On "deterrence" in prison, ex-convict life, and executions

[Tiltjuice]

This could be debated until the cows come home and then go out to the bar/pub.

Quite frankly, death penalty, like privacy, is highly culturally influenced. That part is never going away until there is a societal-level change, with or without conflict.

Deterrence in prison is a curious notion, though as far as I'm aware it's more likely to be enforced by inmates than the correctional system (snitches get stitches). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Singapore has what is arguably the lowest crime rate in the world, and back when I lived there, also the highest execution rate next to Saudi Arabia.

I’d say the harsh penalties inflicted there for the most minor of offenses have created a deterrent among the small, densely concentrated population. There’s simply nowhere to hide from the very efficient police force. They will find you and you will face those stiff consequences, guaranteed.

It’s harder to create that mentality in the US due to varying levels of antipathy and less trust of the police and government in general, plus the fact that it’s far easier to get away with crime due to the massive size of the country and population. My theory is that this balances out the deterrent effect that might have worked for Singapore.

Singapore also has total civil involvement, unlike the U.S. Conscription, Total Defence, not even the whole nine but the whole fifteen or eighteen. It's less about deterrence than participation. Granted you will still have the occasional oddballs like these...then what do you say about Hong Kong, similarly a former British colony and similarly one of the two often compared when it comes to most effective policing, among other parameters, but WITHOUT capital punishment?

This is ultimately one of those things that is too complicated to have a generalized answer.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Deterrence in prison is a curious notion, though as far as I'm aware it's more likely to be enforced by inmates than the correctional system (snitches get stitches).

I presume the legal system would execute not the snitches, but the people GIVING the snitches stitches. Snitches are rather useful for stitching up the holes in prison surveillance, and if some people are intimidating snitches, then society needs to look to the people doing the intimidation and say "it's your turn to be scared."

[Tiltjuice]

Deterrence in prison is a curious notion, though as far as I'm aware it's more likely to be enforced by inmates than the correctional system (snitches get stitches).

I presume the legal system would execute not the snitches, but the people GIVING the snitches stitches. Snitches are rather useful for stitching up the holes in prison surveillance, and if some people are intimidating snitches, then society needs to look to the people doing the intimidation and say "it's your turn to be scared."

Yes and no. It depends on what the ultimate goal of that society is. That in turn drives law, which in turn drives penalties as you indicate. Hence, the difference between military and civilian law, such that desertion in wartime qualifies as a capital offense (and even then not always as noted by analysis of the Eddie Slovik case), while going on strike isn't necessarily directly a capital offense, though it may as well be under certain circumstances if you think all the way through.

[Ankenland]

Implying that more socialistic countries were hit much less hard by COVID and anti-COVID measures than more capitalistic ones? It's horrible for everyone involved.

No, I am implying that the only ideal and value of society is to perpetuate the growth of the material wealth and living standard of the owners of the means of production, and that the only reason you are not send to a work camp with your fluffy liberal ideals is because that has already been tried and it turns out that you can make more money from people if you manage them in the way that you, yourself, are managed.

Philosophy is cancerous noise and post-hoc justification. The system you are in is a lot more like a dairy farm, in which you are the cow.

Basic empathy?

I will wait here patiently for you to show me a way to use basic empathy as a power source or a construction material, or at the very least, show me a way that it can be quantified to the point that I can bet on it or short it. Until then, I am not even sure what this thing is, and I am a lot more concerned with social efficiency, a demonstrably real and quantifiable thing which would be increased via the castration of pedophiles because it is extremely inexpensive and highly effective, and they could go right back to work.

It would mean that I would want my country to violate European law that would require leaving the Union in order to violate.

Well, if you live in a non-self-governing territory, why are we even discussing your impotent regional government? I certainly did not bring this up, and people who live in the United States do not constantly remind me that their state is unable to enact any meaningful policy. They just assume that I am talking about the federal government, since they make the decisions, and you should assume I am talking about the European government.

[Tiltjuice]

Implying that more socialistic countries were hit much less hard by COVID and anti-COVID measures than more capitalistic ones? It's horrible for everyone involved.

