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A shockwave of discreditings

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Democratic Socialists

A shockwave of discreditings

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:56 pm

As I've alluded to before, the W.H.O. has discredited itself on coronavirus. But what about the leaders who, on their advice, hesitated to enact travel bans? Their poor judgment in deferring to the W.H.O. got tens of thousands of people killed. Does the W.H.O. bear full liability for this, or do the "leaders" who listened to them deserve at least a share of the blame? (Or, at the very least, warrant stepping aside to make way for those who had the sense to suspect the W.H.O. were China's stooges from the start?) By what standard is culpability divided on this matter?

I feel there's been a shockwave of discreditings created by this virus. Pandemic spread has discredited the left on globalism. Supplies hoarding has discredited the right on capitalism. And as for comparisons to climate change... I don't know how whether the left's alarmist tone vs. hesitancy on drastic action (compared to this crisis) discredits this more, or the right's "plausible deniability" on whether or not they're actually denying climate change (Trump being an exception, of course) vs. outright opposition to even the left's half-measures (or incidentally, claiming it "fails to do anything about China" while themselves failing to do enough about China) discredits THEM more.

This whole thing is a shockwave of discreditings. I feel that if you put your faith and your trust in an "authority" on the matter and that authority gets discredited, you deserve at least some share of culpability for misplacing your faith and your trust, at least in comparison to those who were ahead of the curve on doubting them. The only question is how much of the culpability, and even I am not really sure whether that's "a lot" or "a little bit."

As for now... I would have a lot more respect for any politician who advocates the immediate abolition of the W.H.O. At least than I did before.
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Deacarsia
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A Shockwave of Discreditings

Postby Deacarsia » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:48 pm

I agree.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:53 pm

Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.
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Tornado Queendom
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Postby Tornado Queendom » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:11 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Don't forget the general public for "socially distancing" despite its death rate not being NEARLY as high as other diseases that we DON'T lock down our borders for!
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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:16 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:As I've alluded to before, the W.H.O. has discredited itself on coronavirus. But what about the leaders who, on their advice, hesitated to enact travel bans? Their poor judgment in deferring to the W.H.O. got tens of thousands of people killed. Does the W.H.O. bear full liability for this, or do the "leaders" who listened to them deserve at least a share of the blame? (Or, at the very least, warrant stepping aside to make way for those who had the sense to suspect the W.H.O. were China's stooges from the start?) By what standard is culpability divided on this matter?

I feel there's been a shockwave of discreditings created by this virus. Pandemic spread has discredited the left on globalism. Supplies hoarding has discredited the right on capitalism. And as for comparisons to climate change... I don't know how whether the left's alarmist tone vs. hesitancy on drastic action (compared to this crisis) discredits this more, or the right's "plausible deniability" on whether or not they're actually denying climate change (Trump being an exception, of course) vs. outright opposition to even the left's half-measures (or incidentally, claiming it "fails to do anything about China" while themselves failing to do enough about China) discredits THEM more.

This whole thing is a shockwave of discreditings. I feel that if you put your faith and your trust in an "authority" on the matter and that authority gets discredited, you deserve at least some share of culpability for misplacing your faith and your trust, at least in comparison to those who were ahead of the curve on doubting them. The only question is how much of the culpability, and even I am not really sure whether that's "a lot" or "a little bit."

As for now... I would have a lot more respect for any politician who advocates the immediate abolition of the W.H.O. At least than I did before.

Hindsight is 2020. The WHO will be discredited also if they recommend proactive lockdowns (again, something that is completely unprecedented) with the attendant economic shutdown/slowdown. Why? The virus will be contained like MERS and Ebola had been and people would be like "What's the big deal with all these lockdowns! You just got me unemployed!". They'll say the WHO doth protest too much and that they acted like the boy who cried wolf.

Still, I personally prefer that the latter's what happened instead of the current situation.
Last edited by Diarcesia on Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cekoviu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:17 pm

Tornado Queendom wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Don't forget the general public for "socially distancing" despite its death rate not being NEARLY as high as other diseases that we DON'T lock down our borders for!

...Like? What possible contagious diseases with the same level of transmission as COVID-19 are there that we don't lock things down for?
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Alba and Cymru
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Postby Alba and Cymru » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:24 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Tornado Queendom wrote:Don't forget the general public for "socially distancing" despite its death rate not being NEARLY as high as other diseases that we DON'T lock down our borders for!

...Like? What possible contagious diseases with the same level of transmission as COVID-19 are there that we don't lock things down for?


I mean, the flu is pretty high up there. We just don't lock down for it because it's seasonal and we play Russian Roulette with the strain of flu that we vaccinate for.

I'm just hoping COVID doesn't become seasonal for now on. The economy already has one shutdown too many. We'll be feeling this slowdown for years.
Last edited by Alba and Cymru on Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:27 pm

Alba and Cymru wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:...Like? What possible contagious diseases with the same level of transmission as COVID-19 are there that we don't lock things down for?


I mean, the flu is pretty high up there. We just don't lock down for it because it's seasonal and we play Russian Roulette with the strain of flu that we vaccinate for.

