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Open vs. closed borders, and tourism vs. work

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Open vs. closed borders, and tourism vs. work

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:56 pm

Last US election cycle, Trump promised a border wall. It's something his supporters appeared to be obsessed with, and I suspect it played a key role in his election. Trump's popularity was just a more extreme version of the xenophobia sweeping the western world at the time. (See also: Brexit.) At the time, the fear wasn't spread of disease, (though there was some of that in the prior ebola scare) but fear of immigrants "taking their jobs."

And yet, it's considered more okay to travel internationally for tourist purposes than for work purposes.

Until now.

I'm guessing you've heard, but multiple first-world countries are now restricting entry to either citizens, residents, or people with a work permit.

I'm kind of left wondering... why was travel for tourism purposes ever considered better than travel for work purposes in the first place?

The first possible reason is the notion that a country's own citizens should have first dibs on the available jobs, and an employer shouldn't be looking to foreigners to fill the gaps. Firstly, this flies in the face of the "no one owes you a job" mantra Americans invoke in every other context. Secondly... aren't tourists who purchase goods and services in the host country consuming natural resources that would otherwise go to its citizens? Why is that considered more acceptable? Sure, they're paying for the goods and services... just as foreign workers are paid for their labour. So why is that still considered so different?

Shouldn't it have been the other way around in the first place?

I sometimes wonder if the real reason is not practical, but emotional. It is more emotionally flattering, (generally speaking; depends on the circumstances) to see someone interested in your hometown than to see someone show up to accept a job that was denied to you or taken from you. But isn't that more something to take up with that employer? Or the customers to whom they were catering?

I think what this crisis shows is that one country shutting its borders is not enough. Someone could easily circumvent restrictions on going from country A to B by going to country B through country C. But if in future pandemics, if every country but A co-operated on cutting off travel from "country A," they could more effectively contain pandemic spread.

But international co-ordination relies on better international relations. And that, in turn, relies on a more inter-connected world. I would think the authenticity of overseas jobs would be a better way to create a more inter-connected world than inauthentic tourist traps could ever be.
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:04 pm

Trump was elected largely on his immigration platform. Foreign policy and trade were important, but secondary issues. Immigration was always what put him over the top. To call hostility to immigration a "fear" or a "disease" is stupid and dangerous, as we have been seeing. Turkey is using its refugee population as a weapon against the European Union.

Now Trump hasn't actually delivered fully on immigration, but at least he's got Mexico to put a halt to caravans and crack down on "asylum" seekers from Central America. God forbid what President Hillary would have done had she been faced with a couple of 300,000+ person migrant caravans.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:At the time, the fear wasn't spread of disease, (though there was some of that in the prior ebola scare) but fear of immigrants "taking their jobs."


Immigrants lower job opportunities for low-skilled, low income Americans. You are parroting Koch Brothers talking points and favoring global profits over the well-being of Americans. You sicken me.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:And yet, it's considered more okay to travel internationally for tourist purposes than for work purposes.


Because tourists spend money while business can be extractive.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:I'm kind of left wondering... why was travel for tourism purposes ever considered better than travel for work purposes in the first place?


Se above.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:The first possible reason is the notion that a country's own citizens should have first dibs on the available jobs, and an employer shouldn't be looking to foreigners to fill the gaps. Firstly, this flies in the face of the "no one owes you a job" mantra Americans invoke in every other context.


Maybe in the Gilded Age (which is exactly what robber barons did when importing labor from Southern and Eastern Europe back in the day), but given that you seem to support that, there is no helping you.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Secondly... aren't tourists who purchase goods and services in the host country consuming natural resources that would otherwise go to its citizens? Why is that considered more acceptable? Sure, they're paying for the goods and services...


Because tourists are paying fair market value for what they consume, so no one loses out.
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:just as foreign workers are paid for their labour. So why is that still considered so different?


Because foreigners are paid less than Americans for the same amount of production, which hurts them.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:I sometimes wonder if the real reason is not practical, but emotional. It is more emotionally flattering, (generally speaking; depends on the circumstances) to see someone interested in your hometown than to see someone show up to accept a job that was denied to you or taken from you. But isn't that more something to take up with that employer? Or the customers to whom they were catering?


