[DRAFT] Transgender Rights Act

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Can you define "biological male" for me?.

OOC: Somone who has male biological features: an Y chromosome, balance of testosterone and estrogen, the reproductive system, the type of gonad, and external genitalia.

Is a male with low testosterone not biologically male? Is a male with two X chromosomes (i.e. XXY) not biologically male? What if this person has typical female brain stucture and function? (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112351.htm)

[Pope Saint Peter the Apostle]

OOC: Somone who has male biological features: an Y chromosome, balance of testosterone and estrogen, the reproductive system, the type of gonad, and external genitalia.

Is a male with low testosterone not biologically male? Is a male with two X chromosomes (i.e. XXY) not biologically male? What if this person has typical female brain stucture and function? (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112351.htm)

OOC: Someome with Klinefelter syndrome has an Y chromosome and so that wouldn't make him "not biologically male". It is possible that people share sex factors from both sexes, in which case the term "intersex" is used.

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Is a male with low testosterone not biologically male? Is a male with two X chromosomes (i.e. XXY) not biologically male? What if this person has typical female brain stucture and function? (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112351.htm)

OOC: Someome with Klinefelter syndrome has an Y chromosome and so that wouldn't make him "not biologically male". It is possible that people share sex factors from both sexes, in which case the term "intersex" is used.

Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome also have a Y chromosome. Are they biologically male?

[Pope Saint Peter the Apostle]

OOC: Someome with Klinefelter syndrome has an Y chromosome and so that wouldn't make him "not biologically male". It is possible that people share sex factors from both sexes, in which case the term "intersex" is used.

Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome also have a Y chromosome. Are they biologically male?

OOC: Let's look at what I actually said:

Can you define "biological male" for me?.

OOC: Somone who has male biological features: an Y chromosome, balance of testosterone and estrogen, the reproductive system, the type of gonad, and external genitalia.

Note that I never said that everyone with an Y chromosome is biologically male, instead, I listed it as one of several male biological features. Later, I also noted that someone with Klinefelter syndrome is not "not biologically male" per se, because he has an Y chromosome. So the suggestion that everyone with an Y chromosome is biologically male did not come from me.

Then, let's address the question of complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS). Someone affected by CAIS has an Y chromosome, but has female external genitalia. CAIS is also associated with high levels of testosterone, and a lack of an uterus. Now, as I noted before, if "people share sex factors from both sexes", we use the term "intersex". It, then, isn't suprising, that androgen insensitivity syndrome (including CAIS) is an intersex disorder (https://doi.org/10.1348/135910704322778740).

[Araraukar]

OOC: ...could y'all take the NSG debate into NSG please? Unless you're going to address that stuff in the draft (which is unlikely given it's unnecessary and besides the point), it's tangential at best, but definitely in the threadjacking territory.

As for the sports thing, it doesn't need to be addressed any more than who goes to a gynecologist and who to an urologist and based on what features, as it's not the point of the thing. Sports being segregated by genitalia in RL is stupid - it should be segregated by your actual ability instead - but East Germany female athletes (who were forcefed androgens and steroids) do count as an example of just such abuse, way back when, so it's not entirely irrelevant on that topic.

It is irrelevant to the draft, still.

[Nevertopia]

1. Defines "transgender" as an umbrella term referring to those with a gender identity that differs from their sex assigned at birth. This encompasses the following people:

a) transgender women;
b) transgender men;
c) gender non-binary people;
d) agender people;
e) any personal gender identity that does not match those above.

Wouldn't it be more clear to refer to it as "sex determined at birth" instead of "sex assigned at birth"? It sounds like biological sex is a choice instead of a trait.

On item e), how do you recognize or define a personal gender identity that doesn't match the above?

How does the law address someone who's gender fluid that changes from these different identifications sporadically?

Lastly in terms of legal identification, how do you refer to someone who is biologically male but gendered female,vice-versa,etc?

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome also have a Y chromosome. Are they biologically male?

OOC: Let's look at what I actually said:

OOC: Somone who has male biological features: an Y chromosome, balance of testosterone and estrogen, the reproductive system, the type of gonad, and external genitalia.

