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[Draft] On Plural Unions

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Aeravahn Reborn
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[Draft] On Plural Unions

Postby Aeravahn Reborn » Tue May 05, 2020 2:21 am

On Plural Unions
Category: Civil Rights || Strength: Significant

Directive:
"To know that we are not alone."
Contributions of:
Cirixiat, Representative-Major,
Thesaan, Bound of Cyranthes.


The World Assembly,

Recognizing standing efforts by the World Assembly to support international civil rights,

Applauding the World Assembly's commitment to ensuring recognition of civil unions and marriage internationally,

Dismayed by an unfortunate oversight in standing legislation,

Hereby:

Mandates that all Member-States which recognize civil marriage or unions allow groups in excess of two individuals to enter into such.


OOC:
Totally not a personally-motivated drafting effort. Promise.
Last edited by Aeravahn Reborn on Tue May 05, 2020 2:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue May 05, 2020 3:27 am

"Opposed. There are myriad practical reasons for limiting marriage to two individuals that have nothing whatsoever to do with the morality of the act."

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue May 05, 2020 3:27 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Opposed. There are myriad practical reasons for limiting marriage to two individuals that have nothing whatsoever to do with the morality of the act."

EMW: We concur.

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Aeravahn Reborn
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Postby Aeravahn Reborn » Tue May 05, 2020 3:40 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Opposed. There are myriad practical reasons for limiting marriage to two individuals that have nothing whatsoever to do with the morality of the act."

EMW: We concur.


"One would imagine," said Cirixiat, with the resigned tone of one who should not have expected better, "That either of you would wish to establish these reasons? To simply gesture to something's existence with no mention of its nature is poor argument."
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue May 05, 2020 3:57 am

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:EMW: We concur.


"One would imagine," said Cirixiat, with the resigned tone of one who should not have expected better, "That either of you would wish to establish these reasons? To simply gesture to something's existence with no mention of its nature is poor argument."


"Difficulty parsing benefits, for one. Which spouse has end of life decision power? Custody of a child? Visitation? Who pays alimony? How do you determine prima facie parentage? Inheritance becomes a nightmare when passing intestate if the spousal share is tripled or more. To the extent tax breaks or relief is offered, how does one determine good faith in seeking them? Do extant spouses have the power to veto future spouses? Is the marriage dissolved and reformed with every addition or subtraction? If so, how does that affect the aforementioned rights?

"To be clear, the World Assembly needn't ban polygamy or bigamy. But it need not mandate it, as doing so would require a fundamental shift in underlying policies inherent to the family unit. We might support decriminalizing polygamy, insofar as that hasn't already been done, but not a mandated legalization."

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Desmosthenes and Burke
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Postby Desmosthenes and Burke » Tue May 05, 2020 7:23 am

Same comment as given to the opposite draft:

There is no sound reason for this body to further meddle in matters that are best left to the sound discretion of member states to regulate according to the traditions and mores of their societies.
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Tue May 05, 2020 3:52 pm

Opposed.

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Postby Christian Democrats » Tue May 05, 2020 7:11 pm

Against. National governments ought not to encourage immorality.
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Charax
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Postby Charax » Tue May 05, 2020 7:36 pm

Opposed. After a certain point, you’ve diluted the institution so much that it is functionally meaningless. Travel down that road yourself if you must, but don’t drag us along behind you.
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Disembodied Voice
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Postby Disembodied Voice » Tue May 05, 2020 10:36 pm

A quiet voice, seemingly coming out of nowhere, speaks behind Cirixiat's left ear. "Isn't it a bit odd for you to be addressing this subject, given that Velrahn do not have marriages of any kind?"
Last edited by Disembodied Voice on Tue May 05, 2020 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The New Bluestocking Homeland
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Postby The New Bluestocking Homeland » Wed May 06, 2020 3:30 am

"There are too many legal and economical difficulties, already raised by the representative of Separatist Peoples, that are best left to individual nations.

