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Using Donations To Make Decisions

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Using Donations To Make Decisions

Postby Xerographica » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:03 am

Yes, my favorite topic but, in my defense... it has been a while? So does that mean that perhaps I should provide some backstory?

A long time ago I had the idea that people should be free to directly allocate their taxes. Most of the people that I shared this idea with said it was a really bad idea. Because everybody would overlook important things. Evidently this doesn't happen as much with the current system because we elect politicians who are good at knowing, or figuring out, what's important.

Eventually it dawned on me that taxpayers are essentially subscribers... so then I started making the case that Netflix subscribers should be free to directly allocate their subscription fees. Nobody objected that Netflix subscribers don't know which shows are important. Instead their objection was that Netflix already knows which shows are important to subscribers. Because... views/votes.

Except if democracy and markets would rank shows exactly the same, then why even have markets? I made a few attempts here on NS to test and compare how differently things, such as books, are ranked by voting and donating. There were some complications, and nobody was really convinced, but we did raise some money for NS at least. I wonder how much...

/backstory

I participated in a couple crypto websites that had lots of potential to demonstrate how useful markets are compared to the alternatives... but both websites went in the wrong directions. So I abandoned those ships. Abandoning a ship is a really ineffective way of improving its direction.

Anyways, as some of you know, my second favorite topic is plants. I really love them... epiphytes, aroids, orchids, epiphytes, Begonias, Aloes and so on. Last year my friend and I started a local plant group on Facebook. Our group was public but when we hit two or three hundred members, some people said that they wanted our group to be private. A poll was created and more people voted for private than public. But when I conducted a poll using donations, nobody donated for private. Then again, only two people donated for public. Just before I posted the donation poll one of our members started a private group, which many of the pro-private people joined. They abandoned my ship. Heh. Creating a ship on FB is soooo easy. More ships means more directions.

A couple months ago I auctioned a plant in my group. It was our very first auction, and then some other members started auctioning their plants. Quite a few people from FB marketplace ended up joining the group and now there are over 500 members.

One of the new members from marketplace would bid really high, and win, but he never responded to the sellers. Not sure what he was thinking but naturally it pissed some members off. They privately told me that I should kick him from the group. I replied that the only way that anybody would be kicked from the group is via donations. It never came to that though because somebody somewhat scolded him publicly and he hasn't bid on anything since.

If you are expecting me to share something conclusive about markets versus not-markets, sorry. But I am kinda in a position to use a decently sized group to test the effectiveness of markets.

Pretend that I'm relatively close to proving that markets are far more effective than the alternatives. And then just before I manage to do so, we go extinct as a result of the coronavirus. I'm guessing that it isn't going to wipe us out, but who knows it might. Or maybe an asteroid might.

We can go extinct right before finally figuring out that markets can drastically reduce our chances of going extinct. That's so crazy. The way I see it, if the US government became a market then we'd have way more ships, in this case government organizations, which would go in way more directions, so we'd find much better directions in far less time. Obviously I'm not any good at articulating why markets are better than the alternatives. Sorry.

Maybe Fermi's paradox is that it takes too long for civilizations to become economically enlightened.

**************************

[edit] I created a new thread to share a practical idea for easily using Facebook groups to test and compare different steering mechanisms. The thread was merged with this one and added to the 11th page. I'm copying and pasting it here...

**************************

All political and economic issues boil down to group decisions. For example, group decisions in a market are made by individual spending. When you buy toilet paper you’re helping the group to decide how much toilet paper to supply. And when you donate to the Red Cross you’re helping the group to decide how much disaster relief to supply.

My theory is that there can only be one best system for making group decisions, given that group decisions all have the same goal… group benefit maximization. Democracy and dictatorships are very different systems, so they can’t be equally effective at maximizing group benefit.

On Facebook I’m a member of nearly 100 groups (mostly about plants) and all of them are dictatorships, except for the plant group that I started, which is a market. We use donations to make decisions.

How is it possible that out of nearly 100 groups that not a single one is a democracy? Why are we so accepting of dictatorships? Wouldn’t these groups make much better decisions if they were democracies? It’s certainly easy enough to create polls.