Note that I never said that everyone with an Y chromosome is biologically male, instead, I listed it as one of several male biological features. Later, I also noted that someone with Klinefelter syndrome is not "not biologically male" per se, because he has an Y chromosome. So the suggestion that everyone with an Y chromosome is biologically male did not come from me.

Then, let's address the question of complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS). Someone affected by CAIS has an Y chromosome, but has female external genitalia. CAIS is also associated with high levels of testosterone, and a lack of an uterus. Now, as I noted before, if "people share sex factors from both sexes", we use the term "intersex". It, then, isn't suprising, that androgen insensitivity syndrome (including CAIS) is an intersex disorder (https://doi.org/10.1348/135910704322778740).

Okay, but most people with CAIS are assigned female at birth and usually go undiagnosed until puberty. Hence, for a good chunk of their life they're "biologically female", right?

I'm not going to continue this discussion because, again, I'm not including anything related to athletics in the draft, but my point is that biology isn't black and white. There's a whole lot of gray.

1. Defines "transgender" as an umbrella term referring to those with a gender identity that differs from their sex assigned at birth. This encompasses the following people:

a) transgender women;
b) transgender men;
c) gender non-binary people;
d) agender people;
e) any personal gender identity that does not match those above.

Wouldn't it be more clear to refer to it as "sex determined at birth" instead of "sex assigned at birth"? It sounds like biological sex is a choice instead of a trait.

The correct wording is "sex assigned at birth", because (as the example I gave above demonstrates), it's not always "determined" correctly, and not everyone fits neatly into one of two boxes.

On item e), how do you recognize or define a personal gender identity that doesn't match the above?

For the purposes of the draft, they're recognised as transgender and are entitled to the protections and services it mandates.

How does the law address someone who's gender fluid that changes from these different identifications sporadically?

Lastly in terms of legal identification, how do you refer to someone who is biologically male but gendered female,vice-versa,etc?

As above, they're recognised as transgender, and may legally identify as they so choose - "male", "female" or "other" (or any other additional genders that individual nations may want to recognise).

[Vagineer Supreme]

vagineer supreme unapproved

[DACOROMANIA]

Transgender are not really the Third Gender which in fact was stolen from the rarest Hermaphrodites (half-male, half-female). When about this the Transgender people are the most racist against Hermaphrodites.

Quoting a transgender "shemale": "What? hermaphrodites? even if they may exist they shall have no right, they don't deserve to live but only tranny ones". And this is not a singular case but often many of them believes same. You can find these opinions everywhere on internet, even in chat servers.

Everywhere there is no mention of Hermaphrodites on the Third Gender. Isn't this discrimination? And coming from certain Trans-people.

So fix this issue somehow. Or shall we let this Anti-Hermaphrodite racism continue?

"Transgender Rights Act" might fit better within a "Third-Gender Rights Act" to include all rights and duties, especially when about Hermaphrodites Rights.

[Ardiveds]

Transgender are not really the Third Gender which in fact was stolen from the rarest Hermaphrodites (half-male, half-female). When about this the Transgender people are the most racist against Hermaphrodites.

Quoting a transgender "shemale": "What? hermaphrodites? even if they may exist they shall have no right, they don't deserve to live but only tranny ones". And this is not a singular case but often many of them believes same. You can find these opinions everywhere on internet, even in chat servers.

Everywhere there is no mention of Hermaphrodites on the Third Gender. Isn't this discrimination? And coming from certain Trans-people.

So fix this issue somehow. Or shall we let this Anti-Hermaphrodite racism continue?

"Transgender Rights Act" might fit better within a "Third-Gender Rights Act" to include all rights and duties, especially when about Hermaphrodites Rights.

OOC: All groups of people have bigoted and racist individuals and internet chat rooms are often echo chambers where the rotten freely exchange their rot, hardly proves 'most trans people are racist against intersex people', while trans genders themselves aren't exactly freely accepted by cis genders either.
And a proposal about trans rights does not block a potential future proposal on intersex rights.

[Araraukar]

Quoting a transgender "shemale": "What? hermaphrodites? even if they may exist they shall have no right, they don't deserve to live but only tranny ones".

OOC: Smells like flamebait...

But intersex people are actually already covered by WA legislation, so you're not in danger of getting discriminated against.