I agree. Jail people who hire illegal immigrants and confiscate their wealth.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:I think what this crisis shows is that one country shutting its borders is not enough. Someone could easily circumvent restrictions on going from country A to B by going to country B through country C. But if in future pandemics, if every country but A co-operated on cutting off travel from "country A," they could more effectively contain pandemic spread.


Yes.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:But international co-ordination relies on better international relations. And that, in turn, relies on a more inter-connected world. I would think the authenticity of overseas jobs would be a better way to create a more inter-connected world than inauthentic tourist traps could ever be.


You contradict yourself above.

Your neoliberal dream is detrimental to the human spirit and destroys middle classes. Tough shit, the coronavirus is bringing your worldview to an end.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:07 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:Trump was elected largely on his immigration platform. Foreign policy and trade were important, but secondary issues. Immigration was always what put him over the top. To call hostility to immigration a "fear" or a "disease" is stupid and dangerous, as we have been seeing. Turkey is using its refugee population as a weapon against the European Union.

Now Trump hasn't actually delivered fully on immigration, but at least he's got Mexico to put a halt to caravans and crack down on "asylum" seekers from Central America. God forbid what President Hillary would have done had she been faced with a couple of 300,000+ person migrant caravans.

Your neoliberal dream is detrimental to the human spirit and destroys middle classes. Tough shit, the coronavirus is bringing your worldview to an end.

Migrants from Mexico have a history of working to earn their wages. Those 300,000 migrants would've arrived BEFORE coronavirus and might'be been less likely to be bringing it than upper-middle-class citizens who travelled to China for leisure. Why fight that?

EDIT: Who are you claiming calls such hostility a disease?
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:14 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Trump was elected largely on his immigration platform. Foreign policy and trade were important, but secondary issues. Immigration was always what put him over the top. To call hostility to immigration a "fear" or a "disease" is stupid and dangerous, as we have been seeing. Turkey is using its refugee population as a weapon against the European Union.

Now Trump hasn't actually delivered fully on immigration, but at least he's got Mexico to put a halt to caravans and crack down on "asylum" seekers from Central America. God forbid what President Hillary would have done had she been faced with a couple of 300,000+ person migrant caravans.

Your neoliberal dream is detrimental to the human spirit and destroys middle classes. Tough shit, the coronavirus is bringing your worldview to an end.

Migrants from Mexico have a history of working to earn their wages.


At below fair market wages, hurting Americans.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Those 300,000 migrants would've arrived BEFORE coronavirus


They wouldn't have arrived if Trump took action sooner. They could have been stopped in Mexico.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote: and might'be been less likely to be bringing it than upper-middle-class citizens who travelled to China for leisure. Why fight that?


Think about the sort of upper-class neoliberal businessmen who would travel to China - I'd be more than happy to jail them.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:EDIT: Who are you claiming calls such hostility a disease?


You compared this to ebola.
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La xinga
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Postby La xinga » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:18 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Migrants from Mexico have a history of working to earn their wages.


At below fair market wages, hurting Americans.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Those 300,000 migrants would've arrived BEFORE coronavirus


They wouldn't have arrived if Trump took action sooner. They could have been stopped in Mexico.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote: and might'be been less likely to be bringing it than upper-middle-class citizens who travelled to China for leisure. Why fight that?


Think about the sort of upper-class neoliberal businessmen who would travel to China - I'd be more than happy to jail them.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:EDIT: Who are you claiming calls such hostility a disease?


You compared this to ebola.

Why did you chop up his stuff?
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:20 pm

La xinga wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
At below fair market wages, hurting Americans.



They wouldn't have arrived if Trump took action sooner. They could have been stopped in Mexico.



Think about the sort of upper-class neoliberal businessmen who would travel to China - I'd be more than happy to jail them.



You compared this to ebola.

Why did you chop up his stuff?


Because I'm not replying to all of it and not all of it was relevant.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:26 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:Immigrants lower job opportunities for low-skilled, low income Americans. You are parroting Koch Brothers talking points and favoring global profits over the well-being of Americans. You sicken me.

If the Koch Brothers said the sky was blue, should I expect it to be purple?

Look, the idea is that you should be competing for jobs. If there's not enough jobs for everyone, the jobs should go to the most productive. You wouldn't hold back automation over this, so why hold back competition?


