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Suggestion - Commemorative Cards

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Sedgistan
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Suggestion - Commemorative Cards

Postby Sedgistan » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:32 am

I'll preface this by saying I've only dipped my toes into the Cards market, so this suggestion is more of a concept than a detailed specification; however, it was well-received on the Cards Discord server so I thought it worth going ahead with a thread.

The concept is to issue "special edition" Cards for certain NationStates events, outside of the regular Cards Seasons. These would be available only for a limited time around that event, with no further ones issued later on. Their visuals would be distinct from the regular Season cards, ideally reflecting the event they were issued for.

A good example would be the recent Secretary-General election - there could be commemorative cards for the candidates that got through to the final General Election round, and potentially their running mates too.

Another would be the regular Z-Day and N-Day events, potentially for those nations with most survivors/irradiated/zombies etc. Zombie event cards could have blood splatters on, N-Day ones the nuclear radiation symbol, and rather than "Season 2" would say "Z-Day 2020" or similar.

I'm not sure what the best way to limit availability would be - possibly the simplest would be that they can be drawn in regular packs but only for ~1 week afterwards, and cannot be drawn at all after that. They can still be sold or gifted. Potentially they wouldnd't be Junkable, and rather than having the usual rarity values like Uncommon/Epic would just be "Commemorative" or "Limited Edition".

There are alternate mechanisms that could exist for issuing them, e.g. anyone who voted for Kuriko in the Sec-Gen election automatically gets one. I'm not sure what the equivalent would be for Zombie/Nuke events.

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Morover
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Postby Morover » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:51 am

Full support. It seems like such an obvious idea in hindsight, that I can't believe that I hadn't thought of it before.

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Postby Zeritae » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 pm

Full support. Maybe we could have cards for two nations in one, like two opposed nations
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Postby Valentine Z » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:59 pm

I'm in full support for this! N-Day, Z-Day, Gen Sec, whatever else... I think there are always nations that shine on these limited-time events! :P



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Postby Zeritae » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:00 pm

Valentine Z wrote:I'm in full support for this! N-Day, Z-Day, Gen Sec, whatever else... I think there are always nations that shine on these limited-time events! :P

Maybe some region cards! I know a The Secret Order card would sell well
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Postby Valentine Z » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:02 pm

Zeritae wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:I'm in full support for this! N-Day, Z-Day, Gen Sec, whatever else... I think there are always nations that shine on these limited-time events! :P

Maybe some region cards! I know a The Secret Order card would sell well

Ohh definitely. ^^ Depending on the event as well!

For Z-Day - Region cards.
For N-Day - Faction cards... and perhaps Region cards as well! ^^



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Postby Destructive Government Economic System » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:09 pm

I do believe that there are many specialized/deliberately limited edition cards in real-life. Introducing this same concept to NationStates Cards sounds like an ideal method to draw more people into the trading sphere (and therefore, the game).

Great idea for the admins to (at least) consider.
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Postby Valentine Z » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:15 pm

On a side note, I wonder if this will work on the rules of limited-edition packs, ones that either promise to give ONLY the limited-edition cards, or ones that has a heightened chance of giving you the limited-edition card without downright giving it to you.

Can be seen in games like Overwatch, Rainbow Six, among many, many others. Limited-time lootboxes that has a mix of items like the latter (just a good chance of giving you limited-edition cards).

-----

Either way, I am not speculating and expecting too much yet. Just the idea alone is already great enough for me! ♥



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Dabarastan
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Postby Dabarastan » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:12 am

Great idea, there's nothing I can really add other than my support.

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Postby Unibot III » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:49 am

What if doing things in-game could earn you a shot at obtaining special cards from an easter egg loot box? Like, the admins hid “accomplishments” as easter eggs to be unlocked.

A special card might be, for instance, Maxtopia. Or [Violet]. Dredd. Mantle. Francos Spain. Cards for every GCR (including Warzones.)

The mechanics that unlocked the cards would remain a mystery for players. But once players started to earn them, the cards would be highly valued in circulation and players would desperately try to figure what combination of actions was resulting in a lootbox.
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Postby Aclion » Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:32 am

Sounds a lot like Rares in Runescape. A one time release of a tradeable item intended to be a fun way to commemorate something. Unfortunatly the effect on rares in RS has not been nice. "While seemingly innocuous, these rares are damaging Runescape’s already fragmented and fragile community." I expect it would have a similar result, though on a much smaller scale on Nationstates. Since no new cards are released the supply would steadily decrease as collectors leave. Demand on the other hand would increase as new collectors come in. This means the price would steadily, and reliably rise an over time their role as a commemorative item will be superseded by their role as an investment. This would have effects on the wider card game, and I'd expect the wider NS community, as farming in order to buy these cards inflates their price in a vicious cycle, and players look to means outside the card game to acquire them.

