in people's minds. A lot of people will see the thread title and immediately come into it looking to disagree, what with the state of gender politics in the US and all.

Seems to be going ok so far.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sun May 24, 2020 6:07 pm

Agarntrop wrote:Women should have to sign up too imo.

If it becomes neccesary, the selective service system could be a good deterrent to foreign attackers.

It still shouldn't be a limiting factor on whether or not someone can vote.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sun May 24, 2020 6:09 pm

Galloism wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying you phrased it to give the maximum possible resistance in people's minds. A lot of people will see the thread title and immediately come into it looking to disagree, what with the state of gender politics in the US and all.

Seems to be going ok so far.


Indeed.

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Kathol Rift
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Postby Kathol Rift » Sun May 24, 2020 6:12 pm

I did a double take at the title, but after reading the OP, it’s actually got a good point. I personally have no problems signing up for selective service, but I know a lot of people that wouldn’t want to. Their right to vote shouldn’t be dependent on that.
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Postby Agarntrop » Sun May 24, 2020 6:19 pm

Heloin wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:Women should have to sign up too imo.

If it becomes neccesary, the selective service system could be a good deterrent to foreign attackers.

It still shouldn't be a limiting factor on whether or not someone can vote.

It's a way to enforce the law.

It gives people the compulsion to sign up.
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Sun May 24, 2020 6:24 pm

Yes.

Make women register for Selective Service while you're at it.
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Postby ArenaC » Sun May 24, 2020 6:24 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
Heloin wrote:It still shouldn't be a limiting factor on whether or not someone can vote.

It's a way to enforce the law.

It gives people the compulsion to sign up.

Men right now are basically forced into military service in US, they’re just not ever active for the most part.
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Postby -Ebola- » Sun May 24, 2020 6:27 pm

"Is time for Men to get the right to vote?"

Cut the drama, dude.

They should get rid of selective service, but it's fucking insulting comparing that with historical systems where some people were genuinely unable to vote.

This is like those white people who think they're oppressed because one guy called them racist.
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Postby Agarntrop » Sun May 24, 2020 6:28 pm

ArenaC wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:It's a way to enforce the law.

It gives people the compulsion to sign up.

Men right now are basically forced into military service in US, they’re just not ever active for the most part.

It should be the same for women.

I don't support peacetime active conscription, but America should keep the selective service system as it, as I said, could be a good deterrent to foreign attackers in an emergency scenario
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun May 24, 2020 6:31 pm

-Ebola- wrote:"Is time for Men to get the right to vote?"

Cut the drama, dude.

They should get rid of selective service, but it's fucking insulting comparing that with historical systems where some people were genuinely unable to vote.

This is like those white people who think they're oppressed because one guy called them racist.

I mean, men don't have the right to vote. They have to earn the privilege.

Just like women could get the privilege by owning land and having 50 english pounds in new jersey shortly after the United States became a separate country, they only had the privilege of voting if they met certain criteria. The right was not given freely.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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