by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:56 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:04 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:At the time, the fear wasn't spread of disease, (though there was some of that in the prior ebola scare) but fear of immigrants "taking their jobs."
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:And yet, it's considered more okay to travel internationally for tourist purposes than for work purposes.
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:I'm kind of left wondering... why was travel for tourism purposes ever considered better than travel for work purposes in the first place?
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:The first possible reason is the notion that a country's own citizens should have first dibs on the available jobs, and an employer shouldn't be looking to foreigners to fill the gaps. Firstly, this flies in the face of the "no one owes you a job" mantra Americans invoke in every other context.
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Secondly... aren't tourists who purchase goods and services in the host country consuming natural resources that would otherwise go to its citizens? Why is that considered more acceptable? Sure, they're paying for the goods and services...
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:just as foreign workers are paid for their labour. So why is that still considered so different?
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:I sometimes wonder if the real reason is not practical, but emotional. It is more emotionally flattering, (generally speaking; depends on the circumstances) to see someone interested in your hometown than to see someone show up to accept a job that was denied to you or taken from you. But isn't that more something to take up with that employer? Or the customers to whom they were catering?
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:I think what this crisis shows is that one country shutting its borders is not enough. Someone could easily circumvent restrictions on going from country A to B by going to country B through country C. But if in future pandemics, if every country but A co-operated on cutting off travel from "country A," they could more effectively contain pandemic spread.
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:But international co-ordination relies on better international relations. And that, in turn, relies on a more inter-connected world. I would think the authenticity of overseas jobs would be a better way to create a more inter-connected world than inauthentic tourist traps could ever be.
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:07 pm
Bear Stearns wrote:Trump was elected largely on his immigration platform. Foreign policy and trade were important, but secondary issues. Immigration was always what put him over the top. To call hostility to immigration a "fear" or a "disease" is stupid and dangerous, as we have been seeing. Turkey is using its refugee population as a weapon against the European Union.
Now Trump hasn't actually delivered fully on immigration, but at least he's got Mexico to put a halt to caravans and crack down on "asylum" seekers from Central America. God forbid what President Hillary would have done had she been faced with a couple of 300,000+ person migrant caravans.
Your neoliberal dream is detrimental to the human spirit and destroys middle classes. Tough shit, the coronavirus is bringing your worldview to an end.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:14 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:Trump was elected largely on his immigration platform. Foreign policy and trade were important, but secondary issues. Immigration was always what put him over the top. To call hostility to immigration a "fear" or a "disease" is stupid and dangerous, as we have been seeing. Turkey is using its refugee population as a weapon against the European Union.
Now Trump hasn't actually delivered fully on immigration, but at least he's got Mexico to put a halt to caravans and crack down on "asylum" seekers from Central America. God forbid what President Hillary would have done had she been faced with a couple of 300,000+ person migrant caravans.
Your neoliberal dream is detrimental to the human spirit and destroys middle classes. Tough shit, the coronavirus is bringing your worldview to an end.
Migrants from Mexico have a history of working to earn their wages.
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Those 300,000 migrants would've arrived BEFORE coronavirus
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote: and might'be been less likely to be bringing it than upper-middle-class citizens who travelled to China for leisure. Why fight that?
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:EDIT: Who are you claiming calls such hostility a disease?
by La Xinga » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:18 pm
Bear Stearns wrote:LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Migrants from Mexico have a history of working to earn their wages.
At below fair market wages, hurting Americans.LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Those 300,000 migrants would've arrived BEFORE coronavirus
They wouldn't have arrived if Trump took action sooner. They could have been stopped in Mexico.LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote: and might'be been less likely to be bringing it than upper-middle-class citizens who travelled to China for leisure. Why fight that?
Think about the sort of upper-class neoliberal businessmen who would travel to China - I'd be more than happy to jail them.LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:EDIT: Who are you claiming calls such hostility a disease?
You compared this to ebola.
by Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:20 pm
La xinga wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:
At below fair market wages, hurting Americans.
They wouldn't have arrived if Trump took action sooner. They could have been stopped in Mexico.
Think about the sort of upper-class neoliberal businessmen who would travel to China - I'd be more than happy to jail them.
You compared this to ebola.
Why did you chop up his stuff?
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:26 pm
Bear Stearns wrote:Immigrants lower job opportunities for low-skilled, low income Americans. You are parroting Koch Brothers talking points and favoring global profits over the well-being of Americans. You sicken me.
Bear Stearns wrote:Because tourists spend money while business can be extractive.