If you are going to release commemorative cards learn from RS's mistake, and make them untradable, released to those players who qualified for them in the event you are commemorating.
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:13 am

I agree with the concept, less so the execution. My issue with cards for Z or N Day is that Zombie ones would essentially be linked to population (or a gigantic tie), and N Day ones would similarly end up as gigantic ties, ruining what I assume is an intention for a limited number of these (not a whole season).
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Postby Zeritae » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:15 am

Lord Dominator wrote:I agree with the concept, less so the execution. My issue with cards for Z or N Day is that Zombie ones would essentially be linked to population (or a gigantic tie), and N Day ones would similarly end up as gigantic ties, ruining what I assume is an intention for a limited number of these (not a whole season).

So perhaps for regions or for RMB Posts?
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One already exists: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=484632&start=25

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Postby Praeceps » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:44 am

Aclion wrote:Sounds a lot like Rares in Runescape. A one time release of a tradeable item intended to be a fun way to commemorate something. Unfortunatly the effect on rares in RS has not been nice. "While seemingly innocuous, these rares are damaging Runescape’s already fragmented and fragile community." I expect it would have a similar result, though on a much smaller scale on Nationstates. Since no new cards are released the supply would steadily decrease as collectors leave. Demand on the other hand would increase as new collectors come in. This means the price would steadily, and reliably rise an over time their role as a commemorative item will be superseded by their role as an investment. This would have effects on the wider card game, and I'd expect the wider NS community, as farming in order to buy these cards inflates their price in a vicious cycle, and players look to means outside the card game to acquire them.

If you are going to release commemorative cards learn from RS's mistake, and make them untradable, released to those players who qualified for them in the event you are commemorating.

Alternatively, you do not have a time-limited supply. If these cards are rare enough (as in difficulty to obtain, not rarity), these cards could be used by massive card farmers to transfer bank without the usual anti-laundering system making it more risky.

This would further help out massive card farmers whereas casual players, small and mid-sized card farmers would not benefit. While I like the idea, I fear the repercussions on the market.
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Strike
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Postby Strike » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:56 am

Depends how you implement it.

For the recently completed event, you could make a total of 8 commemorative cards (1 each for the Candidate & Running Mates of the final round)

Then you simply give the cards for free to each nation that voted for those nations. So anyone who voted Kuriko would get a Kuriko card and a Salaxalands card. Same for the other 3 candidates.

Inherently this means that

1) While they are commemorative, there are more of these than a regular legendary card, mimimizing their theoretical trade value - but as they are limited edition there won't otherwise be a way to get them
2) No benefit to card farmers, as by definition no user could get more than 2 cards - as only WA members could vote.

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Postby Praeceps » Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:36 pm

Strike wrote:Depends how you implement it.

For the recently completed event, you could make a total of 8 commemorative cards (1 each for the Candidate & Running Mates of the final round)

Then you simply give the cards for free to each nation that voted for those nations. So anyone who voted Kuriko would get a Kuriko card and a Salaxalands card. Same for the other 3 candidates.

Inherently this means that

1) While they are commemorative, there are more of these than a regular legendary card, mimimizing their theoretical trade value - but as they are limited edition there won't otherwise be a way to get them
2) No benefit to card farmers, as by definition no user could get more than 2 cards - as only WA members could vote.

Unfortunately, you are wrong on both points. On the first point, it matters less the number of owners per card but the total amount of cards for that category. There were a total of 3,544 WA votes in the final round. That's 7,088 cards that will be distributed (presumably some of those will go to nations that will CTE soon or don't trade at all thus depressing the number of cards that are in "circulation"). The best season of legendaries to compare this to the total amount of Season 1 legendaries. While this isn't ideal (the rate of finding legendaries was greater than S2 and there are more legendaries in S1 than S2), the season has finished so it is the best for getting the total amount of legendaries we can expect to be in circulation for a season. There are about 180 legendaries, the number of copies can range widely depending on the legendary. While some may only have a couple dozen due to the nation CTEing, there are also legendaries with over a hundred owners. For the purpose of comparison, even if we lowball by saying there are 50 copies of each season 1 legendary on average, that gives us a total of 9,000 legendaries which is more total than you mentioned.

As such you could expect prices for these commemorative cards to be higher than legendaries on average.

