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LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What kind of Leftist are you?

Centrist/Moderate/Third wayer.
17
12%
Social Liberal
10
7%
Social Democrat
22
16%
Green Progressive
7
5%
Democratic Socialist
25
18%
Marxist Communist
19
14%
Anarchist Communist
20
14%
Other (please state)
20
14%
 
Total votes : 140

User avatar
Deltia-
Attaché
 
Posts: 70
Founded: Jul 13, 2019
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Deltia- » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:40 pm

warning: i am about to say something about this blm stuff.

Well, I sympathize with the plight of BLM, but frankly, its near impossible to fulfill all their demands within our lifetimes. Racism has, does and will always exist, and one way or another a racist will get into the police force and kill someone just on their skin color. The best way to stop this is not to stop racism, but to harshly punish police officers with death sentences or life in jail for doing something like killing a non-threatening person. That will deter the majority of racist cops from doing such things as they will lose their own lives if they do something stupid. To ensure this, fill juries with people proven to have no bias towards such offenders based on their race, gender, sexuality or whatever. This will act as a strong deterrent, in my opinion. There will be some outliers, but over time, police brutality would decrease.
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The Marlborough
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 469
Founded: May 27, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:59 pm

Kowani wrote:
Galloism wrote:Some of it is just damn out there too - like the weird demand from the Seattle group to bring back segregation in medicine and education.

Just.... what?

Don’t know about the education stuff, but it is empirical fact that white doctors treat black patients worse than they do white ones (on average).

So only black medical staff should treat black people?
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User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21725
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:03 pm

Deltia- wrote:warning: i am about to say something about this blm stuff.

Well, I sympathize with the plight of BLM, but frankly, its near impossible to fulfill all their demands within our lifetimes. Racism has, does and will always exist, and one way or another a racist will get into the police force and kill someone just on their skin color. The best way to stop this is not to stop racism, but to harshly punish police officers with death sentences or life in jail for doing something like killing a non-threatening person. That will deter the majority of racist cops from doing such things as they will lose their own lives if they do something stupid. To ensure this, fill juries with people proven to have no bias towards such offenders based on their race, gender, sexuality or whatever. This will act as a strong deterrent, in my opinion. There will be some outliers, but over time, police brutality would decrease.

Okay. This is a terrible idea.
Racism in the police force is mostly to do with grater cultural stereotypes and media perception of minorities, things which can be alleviated.

The death penalty is empirically not a deterrent.

As for jurors, rather than trying to find people who have no implicit bias whatsoever, just put at least one minority on the jury, and you see that conviction rate gap disappears entirely.
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User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21725
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:09 pm

The Marlborough wrote:
Kowani wrote:Don’t know about the education stuff, but it is empirical fact that white doctors treat black patients worse than they do white ones (on average).

So only black medical staff should treat black people?

Well, no.
Less racism within the medical profession would be a better solution.

(Also, there aren’t enough black medical staff in the country for that to be feasible)
Spanish Atheist.
If an area was ours for 500 years and yours for 50 years, it should belong to us – you are merely occupiers.
If an area was yours for 500 years and ours for 50 years, it should belong to us – borders must not be changed.
If an area belonged to us 500 years ago but never since then, it should belong to us – it is the cradle of our nation.
If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must enjoy the right of self-determination.
If a minority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must be protected against your oppression.
All of the above rules apply to us, but not to you.
Our dream of greatness is historical necessity, yours is fascism.

User avatar
The Marlborough
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 469
Founded: May 27, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:10 pm

Kowani wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:So only black medical staff should treat black people?

Well, no.
Less racism within the medical profession would be a better solution.

(Also, there aren’t enough black medical staff in the country for that to be feasible)

That's what the demand is for and what Gallo is saying is ridiculous.
Monarchist. Communitarian. Eastern Orthodox Christian.
Everything for the people, nothing by the people - Emperor Joseph II
If I could wish immortality on earth, it would only be for the power of relieving the distressed - Maria Theresa
A playlist of 17th century English folk songs for your enjoyment while you waste time here.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21725
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:12 pm

The Marlborough wrote:
Kowani wrote:Well, no.
Less racism within the medical profession would be a better solution.

(Also, there aren’t enough black medical staff in the country for that to be feasible)

That's what the demand is for and what Gallo is saying is ridiculous.

Oh, I agree with the idea that it’s ridiculous.

I was merely elaborating upon the fact that the grievance is a legitimate one.
Last edited by Kowani on Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spanish Atheist.
If an area was ours for 500 years and yours for 50 years, it should belong to us – you are merely occupiers.
If an area was yours for 500 years and ours for 50 years, it should belong to us – borders must not be changed.
If an area belonged to us 500 years ago but never since then, it should belong to us – it is the cradle of our nation.
If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must enjoy the right of self-determination.
If a minority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must be protected against your oppression.
All of the above rules apply to us, but not to you.
Our dream of greatness is historical necessity, yours is fascism.

User avatar
Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4289
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:04 pm

Liriena wrote:I don't think this is exclusive to "identity politics", mind you. I certainly see a lot of Marxists and post-modernists doing the same: creating spaces which almost nobody would ever feel comfortable approaching because the requirements to be included are increasingly numerous, specific and restrictive.

To some extent these are viewpoints that are almost inevitably quite dense. If you want to approach them, you have to do at least some reading. I say this as someone who's not necessarily very fond of reading, although I try.

Cisairse wrote:
Liriena wrote:I don't think this is exclusive to "identity politics", mind you. I certainly see a lot of Marxists and post-modernists doing the same: creating spaces which almost nobody would ever feel comfortable approaching because the requirements to be included are increasingly numerous, specific and restrictive.

On the other hand the feds admitting that it's impossible to infiltrate leftist groups because the barrier to entry is so high was a major win for the movement.

