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STEMinism & Women in Biology: The Female of the Species

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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"STEMinism has an overemphasis on women in the non-life sciences". Agree or Disagree?

Strongly Agree
4
13%
Agree
8
27%
Neither Agree nor Disagree
8
27%
Disagree
4
13%
Strongly Disagree
1
3%
Don't know
5
17%
 
Total votes : 30

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Diopolis
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Posts: 16479
Founded: May 15, 2012
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:29 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Diopolis wrote:It's worth noting that moorish countries invariably have great gender balances in engineering, well, except for the handful where women aren't allowed outside. European countries do not.

>moorish countries
>in 2020
>native english speaker

Oh, is that the current year?
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St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:40 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:>moorish countries
>in 2020
>native english speaker

Oh, is that the current year?

It all depends on whether your perception of time is linear or cyclical
RWDT - REST IN POWER
Market socialist, David Hume fangirl, and massive Tuvaboo. Moderate SWERF & traditionalist SJW. Non-denominational Christian, influenced by Orthodoxy and certain Protestant currents.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

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Diopolis
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Founded: May 15, 2012
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:45 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Oh, is that the current year?

It all depends on whether your perception of time is linear or cyclical

Cubic.
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texan distributist and paleoconservative.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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Cekoviu
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Founded: Oct 18, 2017
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:47 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:It all depends on whether your perception of time is linear or cyclical

Cubic.

In that case, 2020 is the current year, but it was also the current year last year, the year before last year, the year to the right of this one, and the year to the left of this one.
RWDT - REST IN POWER
Market socialist, David Hume fangirl, and massive Tuvaboo. Moderate SWERF & traditionalist SJW. Non-denominational Christian, influenced by Orthodoxy and certain Protestant currents.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

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Diopolis
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Founded: May 15, 2012
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:49 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Cubic.

In that case, 2020 is the current year, but it was also the current year last year, the year before last year, the year to the right of this one, and the year to the left of this one.

Hey, the wisest human says there are only four sides to a cube. That's five.
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texan distributist and paleoconservative.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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Cekoviu
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Posts: 16092
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:50 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:In that case, 2020 is the current year, but it was also the current year last year, the year before last year, the year to the right of this one, and the year to the left of this one.

Hey, the wisest human says there are only four sides to a cube. That's five.

4 sides is a rectangular pyramid. Cubes have 7 sides.
RWDT - REST IN POWER
Market socialist, David Hume fangirl, and massive Tuvaboo. Moderate SWERF & traditionalist SJW. Non-denominational Christian, influenced by Orthodoxy and certain Protestant currents.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

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Stanmenistan
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Posts: 275
Founded: Jan 31, 2015
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Postby Stanmenistan » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:06 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Stanmenistan wrote:The only way to guarantee gender balance in all careers and fields would be enforcing a neo-Feudalist/Caste system on people, from cradle to grave. Picking out children's career paths out before they are even born. Raising children to consider only one occupation, only one career, only one future, only one possibility, instead of alternatives. That is my idea of a Dystopia.

This is only the case if you think there is actually an inherent biological basis for differences in career choices, which I find highly suspect; all you've offered for that is some really shitty evopsych and toy choices in non-human animals

While you've offered no evidence to counter my arguments. I find that highly suspect. Even TEDx acknowledges the monkey tests when discussing girls and boys toys.

And again, I said Guarantee a strict 50/50 gender balance, not simply encouraging it to be closer. That's the difference.

If you want 50/50 in all STEM Fields, you have to tell kids what they can and cannot do (only girls can be engineers, only boys can be medical scientists etc). If you simply want more women in STEM fields where they are underrepresented and/or unsupported, you have to encourage children to explore all the different STEM topics (not just chemistry, physics, technology, engineering and maths but biology as well) and to treat everybody with respect.
Last edited by Stanmenistan on Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
About me
Man is free at the instant he wants to be-Voltaire
Think for yourself & let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too― Voltaire
We know more about the surface of the moon than the deep oceans of our own planet-Alastair Fothergill
If we do not become active partners in crafting the policies that involve & affect our work, it will be done without our insight, reason & wisdom-Rita R Colwell
The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshipped in the cathedral or in the laboratory. His creation is majestic, awesome, intricate, & beautiful-Francis Collins
It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right & wrong-Jeremy Bentham

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Purple Rats
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Founded: Mar 20, 2020
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Postby Purple Rats » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:09 pm

Stanmenistan wrote:While you've offered no evidence to counter my arguments. I find that highly suspect. Even TEDx acknowledges the monkey tests when discussing girls and boys toys.