As to your second point, card farmers would be able to get multiple of these cards by buying them at the market.
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Postby Noahs Second Country » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:24 pm

Praeceps wrote:Unfortunately, you are wrong on both points. On the first point, it matters less the number of owners per card but the total amount of cards for that category. There were a total of 3,544 WA votes in the final round. That's 7,088 cards that will be distributed (presumably some of those will go to nations that will CTE soon or don't trade at all thus depressing the number of cards that are in "circulation"). The best season of legendaries to compare this to the total amount of Season 1 legendaries. While this isn't ideal (the rate of finding legendaries was greater than S2 and there are more legendaries in S1 than S2), the season has finished so it is the best for getting the total amount of legendaries we can expect to be in circulation for a season. There are about 180 legendaries, the number of copies can range widely depending on the legendary. While some may only have a couple dozen due to the nation CTEing, there are also legendaries with over a hundred owners. For the purpose of comparison, even if we lowball by saying there are 50 copies of each season 1 legendary on average, that gives us a total of 9,000 legendaries which is more total than you mentioned.

As such you could expect prices for these commemorative cards to be higher than legendaries on average.

As to your second point, card farmers would be able to get multiple of these cards by buying them at the market.

At one point there were 30000 legendary cards, and currently there are 27000 S1 legendary cards... so quite a few more than calculated (around 150 copies of each legendary on average). While this may seem to support your point, it is important to consider that in the above implementation, there are 7000 copies spread across 8 cards - an average of 875 copies of each card. So the supply of these cards would be much greater than any single legendary, meaning that prices may rise over time, but nowhere near even the cheapest legendary. Furthermore, legendary cards gain value since they are found slowly over time, while 875 simultaneous copies handed out would result in way more supply than demand.

I guess that large card farmers may have the advantage of being able to buy many more copies but that's simply how the market works and it would be a considerably long term investment at best.
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Strike
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Postby Strike » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:35 pm

Praeceps wrote:
Strike wrote:As such you could expect prices for these commemorative cards to be higher than legendaries on average.


Respectfully disagree in whole. These cards could be among the least valuable in the game monetarily. There are no cards that currently exist in game with more than 250 copies. We are talking about a card that will have 3500+ copies.

To suggest it will somehow be worth more than one of 23 Testlandia or even one of 50 Starblaydia cards is simply ridiculous. These cards would be a dime a dozen - strictly commemorative but saleable if desired.

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Postby Praeceps » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:16 pm

I took into consideration also that not everyone who receives one of these cards would be interested in them. We all know of someone who wants a particular card but the owners of the card don't seem to be interested in cards anymore/will not respond to telegrams. So a fair amount of those cards won't be entering into circulation. Additionally, presumably some of these owners will no longer be active on the site and these cards will cease-to-exist.

Additionally, I imagine that a fair number of people will want the entire "set" which will cause them to go bid on other cards.

I am not sure where the number of a card having 3500+ copies came by. The most would be Kuriko's with 1600 copies. Addressing your point that aside, it is a poor analogy to compare one of the most expensive legendaries with what would be the most common (by number of copies) of these commemorative editions. A better measure would be comparing the average (and in which case Kuriko and Salaxalans would be the most copies for commemorative while Valentine would be only 300). While even on the low end compared to the NSC's numbers for average number of copies for S1 legendaries in addition to the aforementioned disinterest of some voters and them CTEing, what would be the major factor is that there would be no potential at all for anymore copies. At all. What we have is what we get and there's no ability to create more as we are able to do with other legendaries.

I think this idea would be fine if the cards were able to be found with the same mechanisms used to find s1 cards and should sufficiently suppress prices.
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Postby Noahs Second Country » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:39 pm

Praeceps wrote:I took into consideration also that not everyone who receives one of these cards would be interested in them. We all know of someone who wants a particular card but the owners of the card don't seem to be interested in cards anymore/will not respond to telegrams. So a fair amount of those cards won't be entering into circulation. Additionally, presumably some of these owners will no longer be active on the site and these cards will cease-to-exist.

This happens with any card - including legendaries. People have pulled my card and never responded to TGs before.

I am not sure where the number of a card having 3500+ copies came by. The most would be Kuriko's with 1600 copies. Addressing your point that aside, it is a poor analogy to compare one of the most expensive legendaries with what would be the most common (by number of copies) of these commemorative editions. A better measure would be comparing the average (and in which case Kuriko and Salaxalans would be the most copies for commemorative while Valentine would be only 300). While even on the low end compared to the NSC's numbers for average number of copies for S1 legendaries in addition to the aforementioned disinterest of some voters and them CTEing, what would be the major factor is that there would be no potential at all for anymore copies. At all. What we have is what we get and there's no ability to create more as we are able to do with other legendaries.

This is the primary issue I see with Strike's implementation. What would likely happen is extremely cheap prices for the first month or so, followed by periods of inflation that would ultimately become very unsustainable over a long period of time.

I think this idea would be fine if the cards were able to be found with the same mechanisms used to find s1 cards and should sufficiently suppress prices.