One thing about FB groups is that if you don’t like the decisions made by a group’s dictator, you can simply leave it and start your own group. Starting a group on FB is ridiculously easy.

So here’s an idea. Let’s create FB groups to test and compare different ways of making group decisions. We can have FB groups for direct democracy, representative democracy, socialism, communism and all the other isms. We can simultaneously participate in and get a feel for numerous different systems.

Will it become clear which system is the best? Let’s find out! If you create a group let me know and I’ll add it to this list…

Decisions By Democracy
Decisions By Donations

Questions, concerns?
Last edited by Xerographica on Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Decisions By Donations - Facebook group for us to test the effectiveness of using donations to make group decisions.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:05 am

And like the coronavirus... this usual pandemic begins.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:14 am

Oh, I remember this topic coming around now and again.

I'd say no to people deciding what to allocate their tax dollars to since that would inevitably end up with an even larger disregard for poor areas then we already have.

I'll be interested to see what fresher eyes to this topic have to say though.

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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:19 am

Albrenia wrote:Oh, I remember this topic coming around now and again.

I'd say no to people deciding what to allocate their tax dollars to since that would inevitably end up with an even larger disregard for poor areas then we already have.

I'll be interested to see what fresher eyes to this topic have to say though.


Taxpayers care less about poor people than politicians do? In my facebook plant group my friend and I sometimes try and predict what is gonna be the highest bid on an auctioned plant. Our guesses are often way off. Well yeah, if it was so easy to correctly predict the demand for things, whether it is a Begonia or welfare, then markets wouldn't be so useful.
Last edited by Xerographica on Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
Decisions By Donations - Facebook group for us to test the effectiveness of using donations to make group decisions.

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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:36 pm

They did vote. With their feet.
In other words, ignoring the majority's request to stop being annoyed by someone wasting their time and telling them you'd get rid of him if they paid you to, led to them leaving your group.

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Mount Macedon
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Postby Mount Macedon » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:38 pm

The free reign of the markets is over, the state is back. Wake up.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:41 pm

So, what are we to discuss?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:54 pm

A long time ago I had the idea that people should be free to directly allocate their taxes.


And it's a fucking dumb one at that.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:29 pm

Katganistan wrote:They did vote. With their feet.
In other words, ignoring the majority's request to stop being annoyed by someone wasting their time and telling them you'd get rid of him if they paid you to, led to them leaving your group.


The people who left my plant group did so because they weren't willing to pay for the group to be private. Yes, them abandoning my ship is foot voting. First they voted with a poll click and when that didn't work they voted with their feet.

But it's not like you argue that Max should make every NS decision via democracy. If I said that NS should be private, I'm pretty sure you'd counter with that this is Max's group and he can do whatever he likes with it. And if we don't like what he does then we are free to abandon his ship.

So as far as this NS ship is concerned, your view is that...

dictatorship > democracy

Except I doubt you want the US ship, or whatever country your in, to be a dictatorship. So dictators are better at steering small ships than big ships? We distrust the majority with small ships but trust them with big ships? I don't see the logic.

But it's not like you've ever been in a ship that was steered by donations. Why is that? Because steering with donations has been tested and disproved? Nope. Nobody has even thought to test it. Well, nearly nobody.

Ideally you should be excited by the prospect of safely testing a new steering mechanism.
Decisions By Donations - Facebook group for us to test the effectiveness of using donations to make group decisions.

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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:34 pm

Galloism wrote:So, what are we to discuss?

Whether using donations to make group decisions is better than the alternatives.
Decisions By Donations - Facebook group for us to test the effectiveness of using donations to make group decisions.

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:56 pm

Didn't we disprove this? Yes we did.

Will Xero accept it? No he won't.

Is this thread pointless? Absolutely.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:59 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:Didn't we disprove this? Yes we did.

Will Xero accept it? No he won't.

Is this thread pointless? Absolutely.


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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:10 pm

Xerographica wrote:Maybe Fermi's paradox is that it takes too long for civilizations to become economically enlightened.

