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Race: Social Construct or Science?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Is race a social construct or based in genetics?

Race is a social construct, and there can be no meaningful genetic classification since each person is unique
43
15%
Race as a concept is a social construct, but certain groups of people do share meaningful genetic similarities
134
48%
Neutral/Unsure
5
2%
Race is rooted in genetic science because many groups of people have been isolated and developed unique phenotypes
62
22%
Race is rooted in science because different races are fundamentally different
32
11%
Other
3
1%
 
Total votes : 279

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Aureumterra
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Race: Social Construct or Science?

Postby Aureumterra » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:51 pm

This has been a debate for a long time, what exactly is race, and is it even real? Those who argue race has a basis in science say that genetically speaking, you can group vast swaths of people together who share a common phenotype. Meanwhile, those who argue that race is a social construct point out how each human’s genetic makeup is completely unique and that these rudimentary groupings popped up in society as it developed.

What complicates things even more is that race as a concept is a relatively new thing. You’d think that the further back in time you go, the more prominent race was in daily life and racism was widespread, but you may be surprised to find out that race played little to no role in medieval and early renaissance Europe, but rather religion did. It seems people back then just didn’t give much thought to other people who looked different. Reading accounts of multiple Ethiopian kings making pilgrimages to Constantinople and the interaction between Arabs and Europeans during the crusades, it seems race was simply just not a thing people considered back then.

Now proponents of race say that races are a group of genotypes and phenotypes that play a scientific role in your life. They say things like lactose intolerance in Asians, sickle cell disease in Africans, and other such conditions are proof that race is rooted in science. This isn’t to say that they are all racists, as in believing the superiority of one race or inferiority of others, but they think race is a real thing based in human genetics.

So what is your thought on the topic?

I think, while there are definitely groups of phenotypes that can be made with people, that "race" as a modern concept is 100% a social construct. The reason for this is because the position that race is rooted in science simply doesn’t make sense, you don’t need much more proof than the fact that certain ethnicities changed race in the past. Take for example Irish people, who weren’t considered white until the 20th century, or Arabs, who have been alternating between white and their own classification throughout the years.
Last edited by Aureumterra on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Heloin » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:00 pm

Race exists in the sociological and anthropological senses, which generally derives from social difference and cosmetic differences. Race in the biological sense isn’t a thing between humans and the differences you do get between different groups of humans doesn’t do enough to qualify any group as a different race.
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Postby Kowani » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:03 pm

I’ll trust the actual scientists, thanks.
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Postby Albrenia » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:04 pm

There's not even enough difference between most humans to qualify as being different breeds if we were dogs or cats in most cases. The differences really are mostly superficial.

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Postby Nouveau Quebecois » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:07 pm

Oh no
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Postby Heloin » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:08 pm

Kowani wrote:I’ll trust the actual scientists, thanks.

Im an actual anthropologist too...
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Postby Togeria » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:08 pm

It's a social construct in that it can be used a determiner of tribal affiliation mostly in US and Canada but all around the Americas too and even other parts. The science behind doesn't stand I remember from a video though I forget which one it said that you're likely to see more genetic variation between peoples of the same race than different.

Which makes sense the only thing race really displays is our phenotype and those traits are strongest, on a more biological level though the origin of how they got those traits is the real story.

Thinking about it you're gonna see more genetic similarities between people in the same country despite what laws and construct in place, just because they're closest to each other sure their "race" might not show it but if they've been in a place with a lot of peoples for any point of time over a decade you're gonna see some mixing and variance.
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Postby Valentine Z » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:08 pm

Albrenia wrote:There's not even enough difference between most humans to qualify as being different breeds if we were dogs or cats in most cases. The differences really are mostly superficial.

It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are actually of different breeds to one another.
Last edited by Valentine Z on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nouveau Quebecois » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:09 pm

Valentine Z wrote:
Albrenia wrote:There's not even enough difference between most humans to qualify as being different breeds if we were dogs or cats in most cases. The differences really are mostly superficial.

It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are of actual different breeds.

Don't we... already treat different breeds of animals differently?
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Postby Albrenia » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:10 pm

Valentine Z wrote:
Albrenia wrote:There's not even enough difference between most humans to qualify as being different breeds if we were dogs or cats in most cases. The differences really are mostly superficial.

It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are of actual different breeds.


With some particularly authoritarian and immoral breeding practises in time one could probably make different 'breeds' of people with wildly differing physical characteristics. Rather glad nobody has been able to even really try that though due to the intense time and resource costs involved.

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Postby Heloin » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:14 pm

Valentine Z wrote:
Albrenia wrote:There's not even enough difference between most humans to qualify as being different breeds if we were dogs or cats in most cases. The differences really are mostly superficial.

It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are actually of different breeds to one another.

Dog breed is a bit more akin to what race is. Human race is more like the difference between a black labrador and a chocolate labrador.
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:14 pm

Race is very obviously a spook.
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Postby Cisairse » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:14 pm

Race is a social construct.
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Postby Kowani » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:14 pm

Heloin wrote:
Kowani wrote:I’ll trust the actual scientists, thanks.

Im an actual anthropologist too...

Yes, but you’re a rabbit. :p


Plus, I straight-up didn’t know that.
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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:17 pm

Nouveau Quebecois wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are of actual different breeds.

Don't we... already treat different breeds of animals differently?

Nah, talking about hypothetical human breeds. Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

Heloin wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are actually of different breeds to one another.

Dog breed is a bit more akin to what race is. Human race is more like the difference between a black labrador and a chocolate labrador.


Albrenia wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are of actual different breeds.


With some particularly authoritarian and immoral breeding practises in time one could probably make different 'breeds' of people with wildly differing physical characteristics. Rather glad nobody has been able to even really try that though due to the intense time and resource costs involved.