This is a good idea - maybe a .01% chance + the anti-transfer system could keep high trades from happening while keeping the cards 'special'.
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Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:02 pm

First of all, if you guys can figure out the mechanics/market, then I love this idea! But — just throwing this out there — that might mess with elections, with people switching their votes at the last minute to the person in last place to get a rarer card (assuming that person finishes in last place, fewer copies will be generated).
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Strike
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Postby Strike » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:18 pm

I doubt it. The rhein states card has the same rarity as testlandia but one is worth 15 the other 450. Yet common cards are technically the most rare, numbers wise, in the game and have the lowest value.

"Rarity" from a standpoint of the number of copies of a card that exist doesn't drive market value as much as you are implying. A card with a single copy might sell for 0 05 if it's not deemed important. I would guess most would keep their vote on the winner as the perceived more valuable card regardless of the number of copies

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Postby SherpDaWerp » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:06 am

Unibot III wrote:What if doing things in-game could earn you a shot at obtaining special cards from an easter egg loot box? Like, the admins hid “accomplishments” as easter eggs to be unlocked.

A special card might be, for instance, Maxtopia. Or [Violet]. Dredd. Mantle. Francos Spain. Cards for every GCR (including Warzones.)

The mechanics that unlocked the cards would remain a mystery for players. But once players started to earn them, the cards would be highly valued in circulation and players would desperately try to figure what combination of actions was resulting in a lootbox.

I actually like this idea, except for the ideas on who becomes a "special card".

You could add hidden objectives of varying difficulty (write 1% of all issues, become delegate of a GCR, even "survive N-Day with no radiation) and then special cards based on those objectives. As much as it would be cool, I don't think basing cards off famous past GPers (Or any NSers, for that matter) would be a good idea - as low as the chances are, what happens if/when they return? Basing the cards off players, no matter how significant, isn't a good idea.

But a [v] card, for, say, making a technical suggestion and getting it in the game? Sure! Maybe you get an "Issue" card, with the title of issue #0 on it, for making it into the top 1%. GA authorship could get you a "General Assembly" card, with the flag of the GA on it, and the same for the SC. GCR Delegacy could give you a card for that region, and surviving N-Day could get you a card of your faction.

But if the cards end up being findable through specific actions, I don't think they should be allowed to be traded. (And you should only be allowed to get 1 copy of each). This would limit the ability of farmers to fill the market. It wouldn't be a guarantee, but I think it wouldn't be long after implementing this that someone would cycle all their pups through delegacy of a smaller warzone, finding 20+ copies of the one "warzone" card, and selling it to people, thus entirely eliminating the novelty of unlocking such a card.

To finish, I'll list my thoughts on different "commemorative cards" that could be introduced:
  • Technical Suggestion - Make a successful suggestion on Technical about how the game could be improved. Reward: [violet] card (I'm wary of giving the techies another reason to delay tech suggestions by giving them another job to do in assigning someone a card, so this one is probably not the best. It's a cool idea, in theory, though.)
  • GA Authorship - Write and pass 5 (I don't do GA, numbers may vary) successful GA resolutions. Reward: GA card
  • SC Authorship - Write and pass 5 (same deal) successful SC resolutions. Reward: SC card
  • GCR Delegacy - Become the delegate of a GCR. Reward: Region card of the GCR. (possibly also with a tracker of how long you were delegate)
  • Issues Authorship - Write and have published 10 successful Issues. Reward: Card representing your 10th Issue? Card representing Issue #0?
  • N-Day - Survive N-Day with 0% Radiation. Reward: Card representing your faction (This one would be repeatably achievable for each year's N-Day. Objectives may change, too - maybe 1 year it's "make 100 successful strikes", maybe 1 year it's "deploy 100 shield")
  • Z-Day - Survive Z-Day with no Zombies. Reward: Card with the graph of your zombies on it (Same as N-day - repeatably achievable for each year, and possibly varying objectives like 0 dead, 0 zombies, maybe 5 nations cured, 5 nations zombified, etc)
  • April Fools (Sec-Gen) - Successfully make it into the top 5 and run in the General Election Reward: Card with emblem of Sec-Gen?
  • Forum Card - Make 100,000 Forum posts (given forumside and gameside are quite different, I don't know how viable this is) Reward: NationStates Logo card (like the one in the top left when you visit the main page of the forum)
Last edited by SherpDaWerp on Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
IRL: High school student who should almost definitely be doing assignments instead...
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Catsfern
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Founded: Mar 09, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Catsfern » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:33 am

I support this idea, but Id also suggest these cards be exceptions to a nations deck limit and non tradeable.
I use NS stats that applies to everyone no exceptions
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