This is like third time already when I see that you are linking some monkey test in different threads. Are you obsessed with them?

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Albrenia
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Posts: 12609
Founded: Aug 18, 2017
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Postby Albrenia » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:36 pm

Purple Rats wrote:
Stanmenistan wrote:While you've offered no evidence to counter my arguments. I find that highly suspect. Even TEDx acknowledges the monkey tests when discussing girls and boys toys.


This is like third time already when I see that you are linking some monkey test in different threads. Are you obsessed with them?


Monkeys are pretty cool. I don't blame someone for shoehorning them into conversations, tbh.

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Purple Rats
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Posts: 807
Founded: Mar 20, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Purple Rats » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:14 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Purple Rats wrote:
This is like third time already when I see that you are linking some monkey test in different threads. Are you obsessed with them?


Monkeys are pretty cool. I don't blame someone for shoehorning them into conversations, tbh.


They are, it's just weird to see how someone brings in "look at these monkeys" in every thread :lol2:

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Stanmenistan
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Founded: Jan 31, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Stanmenistan » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:44 pm

Purple Rats wrote:
Stanmenistan wrote:While you've offered no evidence to counter my arguments. I find that highly suspect. Even TEDx acknowledges the monkey tests when discussing girls and boys toys.


This is like third time already when I see that you are linking some monkey test in different threads. Are you obsessed with them?

IIRC, I only mentioned the toy tests on apes were here on this thread and the Trans Discussion Thread 4: Not Allowed To Endorse For GenSec. I simply mean to bring these tests up when relevant (discussions of whether toys are gender stereotyping, simply giving boys and girls what they want or a combination of the two).
About me
Man is free at the instant he wants to be-Voltaire
Think for yourself & let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too― Voltaire
We know more about the surface of the moon than the deep oceans of our own planet-Alastair Fothergill
If we do not become active partners in crafting the policies that involve & affect our work, it will be done without our insight, reason & wisdom-Rita R Colwell
The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshipped in the cathedral or in the laboratory. His creation is majestic, awesome, intricate, & beautiful-Francis Collins
It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right & wrong-Jeremy Bentham

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Stanmenistan
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Posts: 275
Founded: Jan 31, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Stanmenistan » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:19 am

BTW Goldieblox, these girls might be able to build spacecraft, but do you know who will get to go to explore other worlds, especially if there is a possibility of life? Like on Europa, where creatures similar to deep sea life may exist? It would be the biologists, male and female who would be the best choice, especially marine biologists specializing in deep sea animals. Of course, engineering is a vital job too, but Engineers=/=Astronauts. Remember that.


So Goldieblox likes to promote STEM (with a lack of emphasis on Biology) by parodying classic rock songs, eh? Two can play at that game, and one of them is me.

When I was a young girl
My mother took me into the city
To see a zoo and aquarium

She said, "Girl when you grow up
Would you be the savior of the Endangered,
The vulnerable and the Near Threatened?"
She said "Will you defeat them
Their demons, and all the STEMinists
The plans that they have made?"
"Because one day I'll leave you
A phantom to lead you in the summer
To join The Biology Parade"

When I was a young girl
My mother took me into the city
To see a zoo and aquarium
She said, "Girl when you grow up
Would you be the savior of the Endangered,
The vulnerable and the Near Threatened?"
-The Biology Parade (Parody of The Black Parade by My Chemical Romance)


Sweat girlie sweat girlie play is a Texas drought
Me and you do the kind of stuff that only Shakira would sing about
So put your paws down my box and I'll bet you'll feel claws
Yes I'm Backshall, yes I'm Wilkinson and you're getting on the 60

You've had enough of mechanical touch
You want it primal, you're out of bounds
I want you learned, want you educated
Like my zoo house hash browns

Come quicker than Cheetah, never reach an apex
Just like Biotechnology stock
You are inclined to make me rise an hour early
Just like daylight savings time