Bear Stearns wrote:Because tourists spend money while business can be extractive.

Define "extractive."

Money only has as much value as we give it. Tourists spend money to consume goods and services that require labour and require natural resources. Workers receive money in exchange for providing goods and services that require their labour and natural resources. So I reiterate, why is one side of this transaction treated so differently?


Bear Stearns wrote:Maybe in the Gilded Age (which is exactly what robber barons did when importing labor from Southern and Eastern Europe back in the day), but given that you seem to support that, there is no helping you.

Maybe what in the gilded age? You implying the phrase few dare refute is unpopular?


Bear Stearns wrote:Because tourists are paying fair market value for what they consume, so no one loses out.

Market values are never "fair." Scandinavian fast food workers make several times what Americans make for providing the exact same service.

So if you were relying on the market for "fairness" nothing was lost.

And why, of all the regulations that could be placed upon the market is crossing an invisible line in the dirt the only one that's acceptable to regulate?


Bear Stearns wrote:Because foreigners are paid less than Americans for the same amount of production, which hurts them.

If the minimum wage is inadequate, raise it. If it's unenforced, enforce it. But if at the same minimum wage, person A is more profitable to hire than person B, that's down to productivity.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:29 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:At below fair market wages, hurting Americans.

Again, market wages are never "fair."


Bear Stearns wrote:They wouldn't have arrived if Trump took action sooner. They could have been stopped in Mexico.

For what? You do realize Trump has a history of employing illegal immigrants himself, correct?


Bear Stearns wrote:Think about the sort of upper-class neoliberal businessmen who would travel to China - I'd be more than happy to jail them.

I'm lower middle class. I was in China this time last year... for work, incidentally. You want to jail me too?


Bear Stearns wrote:You compared this to ebola.

:roll:

You obviously suck at reading.
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:28 pm

We need to discourage illegal immigration by making the countries immigrants come from more habitable. We as individuals can do that by supporting charities and donating as much as we can.

We could also stop bombing other people.
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Postby The Grims » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:22 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:Trump was elected largely on his immigration platform. Foreign policy and trade were important, but secondary issues. Immigration was always what put him over the top. To call hostility to immigration a "fear" or a "disease" is stupid and dangerous, as we have been seeing. Turkey is using its refugee population as a weapon against the European Union.

Now Trump hasn't actually delivered fully on immigration, but at least he's got Mexico to put a halt to caravans and crack down on "asylum" seekers from Central America. God forbid what President Hillary would have done had she been faced with a couple of 300,000+ person migrant caravans.


Hillary argued that since said caravans are only a tiny fraction of illegal immigrants one should focus on attacking the main ways they enter the country, like entering as a tourist and never leaving or by boat.

Trump instead decided to open those gates even wider.

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Postby Conglana » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:29 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:-snip-

On the illegal immigrant part, it has been proven that illegal immigrants do not cause terrorism. According to the Cato Institute, the chance of dying from an illegal immigrant in a terrorist attack is..zero. Grandtotal. The chance of being injured? Zero. All foreign born terrorist? While it is somewhat high from refugees, illegal immigrants make up a tiny percentage.

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Postby Genivaria » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:33 pm

I actually like the idea of freedom of movement like what the EU has, we should make it easier not harder for citizens of certain countries to come here and for ours to go there.
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Postby New haven america » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:45 pm

Genivaria wrote:I actually like the idea of freedom of movement like what the EU has, we should make it easier not harder for citizens of certain countries to come here and for ours to go there.

But then that would mean letting icky immigrants and foreigners come in and steal American jerbs.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:46 pm

New haven america wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I actually like the idea of freedom of movement like what the EU has, we should make it easier not harder for citizens of certain countries to come here and for ours to go there.

But then that would mean letting icky immigrants and foreigners come in and steal American jerbs.

Yeah I don't think I'm going to convince racists and xenophobes with numbers.
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Postby New haven america » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:48 pm

Genivaria wrote:
New haven america wrote:But then that would mean letting icky immigrants and foreigners come in and steal American jerbs.

Yeah I don't think I'm going to convince racists and xenophobes with numbers.

Or the fact that those freedom loving Americans somehow think closing borders as much as possible isn't also super authoritarian.