In my experience, most lefties haven't read anything that should be too difficult to get into. These people are probably just incompetent, tbh.

I find it more curious that they "admit" to doing it in the first place, unless what you're talking about is some sort of leak.
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Shanghai industrial complex
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1910
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:58 pm

Kowani wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:So only black medical staff should treat black people?

Well, no.
Less racism within the medical profession would be a better solution.

(Also, there aren’t enough black medical staff in the country for that to be feasible)


Are you sure it's about reducing racism rather than letting patients choose doctors by color?When people stop talking about color, it's when racism dies.If you keep saying that there are too few black doctors and too many white doctors, everyone will quarrel on this issue.And no one cares if these people are qualified doctors.
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User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21725
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:06 am

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:
Kowani wrote:Well, no.
Less racism within the medical profession would be a better solution.

(Also, there aren’t enough black medical staff in the country for that to be feasible)


Are you sure it's about reducing racism rather than letting patients choose doctors by color?

Yes.
When people stop talking about color, it's when racism dies.

“If we stopped talking about murder, there’d be no murder.”
If you keep saying that there are too few black doctors and too many white doctors, everyone will quarrel on this issue.And no one cares if these people are qualified doctors.

…Why on earth is it every time we say “we need more minority X” people always assume we want unqualified people in those positions?

I posit the radical theory that we want to eliminate the things like structural poverty, and hiring racism that make it harder for minorities to achieve success under capitalism.
Spanish Atheist.
If an area was ours for 500 years and yours for 50 years, it should belong to us – you are merely occupiers.
If an area was yours for 500 years and ours for 50 years, it should belong to us – borders must not be changed.
If an area belonged to us 500 years ago but never since then, it should belong to us – it is the cradle of our nation.
If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must enjoy the right of self-determination.
If a minority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must be protected against your oppression.
All of the above rules apply to us, but not to you.
Our dream of greatness is historical necessity, yours is fascism.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34660
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:30 pm

Kowani wrote:
Galloism wrote:Some of it is just damn out there too - like the weird demand from the Seattle group to bring back segregation in medicine and education.

Just.... what?

Don’t know about the education stuff, but it is empirical fact that white doctors treat black patients worse than they do white ones (on average).


But the solution is not bringing back “separate but equal”.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34660
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:33 pm

Kowani wrote:
Deltia- wrote:warning: i am about to say something about this blm stuff.

Well, I sympathize with the plight of BLM, but frankly, its near impossible to fulfill all their demands within our lifetimes. Racism has, does and will always exist, and one way or another a racist will get into the police force and kill someone just on their skin color. The best way to stop this is not to stop racism, but to harshly punish police officers with death sentences or life in jail for doing something like killing a non-threatening person. That will deter the majority of racist cops from doing such things as they will lose their own lives if they do something stupid. To ensure this, fill juries with people proven to have no bias towards such offenders based on their race, gender, sexuality or whatever. This will act as a strong deterrent, in my opinion. There will be some outliers, but over time, police brutality would decrease.

Okay. This is a terrible idea.
Racism in the police force is mostly to do with grater cultural stereotypes and media perception of minorities, things which can be alleviated.

The death penalty is empirically not a deterrent.

As for jurors, rather than trying to find people who have no implicit bias whatsoever, just put at least one minority on the jury, and you see that conviction rate gap disappears entirely.


Actually I am okay with having juries match the demographic makeup of the area, because jurors are just chosen randomly from the general population and do not need any real qualifications.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
The Reformed American Republic
Diplomat
 
Posts: 807
Founded: May 23, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:38 pm

Novus America wrote:
Kowani wrote:Don’t know about the education stuff, but it is empirical fact that white doctors treat black patients worse than they do white ones (on average).


But the solution is not bringing back “separate but equal”.

Horseshoe theory at its finest.
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Reploid Productions
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 26698
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:21 pm

After considerable internal review by the moderation team (the official discussion began in mid-May, with off-and-on discussion as far back as last year), both the "Left Wing Discussion Thread" and the "Right Wing Discussion Thread" megathreads will be permanently closed going forward. While this is not a blanket ban on megathreads, it represents a tightening of the guidelines under which megathreads are acceptable and how they must operate.

What qualifies for a megathread?
  • A topic which has at its focus a specific, singular subject, such as a current news event (IE: election thread, anti-police protests), a frequent recurring debate (IE: abortion, gun control), or a political figure (IE: the US president.)
  • Discussion on that specific, singular subject as the thread's primary focus, not simple socializing motivated by underlying interest in the subject. Conversational drift is okay, but it must remain on that specific, singular primary focus.
In short, both the "wing" threads fail both of these metrics. "Left wing" encompasses an enormous range of political ideologies and beliefs ranging from the mildest flavors of left-of-center social democracy clear out to the most extreme variants of communism. "Right wing" similarly encompasses an enormous range of political ideologies and beliefs ranging from mild right-of-center fiscal conservatism clear out to the most extreme flavors of fascism and nationalism. The "wings" are not topics so much as they are measuring tools, and both threads have demonstrated themselves to be prone to considerable off-topic socializing as a result of this overly-broad subject matter.

In addition, it has bred problematic cliques that have become insulated from rules enforcement due to an unfortunate combination of thread participants refusing to report (and even actively discouraging reporting of) rulebreaking conduct and thread outsiders being disinclined to dig into it to locate and report it. Moderation lacks the time and the manpower to babysit such threads personally, and thread regulars have proven repeatedly that they either can not or will not regulate themselves.

If there are other megathreads that you feel similarly fail the above metrics, we will be happy to review additional megathreads as needed. Please include some samples from the thread that you feel indicate it is falling short of the above metrics.

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