Yep, basically all of this. I am err... I was kinda making a tongue-in-cheek remark about race and breed, because as history has taught us, we don't really have a good track record of treating each other nicely despite the superficial differences, i.e. Slavery. So imagine if one day we have actual human breeds and all that.

I apologise if the remark and an attempt at the joke was in poor taste.
Last edited by Valentine Z on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby New haven america » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:19 pm

Both, but only one of them is actually a real thing.

Race in biology denotes a subspecies or closely relate species, like the Neanderthals to Humans, Asian Elephant to African Elephant, Indian Rhino to White Rhino, etc... This is the only definition of race that is biologically a real thing.

Race as a social construct is an abuse of the concept of biological race made by and propagated by racist European conquerors and colonialists starting around the 1500's. What we think of as race in humans is actually just morphology polymorphy, subtle differences within the same species that can cause physical differences and subtle physiological differences, but doesn't impede procreation and can actually help it in most cases. Humans aren't the only ones like this either, Leopards (Tan and spotted fur) and Panthers (Black fur) are the exact same species for example and it's very common for a leopard to have panther cubs and panthers to have leopard cubs, because of course it is, they're the same species and the difference is literally only skin deep at best.

The former is a real biological concept, the latter is a social construct based on the idea of morphology polymorphy.
Last edited by New haven america on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:21 pm

New haven america wrote:Both, but only one of them is actually a real thing.

Race in biology denotes a subspecies or closely relate species, like the Neanderthals to Humans, Asian Elephant to African Elephant, Indian Rhino to White Rhino, etc... This is the only definition of race that is biologically a real thing.

Race as a social construct is an abuse of the concept of biological race made by and propagated by racist European conquers and colonialists starting around the 1500's. What we think of as race in humans is actually just morphology, subtle differences within the same species that can cause physical differences and subtle physiological differences. Humans aren't the only ones like this either, Leopards (Tan and spotted fur) and Panthers (Black fur) are the exact same species for example and it's very common for a leopard to have panthers and panthers to have leopards, because of course it is, they're the same species and the difference is literally only skin deep at best.

The former is a real biological concept, the latter is a social construct based on the idea of morphology.

You're thinking of polymorphy, not morphology (morphology refers to general physical appearance, not the differences in appearance between morphs). But yeah.
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Postby Albrenia » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:21 pm

Of course eventually we'll get posts in this thread from folks who watch some of the 'big brains' on YouTube who buy into some of the garbage one can invent when one applies enough pressure to statistics.

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Postby New haven america » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:22 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
New haven america wrote:Both, but only one of them is actually a real thing.

Race in biology denotes a subspecies or closely relate species, like the Neanderthals to Humans, Asian Elephant to African Elephant, Indian Rhino to White Rhino, etc... This is the only definition of race that is biologically a real thing.

Race as a social construct is an abuse of the concept of biological race made by and propagated by racist European conquers and colonialists starting around the 1500's. What we think of as race in humans is actually just morphology, subtle differences within the same species that can cause physical differences and subtle physiological differences. Humans aren't the only ones like this either, Leopards (Tan and spotted fur) and Panthers (Black fur) are the exact same species for example and it's very common for a leopard to have panthers and panthers to have leopards, because of course it is, they're the same species and the difference is literally only skin deep at best.

The former is a real biological concept, the latter is a social construct based on the idea of morphology.

You're thinking of polymorphy, not morphology (morphology refers to general physical appearance, not the differences in appearance between morphs). But yeah.

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Postby Bombadil » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:24 pm

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Postby Togeria » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:25 pm

Humans are inherently tribalistic, race really is just another marker for it. Doesn't work well biologically speaking but behaviorally. People tend to buddy with those who look most similar to them.
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Postby Aureumterra » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:27 pm

Heloin wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are actually of different breeds to one another.

Dog breed is a bit more akin to what race is. Human race is more like the difference between a black labrador and a chocolate labrador.

Agreed, the difference between races is nowhere close to the difference between, say, a pug and a rottweiler
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Postby Aureumterra » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:28 pm

New haven america wrote:Both, but only one of them is actually a real thing.

Race in biology denotes a subspecies or closely relate species, like the Neanderthals to Humans, Asian Elephant to African Elephant, Indian Rhino to White Rhino, etc... This is the only definition of race that is biologically a real thing.

Race as a social construct is an abuse of the concept of biological race made by and propagated by racist European conquers and colonialists starting around the 1500's. What we think of as race in humans is actually just morphology polymorphy, subtle differences within the same species that can cause physical differences and subtle physiological differences, but doesn't impeded procreation and can actually help it in most cases. Humans aren't the only ones like this either, Leopards (Tan and spotted fur) and Panthers (Black fur) are the exact same species for example and it's very common for a leopard to have panther cubs and panthers to have leopard cubs, because of course it is, they're the same species and the difference is literally only skin deep at best.

The former is a real biological concept, the latter is a social construct based on the idea of morphology polymorphy.

I think I mentioned this in the OP, but race wasn’t even considered by most as a thing until the colonial era
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Postby New haven america » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:30 pm

Heloin wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:It would be even scarier if we started treating each other differently because we are actually of different breeds to one another.

Dog breed is a bit more akin to what race is. Human race is more like the difference between a black labrador and a chocolate labrador.

A breed is actually it's own biological concept and is almost solely unique to domesticated animals.

If we were to rate these concepts from most to least differences, it'd be: Race/Subspecies->Breeds->Polymorphy (What most people consider "Race").
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Postby Purple Rats » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:32 pm

Bombadil wrote:All I know is that people with green eyes are basically superior, beyond that I'm not really bothered.


:lol2: :lol2:

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