(Play it now)
You and me girlie ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's play like they do on the Discovery channel
(Do it again now)
You and me girlie ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's play like they do on the Discovery channel
(Gettin' wild now)
-The Biological Touch (A parody of the Bad Touch by The Bloodhound Gang)
Last edited by Stanmenistan on Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
About me
Man is free at the instant he wants to be-Voltaire
Think for yourself & let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too― Voltaire
We know more about the surface of the moon than the deep oceans of our own planet-Alastair Fothergill
If we do not become active partners in crafting the policies that involve & affect our work, it will be done without our insight, reason & wisdom-Rita R Colwell
The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshipped in the cathedral or in the laboratory. His creation is majestic, awesome, intricate, & beautiful-Francis Collins
It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right & wrong-Jeremy Bentham

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Stanmenistan
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Posts: 275
Founded: Jan 31, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Stanmenistan » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:56 am

About me
Man is free at the instant he wants to be-Voltaire
Think for yourself & let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too― Voltaire
We know more about the surface of the moon than the deep oceans of our own planet-Alastair Fothergill
If we do not become active partners in crafting the policies that involve & affect our work, it will be done without our insight, reason & wisdom-Rita R Colwell
The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshipped in the cathedral or in the laboratory. His creation is majestic, awesome, intricate, & beautiful-Francis Collins
It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right & wrong-Jeremy Bentham

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:17 am

Don't bump the thread.

All you're doing is hammering home the impression given by your Original Post. That you're much more interested in putting your own opinion (with links or whatever) than in creating debate on the subject.

NSG is not your blog.
Also, AiliAiliA
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

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Stanmenistan
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Founded: Jan 31, 2015
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Postby Stanmenistan » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:45 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:All you're doing is hammering home the impression given by your Original Post. That you're much more interested in putting your own opinion (with links or whatever) than in creating debate on the subject

Of course I am hammering home the impression given by your Original Post. I'm showing further evidence. And if anyone does want to debate me on this topic, feel free.
About me
Man is free at the instant he wants to be-Voltaire
Think for yourself & let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too― Voltaire
We know more about the surface of the moon than the deep oceans of our own planet-Alastair Fothergill
If we do not become active partners in crafting the policies that involve & affect our work, it will be done without our insight, reason & wisdom-Rita R Colwell
The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshipped in the cathedral or in the laboratory. His creation is majestic, awesome, intricate, & beautiful-Francis Collins
It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right & wrong-Jeremy Bentham

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:30 am

Stanmenistan wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:All you're doing is hammering home the impression given by your Original Post. That you're much more interested in putting your own opinion (with links or whatever) than in creating debate on the subject

Of course I am hammering home the impression given by your Original Post. I'm showing further evidence. And if anyone does want to debate me on this topic, feel free.


You're doing it wrong.

It actually matters a lot how you phrase the Original Post.

You probably see this thread as "I put a thesis, nobody proved me wrong, therefore I am right"

But what I see is a failure to defend any one point of view, because your OP was too vague to disprove.

The OP is pretty much essential. That's how you get in supporters AND opponents, that's how you cause a debate which you are one participant in. Vague shit does not get that done. Broad issues, won't get it done. You need to TAKE A POSITION in the OP, or get right out of the way and ask an interesting question.

Call it a thread. 9 pages isn't bad, it's well above the average of threads I started (as Ailiailia and as Nobel Hobos too)

Take my advice. Don't use NSG as your blog. Phrase your interest as a question.
Also, AiliAiliA
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

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Stanmenistan
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Posts: 275
Founded: Jan 31, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Stanmenistan » Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:36 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Stanmenistan wrote:Of course I am hammering home the impression given by your Original Post. I'm showing further evidence. And if anyone does want to debate me on this topic, feel free.


You're doing it wrong.

It actually matters a lot how you phrase the Original Post.

You probably see this thread as "I put a thesis, nobody proved me wrong, therefore I am right"

But what I see is a failure to defend any one point of view, because your OP was too vague to disprove.

The OP is pretty much essential. That's how you get in supporters AND opponents, that's how you cause a debate which you are one participant in. Vague shit does not get that done. Broad issues, won't get it done. You need to TAKE A POSITION in the OP, or get right out of the way and ask an interesting question.

Call it a thread. 9 pages isn't bad, it's well above the average of threads I started (as Ailiailia and as Nobel Hobos too)

Take my advice. Don't use NSG as your blog. Phrase your interest as a question.