I'm just hoping COVID doesn't become seasonal for now on. The economy already has one shutdown too many. We'll be feeling this slowdown for years.


Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.
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anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
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Cekoviu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:28 pm

Alba and Cymru wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:...Like? What possible contagious diseases with the same level of transmission as COVID-19 are there that we don't lock things down for?


I mean, the flu is pretty high up there. We just don't lock down for it because it's seasonal and we play Russian Roulette with the strain of flu that we vaccinate for.

I'm just hoping COVID doesn't become seasonal for now on. The economy already has one shutdown too many. We'll be feeling this slowdown for years.

https://www.livescience.com/new-coronav ... h-flu.html
The coronavirus is pretty clearly worse than the flu in terms of fatality rate, although exactly how worse it is is unclear.
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Alba and Cymru
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Postby Alba and Cymru » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:32 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Alba and Cymru wrote:
I mean, the flu is pretty high up there. We just don't lock down for it because it's seasonal and we play Russian Roulette with the strain of flu that we vaccinate for.

I'm just hoping COVID doesn't become seasonal for now on. The economy already has one shutdown too many. We'll be feeling this slowdown for years.


Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.


Didn't say it wasn't. I'm just saying we take way less precautions with the flu because its a common occurrence. The flu was a death sentence years ago, and look where we are now.

Yes, this virus has a considerable fatality rate, but so does starvation.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:37 pm

Alba and Cymru wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.


Didn't say it wasn't. I'm just saying we take way less precautions with the flu because its a common occurrence. The flu was a death sentence years ago, and look where we are now.

Yes, this virus has a considerable fatality rate, but so does starvation.


You forgot something though, so lemme whisper this secret to you.

starvation kills more people than COVID, but the rich aren't at risk from it.
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pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
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Alba and Cymru
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Postby Alba and Cymru » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:43 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Alba and Cymru wrote:
Didn't say it wasn't. I'm just saying we take way less precautions with the flu because its a common occurrence. The flu was a death sentence years ago, and look where we are now.

Yes, this virus has a considerable fatality rate, but so does starvation.


You forgot something though, so lemme whisper this secret to you.

starvation kills more people than COVID, but the rich aren't at risk from it.


Correct. Though I would hate to see hundreds of millions of more starving people because of second Great Depression.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm

Alas, for many leaders, it's a great opportunity to shit on their people even more..

For Autocrats, and Others, Coronavirus Is a Chance to Grab Even More Power
Leaders around the world have passed emergency decrees and legislation expanding their reach during the pandemic. Will they ever relinquish them?


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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:53 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Yeah I agree with that assessment. Everyone has fucked up and the whole world is fucked. Not forever fucked just badly fucked. War time bad fucked.
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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:58 pm

Bombadil wrote:Alas, for many leaders, it's a great opportunity to shit on their people even more..

For Autocrats, and Others, Coronavirus Is a Chance to Grab Even More Power
Leaders around the world have passed emergency decrees and legislation expanding their reach during the pandemic. Will they ever relinquish them?


Link

I wonder what would be the best way for the emergency powers to be relinquished afterwards.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:00 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Yeah I agree with that assessment. Everyone has fucked up and the whole world is fucked. Not forever fucked just badly fucked. War time bad fucked.


We fucked up as bad as Biden did when he said "we hold these truths to be self elevedent, that all men are created by-oh you know the thing."
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Bromagia
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Postby Bromagia » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:19 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

We shouldn't leave out the newsholes, either, for blathering about nothing else even when they don't have anything new to add that's actually important or well verified.

"Tonight; Can Coronavirus infect your goldfish?!? We'll tell you one doctor's shocking take!"
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:01 am

I've not trusted the WHO since I heard they framed that guy Roger Rabbit.

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Ankenland
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Postby Ankenland » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:10 am

Rojava Free State wrote:Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.


2017-18 flu season CDC estimates 80K dead.

Let me know when coronavirus hits that peak - wait, it won't.

I guess, they'll just say that it didn't happen because they shut everything down. This wasn't how I expected capitalism to collapse, but it's fitting.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Democratic Socialists

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:11 am

Diarcesia wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:As I've alluded to before, the W.H.O. has discredited itself on coronavirus. But what about the leaders who, on their advice, hesitated to enact travel bans? Their poor judgment in deferring to the W.H.O. got tens of thousands of people killed. Does the W.H.O. bear full liability for this, or do the "leaders" who listened to them deserve at least a share of the blame? (Or, at the very least, warrant stepping aside to make way for those who had the sense to suspect the W.H.O. were China's stooges from the start?) By what standard is culpability divided on this matter?

I feel there's been a shockwave of discreditings created by this virus. Pandemic spread has discredited the left on globalism. Supplies hoarding has discredited the right on capitalism. And as for comparisons to climate change... I don't know how whether the left's alarmist tone vs. hesitancy on drastic action (compared to this crisis) discredits this more, or the right's "plausible deniability" on whether or not they're actually denying climate change (Trump being an exception, of course) vs. outright opposition to even the left's half-measures (or incidentally, claiming it "fails to do anything about China" while themselves failing to do enough about China) discredits THEM more.