No, I am implying that the only ideal and value of society is to perpetuate the growth of the material wealth and living standard of the owners of the means of production, and that the only reason you are not send to a work camp with your fluffy liberal ideals is because that has already been tried and it turns out that you can make more money from people if you manage them in the way that you, yourself, are managed.

Philosophy is cancerous noise and post-hoc justification. The system you are in is a lot more like a dairy farm, in which you are the cow.

Basic empathy?

I will wait here patiently for you to show me a way to use basic empathy as a power source or a construction material, or at the very least, show me a way that it can be quantified to the point that I can bet on it or short it. Until then, I am not even sure what this thing is, and I am a lot more concerned with social efficiency, a demonstrably real and quantifiable thing which would be increased via the castration of pedophiles because it is extremely inexpensive and highly effective, and they could go right back to work.

It would mean that I would want my country to violate European law that would require leaving the Union in order to violate.

Well, if you live in a non-self-governing territory, why are we even discussing your impotent regional government? I certainly did not bring this up, and people who live in the United States do not constantly remind me that their state is unable to enact any meaningful policy. They just assume that I am talking about the federal government, since they make the decisions, and you should assume I am talking about the European government.

1) All societies are the same - no, nice try, I just finished debunking that

2) Philosophy is a product of culture, which drives literally everything else, I just finished pointing that out

3) Indirect. Indirect. Indirect. Or shall I start blaming your computer and the Internet for your bad arguments?

4) Ahem.

[Rojava Free State]

Wealth shouldn't have influence over the justice system.

[Diopolis]

Singapore has what is arguably the lowest crime rate in the world, and back when I lived there, also the highest execution rate next to Saudi Arabia.

I’d say the harsh penalties inflicted there for the most minor of offenses have created a deterrent among the small, densely concentrated population. There’s simply nowhere to hide from the very efficient police force. They will find you and you will face those stiff consequences, guaranteed.

It’s harder to create that mentality in the US due to varying levels of antipathy and less trust of the police and government in general, plus the fact that it’s far easier to get away with crime due to the massive size of the country and population. My theory is that this balances out the deterrent effect that might have worked for Singapore.

We also have the fact that criminals very rarely face the maximum punishment when caught. Most criminal charges are either dismissed, if the DA doesn't expect to win, or go to a plea bargain. In the remaining cases, where there is a trial, a little over 50% are convicted, and most of those don't face the maximum.

[Diopolis]

Which, morality aside, has the big problem of a fuckton of crimes all ending in the same punishment, meaning there is no deterrent stopping someone from committing these crimes if they've already committed one.

That is a great point as well, yes. The fact that in my country killing someone after raping them will literally *quintuple* your sentence is a great reason not to do it, even if you (as in the criminal) account for the fact that you're covering your tracks by doing so.

This is decent logic for something like, say, armed robbery. This is very bad logic for things like drug dealing and rape, where the odds of being convicted are extremely low, but the vast majority of murders end with a conviction.

Deterrence in prison is a curious notion, though as far as I'm aware it's more likely to be enforced by inmates than the correctional system (snitches get stitches).

I presume the legal system would execute not the snitches, but the people GIVING the snitches stitches. Snitches are rather useful for stitching up the holes in prison surveillance, and if some people are intimidating snitches, then society needs to look to the people doing the intimidation and say "it's your turn to be scared."

Actually, the historical norm would be for the legal system to execute the snitches, and turn a blind eye to the people giving them stitches as part of a deal to make them keep their other personnel in line.
Most modern western societies don't do this, because it tends to be horrendously unfair and inhumane. But up until relatively recently most states outsourced law enforcement to community figures(religious leaders, union leadership, clan/tribal elders, etc), took their word as to guilt, and applied collective punishment if things got out of hand. We still see things similar to this system in places where we don't care about humaneness- for example, prisons.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

Prison is expensive.
It would be much better for everyone if we focus on a rehabilitated ex convict accepting scociety (also maybe no masa rest for petty crimes.
Like if your addicted to a drug, go to a hospital, not jail.