"In addition, it concerns this delegation that mandating plural marriage as a civil right across the WA could cause difficulties for nations wishing to protect young adults against coercion to enter a plural marriage under the guise of religious or cultural custom. We do not mean a forced marriage (as covered by #160), but rather parental/social pressure to enter a plural marriage -- as opposed to a monogamous marriage or other relationship -- when that is not what their heart truly desires.

"We are also concerned that this legislation is heavy-handed and over-reaching in its over-turning of local customs in societies that are monogamous, especially as we are cognisant that not all populations in the WA are human (and some WA nations' non-human populations may exhibit strictly monogamous behaviours, especially among some bird populations).

"This delegation is opposed."
Last edited by The New Bluestocking Homeland on Wed May 06, 2020 3:37 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Aeravahn Reborn
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Postby Aeravahn Reborn » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:26 pm

OOC:
It's back! And let's not pretend paperwork is a good excuse to deny people their rights this time, shall we?
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:31 pm

“Although I acknowledge that there are administrative difficulties in processing plural unions, this seems to be an unobjectionable act from my perspective. The Kenmorian legal system has recently been restructured so as to be compatible with polygamous relationships, following some new legislation, so there are no issues as far as I am concerned. However, I do recognise that other nations will have serious difficulties.”

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:OOC:
It's back! And let's not pretend paperwork is a good excuse to deny people their rights this time, shall we?

(OOC: Serious difficulties in how a legal system would process polygamous relationships, especially where dependents are involved, aren’t trivial.)
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Middle Barael
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Postby Middle Barael » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:32 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Opposed. There are myriad practical reasons for limiting marriage to two individuals that have nothing whatsoever to do with the morality of the act."

EMW: We concur.

As do we. As much as most Baraelim oppose it on a moral scale, our government wishes not to weigh in on this matter. However, from a purely practical and logistical standpoint, we believe that this would be problematic, and it may also restrict the rights of nations which are opposed to polygamy as well. Our government officially will hold this standpoint: if a nation wishes to legalize polygamy, then we will not protest, but they should not impose their will on other WA member states.
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:57 pm

Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: Serious difficulties in how a legal system would process polygamous relationships, especially where dependents are involved, aren’t trivial.)


OOC:
And mysteriously none of you seem particularly interested in solutions, rather, simply declaring it too hard and being done with it.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:00 pm

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:OOC:
It's back! And let's not pretend paperwork is a good excuse to deny people their rights this time, shall we?

"Paperwork? No. Genuine legal issues? Absolutely a valid concern."

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:02 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: Serious difficulties in how a legal system would process polygamous relationships, especially where dependents are involved, aren’t trivial.)


OOC:
And mysteriously none of you seem particularly interested in solutions, rather, simply declaring it too hard and being done with it.

OOC: The only solution to a great deal of these problems is to modify business entity law to accommodate family concerns. The result being an invitation of the state into the family abode to a degree that most persons would find extremely concerning.

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Ardiveds
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Postby Ardiveds » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:09 pm

"Opposed. Ambassador, Ardiveds doesn't punish plural marriages as long as all the parties consent to it and are aware of each other but that doesn't mean the government wants to get involved in that bureaucratic nightmare. Here, legal marriages have always been between two individuals and we wish to keep it that way."

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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:38 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Paperwork? No. Genuine legal issues? Absolutely a valid concern."


OOC:
That post was OOC; I've never marked them unclearly.

Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: The only solution to a great deal of these problems is to modify business entity law to accommodate family concerns. The result being an invitation of the state into the family abode to a degree that most persons would find extremely concerning.


That's utter nonsense. Genuinely that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard and I cannot possibly imagine how you came to it.
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Aeravahn Reborn
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Postby Aeravahn Reborn » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:40 pm

Ardiveds wrote:"Opposed. Ambassador, Ardiveds doesn't punish plural marriages as long as all the parties consent to it and are aware of each other but that doesn't mean the government wants to get involved in that bureaucratic nightmare. Here, legal marriages have always been between two individuals and we wish to keep it that way."