[Interstellar Tauri Union]

"the taurian commission fully supports this proposition as it aligns with our policy of free choice in appearance and status. however we effectively took sex/gender out of the law completely so its merely a personal choice now. especially since there is almost no sexual dimorphism in native taurian biology."

[Araraukar]

OOC: Notes as asked for. The clarifications in preamble should be active clauses ("clarifies" instead of "clarifying") and have the power of a mandate, instead of nonbinding preamble clauses. The explicityly clarifying thing is a bit off - I get that you're trying to say the nation can't dictate your gender, but it sounds wrong way round, it should be that gender is an emergent quality from the psyche of the individual, not something that can be dictated by society. The state can make you "pick one" from bureaucratic categories, still, but they can't mandate which you pick.

The assorting bit then sounds even more off, as "chosen gender". It's not a choice. Unless we're talking about "pick one from these bureaucratic categories".

"Medical intervention" sounds bad, actions done to someone without their consent. "Medical support" would be more apt.

The list in the definition is unnecessary and restricting. I could list more things it would need to include to be all-inclusive, but it doesn't need to include any, "differs from their sex assigned at birth" is enough.

Clause 3 should include words "at minimum", because you'd be banning, for example, hjira, which is a specific legal third gender identity in RL India. They are not "other", they are hjira. Or any other gender identities a nation might have in its legally recognizable genders.

Clause 4 ending should be change to "transition, also medically", because transitioning is not just medical (or legal).

Clause 5... All definitions should be at the start of the active clauses. You're making the same mistake as with clause 1; don't make lists that are unnecessary and restricting. (Random aside, I find it weird you have "androgen blocker" instead of "testosterone blocker" but then you have "estrogen blocker" instead of allowing blockers for all female-specific hormones, like progesterone, which is my personal nemesis because of its activity to do with periods.) So rather than trying to list everything under the sun, try to think of words that cover everything you want to cover, and use those words instead.

Clauses 5 and 6 have already been addressed by another resolution, they're not really necessary in general. Clause 6 should additionally have "with medical transitioning" or something like that, not physical, and hormone therapy as requirement for surgeries exists in places in RL, so you might want to consider whether you want to keep that in place anyway.

Clause 7, again, like with clauses 1 and 5, bad list and definition should be at the start. Also, the intervention again sounds wrong. Support is better. You make it sound like people were being cut into without their permission. Also, removing a womb or ovaries does not directly alter one's physical appearance so the main clause does not match the list contents anyway. And voice is not strictly speaking physical appearance either.

Clause 8 makes no mention of affordability. See trans issues in RL USA because of for-profit healthcare system. And "intervention" is again bad word to use.

Clause 9, what "resources"? The latter part starting from "with these resources" should be left out anyway.

Clause 10 does not fix the affordability issue. I have access to all kinds of things, but if I can't afford them, I won't be able to have them. Though, what does the "legal status" refer to? Sounds strange.

Clause 11 "intervention" is still the wrong word.

Clause 12 seems to be fine with requiring hormonal treatments to be able to change gender, as is the case in RL in some places. Think if you really want to keep that in effect. And once more "intervention" needs another word instead.

[ShrewLlamaLand]

-snip-

Thank you so much for the feedback! This is an older draft I put on hold due to NS gameplay drama at the time, so it definitely needs a bit of updating. I agree with the vast majority of your feedback - changing a lot now and will address a few things below:

Added a new preamble explaining the purpose of this resolution and acknowleding GA#571; much of the existing preamble moved to active clauses.

Addressed some of the issues with wording, e.g. "chosen gender", and agree that "intervention" doesn't quite give off the right connotation. I'm not a huge fan of "support" though, I think "assistance" works best and have used this throughout the updated draft.

Removed the restrictive lists throughout the draft.

Moved all definitions to the start of the draft, added "transition".

Clauses 5 and 6 removed (and again, GA#571 acknowledged in preamble).

Not really sure how to address affordability, surgery is expensive even "at cost" as per GA#571, and making all transgender-related surgery free would make this difficult to pass imho (plus we'd get to hear right-leaning nations cry about "cosmetic surgery" or make other equally garbage claims). Will have a think.

Changed wording from "surgical" to "medical" to forbid nations requiring hormonal treatments in order to access legal changes.

The "legal status" was intended to mean "as punishment for a crime", have made this more clear.

Will update the OP with the latest draft shortly.