This whole thing is a shockwave of discreditings. I feel that if you put your faith and your trust in an "authority" on the matter and that authority gets discredited, you deserve at least some share of culpability for misplacing your faith and your trust, at least in comparison to those who were ahead of the curve on doubting them. The only question is how much of the culpability, and even I am not really sure whether that's "a lot" or "a little bit."

As for now... I would have a lot more respect for any politician who advocates the immediate abolition of the W.H.O. At least than I did before.

Hindsight is 2020. The WHO will be discredited also if they recommend proactive lockdowns (again, something that is completely unprecedented) with the attendant economic shutdown/slowdown. Why? The virus will be contained like MERS and Ebola had been and people would be like "What's the big deal with all these lockdowns! You just got me unemployed!". They'll say the WHO doth protest too much and that they acted like the boy who cried wolf.

Still, I personally prefer that the latter's what happened instead of the current situation.

Absolute nonsense. SARS had been downplayed by the Chinese government and now something from the same family of viruses also had been. No reasonable person would expect this to be no worse than Ebola.

Also, I'm not talking about "lockdowns," I'm talking about travel bans. You know, to prevent enough of the virus from getting into the country to make lockdowns necessary?
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3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:28 am

Tornado Queendom wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Don't forget the general public for "socially distancing" despite its death rate not being NEARLY as high as other diseases that we DON'T lock down our borders for!


It's more contagious than those other diseases with the high mortality rates.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:53 am

China: was never credible to begin with
WHO: is discredited because they laundered China's proganda
World leaders listening to WHO: Fair enough. WHO was a respected organisation.
Capitalism: No. excessive consumption is a known and predicted consequence of price fixing measures, and one of the primary moral arguments against antigouging laws. Here's a video from a libertarian think tank, 8 years ago, on the point.
Globalism: Yes. Both on the need for border security and on the foolishness of concentrating production in foreign country. Globalism is not an exclusively left position. Both the left and the right have supporters and opponents of it.

Diarcesia wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:As I've alluded to before, the W.H.O. has discredited itself on coronavirus. But what about the leaders who, on their advice, hesitated to enact travel bans? Their poor judgment in deferring to the W.H.O. got tens of thousands of people killed. Does the W.H.O. bear full liability for this, or do the "leaders" who listened to them deserve at least a share of the blame? (Or, at the very least, warrant stepping aside to make way for those who had the sense to suspect the W.H.O. were China's stooges from the start?) By what standard is culpability divided on this matter?

I feel there's been a shockwave of discreditings created by this virus. Pandemic spread has discredited the left on globalism. Supplies hoarding has discredited the right on capitalism. And as for comparisons to climate change... I don't know how whether the left's alarmist tone vs. hesitancy on drastic action (compared to this crisis) discredits this more, or the right's "plausible deniability" on whether or not they're actually denying climate change (Trump being an exception, of course) vs. outright opposition to even the left's half-measures (or incidentally, claiming it "fails to do anything about China" while themselves failing to do enough about China) discredits THEM more.

This whole thing is a shockwave of discreditings. I feel that if you put your faith and your trust in an "authority" on the matter and that authority gets discredited, you deserve at least some share of culpability for misplacing your faith and your trust, at least in comparison to those who were ahead of the curve on doubting them. The only question is how much of the culpability, and even I am not really sure whether that's "a lot" or "a little bit."

As for now... I would have a lot more respect for any politician who advocates the immediate abolition of the W.H.O. At least than I did before.

Hindsight is 2020. The WHO will be discredited also if they recommend proactive lockdowns (again, something that is completely unprecedented) with the attendant economic shutdown/slowdown. Why? The virus will be contained like MERS and Ebola had been and people would be like "What's the big deal with all these lockdowns! You just got me unemployed!". They'll say the WHO doth protest too much and that they acted like the boy who cried wolf.

Still, I personally prefer that the latter's what happened instead of the current situation.

Maybe. They would have been wrong though. You don't need hindsight to know trusting China without verifying their claims is negligent.
Last edited by Aclion on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The people who participated in China's denial of their role in this outbreak deserve the same scorn and derision of those who've helped past regimes deny their own atrocities.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4159
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:53 pm

Aclion wrote:World leaders listening to WHO: Fair enough. WHO was a respected organisation.

The other side of it, though... suppose someone was "ahead of the curve" on being skeptical of the WHO. Does this not lend them more credibility, now, not unlike if someone was "ahead of the curve" on any other idea?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Andsed
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8319
Founded: Aug 24, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Andsed » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:45 pm

Ankenland wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.


2017-18 flu season CDC estimates 80K dead.

Let me know when coronavirus hits that peak - wait, it won't.

I guess, they'll just say that it didn't happen because they shut everything down. This wasn't how I expected capitalism to collapse, but it's fitting.

Uh buddy there are around 87k deaths from coronavirus. It has already surpassed that. And it will continue to rise and would be higher if we did not shut everything down. This is worse than the flu.
Last edited by Andsed on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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