"And you don't see anything wrong, legally or morally, with the idea that only a single partner in a relationship may have any rights whatsoever?"
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Ardiveds
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Postby Ardiveds » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:54 pm

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:
Ardiveds wrote:"Opposed. Ambassador, Ardiveds doesn't punish plural marriages as long as all the parties consent to it and are aware of each other but that doesn't mean the government wants to get involved in that bureaucratic nightmare. Here, legal marriages have always been between two individuals and we wish to keep it that way."


"And you don't see anything wrong, legally or morally, with the idea that only a single partner in a relationship may have any rights whatsoever?"

"When did we say that? Both partners have their legal rights secure. Now if you're talking about those other partners beside the two of them who married, well they entered the relationship knowing the caveats. Our courts are already clogged with petulent couples applying for divorce, we don't want to clog it up further. If we're being honest, we'd rather just get rid of legal marriage altogether if we could."
Last edited by Ardiveds on Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:41 am

Tinfect wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Paperwork? No. Genuine legal issues? Absolutely a valid concern."


OOC:
That post was OOC; I've never marked them unclearly.

Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: The only solution to a great deal of these problems is to modify business entity law to accommodate family concerns. The result being an invitation of the state into the family abode to a degree that most persons would find extremely concerning.


That's utter nonsense. Genuinely that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard and I cannot possibly imagine how you came to it.

Ooc: I haven't. Legal scholars have, beause a plural union looks a whole lot like a General Partnership. A group of people intending to come together for a particular purpose as coequals. Utah in particular has a surprising amount of proposed codification on the topic, much of which I read as research the last time this came up here.

In my experience, those who firm a GP end up bound by rules they were unaware of, causing endless issues with regulation. Mostly they default to Majority Rules, but not always. The result is government intrusion into your business model when things go pear-shaped.

Applying it to marriage invites as much or more, given the much more personal nature of marriage as opposed to business.

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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:44 am

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:
Ardiveds wrote:"Opposed. Ambassador, Ardiveds doesn't punish plural marriages as long as all the parties consent to it and are aware of each other but that doesn't mean the government wants to get involved in that bureaucratic nightmare. Here, legal marriages have always been between two individuals and we wish to keep it that way."


"And you don't see anything wrong, legally or morally, with the idea that only a single partner in a relationship may have any rights whatsoever?"

"No, I do not see anything wrong with this, legally or morally. Marriage has been decreed by God as between a man and a woman, as that is the best environment for raising children; however, marriage in Germany is legal between any two adults as the government believes in equal rights for homosexuals and bisexuals. What the government here does not believe in is the complete perversion of the institution of marriage that results from polygamy."
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:55 am

Marxist Germany wrote:
Aeravahn Reborn wrote:
"And you don't see anything wrong, legally or morally, with the idea that only a single partner in a relationship may have any rights whatsoever?"

"No, I do not see anything wrong with this, legally or morally. Marriage has been decreed by God as between a man and a woman, as that is the best environment for raising children; however, marriage in Germany is legal between any two adults as the government believes in equal rights for homosexuals and bisexuals. What the government here does not believe in is the complete perversion of the institution of marriage that results from polygamy."


"I withdraw my vociferous resistance. Any appeal to a god in the context of marriage is a position on which I have no desire to spend energy defending."

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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:06 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Marxist Germany wrote:"No, I do not see anything wrong with this, legally or morally. Marriage has been decreed by God as between a man and a woman, as that is the best environment for raising children; however, marriage in Germany is legal between any two adults as the government believes in equal rights for homosexuals and bisexuals. What the government here does not believe in is the complete perversion of the institution of marriage that results from polygamy."


"I withdraw my vociferous resistance. Any appeal to a god in the context of marriage is a position on which I have no desire to spend energy defending."

"Your opposition to this proposal is contingent on what other ambassadors' opinions are? That does not sound like a sincere position to hold."
Last edited by Marxist Germany on Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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