Maybe we could fix this by telling them that the USSR or North Korea had/have closed borders?
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:04 pm

New haven america wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Yeah I don't think I'm going to convince racists and xenophobes with numbers.

Or the fact that those freedom loving Americans somehow think closing borders as much as possible isn't also super authoritarian.

Maybe we could fix this by telling them that the USSR or North Korea had/have closed borders?

Nope. Tried that, they pointed out that the USSR and North Korea made a wall to keep people in.
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Postby Mount Macedon » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:15 pm

Genivaria wrote:I actually like the idea of freedom of movement like what the EU has, we should make it easier not harder for citizens of certain countries to come here and for ours to go there.

Coronavirus has killed that particular dream of capital.
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Postby Ravennog » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:18 pm

I do hear that corruption is a problem in Latin American countries, which is a significant reason why their governments are disorderly and inefficient if they are. The US, if it hasn't already, could consider working with Latin America to fight corruption in the continent, which could possibly usher an era of reforms that could make those nations better to live in. It could be slightly idealistic, but corruption in Latin America should be noted. Please feel free to correct me on this, as I am no expert.
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Postby Ayytaly » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:20 pm

Ravennog wrote:I do hear that corruption is a problem in Latin American countries, which is a significant reason why their governments are disorderly and inefficient if they are. The US, if it hasn't already, could consider working with Latin America to fight corruption in the continent, which could possibly usher an era of reforms that could make those nations better to live in. It could be slightly idealistic, but corruption in Latin America should be noted. Please feel free to correct me on this, as I am no expert.


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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:20 pm

Conglana wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:-snip-

On the illegal immigrant part, it has been proven that illegal immigrants do not cause terrorism. According to the Cato Institute, the chance of dying from an illegal immigrant in a terrorist attack is..zero. Grandtotal. The chance of being injured? Zero. All foreign born terrorist? While it is somewhat high from refugees, illegal immigrants make up a tiny percentage.


The CATO Institute is propaganda.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:21 pm

New haven america wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Yeah I don't think I'm going to convince racists and xenophobes with numbers.

Or the fact that those freedom loving Americans somehow think closing borders as much as possible isn't also super authoritarian.

Maybe we could fix this by telling them that the USSR or North Korea had/have closed borders?


The USSR only had two genders and didn't fund Islamic terrorists. Maybe they were on to something.
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Ayytaly
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Postby Ayytaly » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:26 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Conglana wrote:On the illegal immigrant part, it has been proven that illegal immigrants do not cause terrorism. According to the Cato Institute, the chance of dying from an illegal immigrant in a terrorist attack is..zero. Grandtotal. The chance of being injured? Zero. All foreign born terrorist? While it is somewhat high from refugees, illegal immigrants make up a tiny percentage.


The CATO Institute is propaganda.

Like all things you disagree upon
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:27 pm

Ayytaly wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
The CATO Institute is propaganda.

Like all things you disagree upon


Leftists now defending far-right, Koch-funded propaganda?
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:28 pm

New haven america wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Yeah I don't think I'm going to convince racists and xenophobes with numbers.

Or the fact that those freedom loving Americans somehow think closing borders as much as possible isn't also super authoritarian.

Maybe we could fix this by telling them that the USSR or North Korea had/have closed borders?

Guilt by association, on its own, is hollow.

Also, we're only on the first page and we're already giving up on the notion of constructive debate? Let's go wherever this debate takes us, and if they don't learn something from it, we will.


Rojava Free State wrote:We need to discourage illegal immigration by making the countries immigrants come from more habitable. We as individuals can do that by supporting charities and donating as much as we can.

We could also stop bombing other people.

That's another option. But I'm kind of left wondering if embracing the influx of people willing to work harder than citizens, by making it easier to immigrate legally, would more efficiently benefit both them and citizens.

Or would that just do more harm than good by depriving Latin America of such people? Does Latin America's circumstances bring out the resilience in most of the people there or mostly just the ones who tend to come to the USA?
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Mount Macedon
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Posts: 141
Founded: Mar 17, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mount Macedon » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:29 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Ayytaly wrote:Like all things you disagree upon


Leftists now defending far-right, Koch-funded propaganda?

On open borders all the intellectual heavy lifting is done by the libertarian right. "Left" arguments just derive from their work.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

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