Bear Stearns wrote:Maybe in the Gilded Age (which is exactly what robber barons did when importing labor from Southern and Eastern Europe back in the day), but given that you seem to support that, there is no helping you.
Bear Stearns wrote:Because tourists are paying fair market value for what they consume, so no one loses out.
Bear Stearns wrote:Because foreigners are paid less than Americans for the same amount of production, which hurts them.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:29 pm
Bear Stearns wrote:At below fair market wages, hurting Americans.
Bear Stearns wrote:They wouldn't have arrived if Trump took action sooner. They could have been stopped in Mexico.
Bear Stearns wrote:Think about the sort of upper-class neoliberal businessmen who would travel to China - I'd be more than happy to jail them.
Bear Stearns wrote:You compared this to ebola.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Rojava Free State » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:28 pm
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by The Grims » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:22 pm
Bear Stearns wrote:Trump was elected largely on his immigration platform. Foreign policy and trade were important, but secondary issues. Immigration was always what put him over the top. To call hostility to immigration a "fear" or a "disease" is stupid and dangerous, as we have been seeing. Turkey is using its refugee population as a weapon against the European Union.
Now Trump hasn't actually delivered fully on immigration, but at least he's got Mexico to put a halt to caravans and crack down on "asylum" seekers from Central America. God forbid what President Hillary would have done had she been faced with a couple of 300,000+ person migrant caravans.
by Conglana » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:29 pm
Bear Stearns wrote:-snip-
by New haven america » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:45 pm
Genivaria wrote:I actually like the idea of freedom of movement like what the EU has, we should make it easier not harder for citizens of certain countries to come here and for ours to go there.
by Genivaria » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:46 pm
New haven america wrote:Genivaria wrote:I actually like the idea of freedom of movement like what the EU has, we should make it easier not harder for citizens of certain countries to come here and for ours to go there.
But then that would mean letting icky immigrants and foreigners come in and steal American jerbs.
by New haven america » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:48 pm
by The Lone Alliance » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:04 pm
New haven america wrote:Genivaria wrote:Yeah I don't think I'm going to convince racists and xenophobes with numbers.
Or the fact that those freedom loving Americans somehow think closing borders as much as possible isn't also super authoritarian.
Maybe we could fix this by telling them that the USSR or North Korea had/have closed borders?
by Mount Macedon » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:15 pm
Genivaria wrote:I actually like the idea of freedom of movement like what the EU has, we should make it easier not harder for citizens of certain countries to come here and for ours to go there.
by Ravennog » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:18 pm
by Ayytaly » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:20 pm
Ravennog wrote:I do hear that corruption is a problem in Latin American countries, which is a significant reason why their governments are disorderly and inefficient if they are. The US, if it hasn't already, could consider working with Latin America to fight corruption in the continent, which could possibly usher an era of reforms that could make those nations better to live in. It could be slightly idealistic, but corruption in Latin America should be noted. Please feel free to correct me on this, as I am no expert.
by Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:20 pm
Conglana wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:-snip-
On the illegal immigrant part, it has been proven that illegal immigrants do not cause terrorism. According to the Cato Institute, the chance of dying from an illegal immigrant in a terrorist attack is..zero. Grandtotal. The chance of being injured? Zero. All foreign born terrorist? While it is somewhat high from refugees, illegal immigrants make up a tiny percentage.
by Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:21 pm
New haven america wrote:Genivaria wrote:Yeah I don't think I'm going to convince racists and xenophobes with numbers.
Or the fact that those freedom loving Americans somehow think closing borders as much as possible isn't also super authoritarian.
Maybe we could fix this by telling them that the USSR or North Korea had/have closed borders?
by Ayytaly » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:26 pm
Bear Stearns wrote:Conglana wrote:On the illegal immigrant part, it has been proven that illegal immigrants do not cause terrorism. According to the Cato Institute, the chance of dying from an illegal immigrant in a terrorist attack is..zero. Grandtotal. The chance of being injured? Zero. All foreign born terrorist? While it is somewhat high from refugees, illegal immigrants make up a tiny percentage.
The CATO Institute is propaganda.
by Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:27 pm
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:28 pm
New haven america wrote:Genivaria wrote:Yeah I don't think I'm going to convince racists and xenophobes with numbers.
Or the fact that those freedom loving Americans somehow think closing borders as much as possible isn't also super authoritarian.
Maybe we could fix this by telling them that the USSR or North Korea had/have closed borders?
Rojava Free State wrote:We need to discourage illegal immigration by making the countries immigrants come from more habitable. We as individuals can do that by supporting charities and donating as much as we can.
We could also stop bombing other people.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Mount Macedon » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:29 pm
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