I did already. I edited my OP to include the question Does STEMinism (STEM feminism) ignore or downplay the vast female presence in the field of Biology? If so, should it?. I feel that the answer to the first question is yes. My answer to the second is that STEMinism should not be downplaying women in biology so much. I know it's probably unintentional, but still, this is very hurtful to women working in biology, one of the most important fields of science today (Environmentalism, endangered species and epidemics are all biological issues at heart). It's another form of femininity shaming to me, albeit an unintentional women. Femininity shaming used to mean "Real women don't wear dresses" (as if clothing choice was the same thing as womanhood), but now it seems to mean "Real girls don't study biology" (as if career choice is the same thing as womanhood).

To me, this idealization, vindication, and celebration (or even Lionization) of female engineers, female mathematicians, female chemists, female physicists, female computer programmers and all the other women in the non-life science based need not and SHOULD not come at the expense of female biologists (and women in healthcare and animal treatment as well, as both of those fields are based (for the most part) in biology). I have female relatives that work in the healthcare field, and it saddens me that a younger generation may see them as less worthy of respect due to working in such a "feminine" field. STEM would only be a household term thanks to two Female Biologists (Rita R Colwell and Judith Ramaley) who worked for NSF. They can be good role models for girls too! Even if they want to work in other fields, they can still see them as role models. Rita's achievements are just as great as any of the women listed in the Rebel Girls books or any of the female scientists interviewed on these websites.
Last edited by Stanmenistan on Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
About me
Man is free at the instant he wants to be-Voltaire
Think for yourself & let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too― Voltaire
We know more about the surface of the moon than the deep oceans of our own planet-Alastair Fothergill
If we do not become active partners in crafting the policies that involve & affect our work, it will be done without our insight, reason & wisdom-Rita R Colwell
The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshipped in the cathedral or in the laboratory. His creation is majestic, awesome, intricate, & beautiful-Francis Collins
It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right & wrong-Jeremy Bentham

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Stanmenistan
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Posts: 275
Founded: Jan 31, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Stanmenistan » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:35 am

I found this article by Alice Bennett on the women in STEM website, and its very revealing of their true agenda.
The diversity of courses that fit within the science, technology, engineering and mathematics disciplines is also representative of who is applying for them. An entire sector of professionals have been behind national campaigns to encourage women to study STEM subjects, but there is still a distinct gender split – with young women being drawn to the science-based subjects such as dentistry, nursing, biology, psychology, and medicine, and men to courses within the technology, engineering and mathematics fields.

In fact, by the January application deadline for undergraduate courses starting this September, young women were roughly seven times as likely to apply for courses in both veterinary sciences and education and learning. Men were around four times as likely to apply to courses in both computing, and engineering and technology.

Well, maybe that's because that's what they want to do? Don't force young women into jobs and careers they don't want, celebrate them for who they are. Perhaps more women want to be biologists (or dentistry, nursing, psychology or medicine for that matter) because of important biological differences between females and males, which I've mentioned before. Most women want to work in jobs that revolve around other people or living things.

Another article on the website (by Anne-Marie Imafidon) even points this out, showing how women are different to men
There are, however, initiates to help young girls from as young as five to get involved in science- and technology-based subjects and Anne-Marie suggests seeking them out. “Young women are great at problem-solving,” she says. “They want to help find resolutions, which is why subjects such as medicine, biology and veterinary science don’t have the same problems recruiting women”


Truly, the only way to get a (near)perfect balance in all fields and careers would be forcing one male and one female to do each job, albeit after forcing more men in to jobs that skew female and forcing more women in to jobs that skew male. But to maintain that balance in the long run, you'd have to force people to do jobs they may not want to do, and that's basically a feudal/caste system, something I think most people would agree is a bad thing. Encouraging it to be closer is one thing, but forcing it to be 50/50 is a completely ludicrous and extremist idea.
About me
Man is free at the instant he wants to be-Voltaire
Think for yourself & let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too― Voltaire
We know more about the surface of the moon than the deep oceans of our own planet-Alastair Fothergill
If we do not become active partners in crafting the policies that involve & affect our work, it will be done without our insight, reason & wisdom-Rita R Colwell
The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshipped in the cathedral or in the laboratory. His creation is majestic, awesome, intricate, & beautiful-Francis Collins
It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right & wrong-Jeremy Bentham

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