Enlightened isn't the word I'd use for your economic ideas.
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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:20 pm

there's nothing like a new Xero thread while you're self-isolating to convince you that we're all in Hell and time is a flat circle
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:56 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:So, what are we to discuss?

Whether using donations to make group decisions is better than the alternatives.

I think that’s easy to answer.

Is 50 Shades of Gray a better book than Wealth of Nations?

If so, donation voting is better than regular voting. If not, then regular voting is better than donation voting.

Discuss.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Woudlora
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Woudlora » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:08 pm

Senkaku wrote:there's nothing like a new Xero thread while you're self-isolating to convince you that we're all in Hell and time is a flat circle

Gotta love NS!
Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:So, what are we to discuss?

Whether using donations to make group decisions is better than the alternatives.

Has a system like the one you’ve described ever existed, and do you think one like it will ever exist, in your opinion?
I'm in college, seeking knowledge!

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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:18 am

Woudlora wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Whether using donations to make group decisions is better than the alternatives.

Has a system like the one you’ve described ever existed, and do you think one like it will ever exist, in your opinion?

The Libertarian Party (LP) uses donations to decide their convention theme. But they don't use donations to decide convention location, date or speakers. Or whether to have a convention in the first place. So I doubt that the LP truly grasps that this system is more likely steer their ship in the direction that is most beneficial to their members.

If it is the case that donating is the best way for groups to make decisions, then it seems inevitable that society will realize this. All of society's ships being steered in far more beneficial directions will drastically reduce the chances of human extinction.
Decisions By Donations - Facebook group for us to test the effectiveness of using donations to make group decisions.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:38 am

The fuck?
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:41 am

This?

No.

Making donations is not how decisions should be made.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:11 am

Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:So, what are we to discuss?

Whether using donations to make group decisions is better than the alternatives.

We already have this, it's called lobbying.
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:44 am

Oh, Xero. Right now, you and your terrible, terrible philosophy was just what I needed to smile.

Xerographica wrote:Anyways, as some of you know, my second favorite topic is plants. I really love them... epiphytes, aroids, orchids, epiphytes, Begonias, Aloes and so on. Last year my friend and I started a local plant group on Facebook. Our group was public but when we hit two or three hundred members, some people said that they wanted our group to be private. A poll was created and more people voted for private than public. But when I conducted a poll using donations, nobody donated for private. Then again, only two people donated for public. Just before I posted the donation poll one of our members started a private group, which many of the pro-private people joined. They abandoned my ship. Heh. Creating a ship on FB is soooo easy. More ships means more directions.


And this bit is hilarious.
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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:33 am

Kowani wrote:The fuck?

What, you've never seen this show before?
Xerographica wrote:
Woudlora wrote:Has a system like the one you’ve described ever existed, and do you think one like it will ever exist, in your opinion?

The Libertarian Party (LP) uses donations to decide their convention theme. But they don't use donations to decide convention location, date or speakers. Or whether to have a convention in the first place. So I doubt that the LP truly grasps that this system is more likely steer their ship in the direction that is most beneficial to their members.

If it is the case that donating is the best way for groups to make decisions, then it seems inevitable that society will realize this. All of society's ships being steered in far more beneficial directions will drastically reduce the chances of human extinction.

Nobody really cares what the theme of the Libertarian Party convention is, that's why choosing it is a glorified charity fundraiser.

But notice they leave the important stuff like logistics to people who know what they're doing...
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:36 am

Ah yes, because we need even more power to be concentrated in the hands of the wealthy.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:40 am

Stellar Colonies wrote:This?

No.

Making donations is not how decisions should be made.


Not individual decisions, but group decisions. Like where to go for the senior class trip. Or whether to cancel an event.
Decisions By Donations - Facebook group for us to test the effectiveness of using donations to make group decisions.

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:49 am

The Holy Therns wrote:Oh, Xero. Right now, you and your terrible, terrible philosophy was just what I needed to smile.

Nice :)

The Holy Therns wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Anyways, as some of you know, my second favorite topic is plants. I really love them... epiphytes, aroids, orchids, epiphytes, Begonias, Aloes and so on. Last year my friend and I started a local plant group on Facebook. Our group was public but when we hit two or three hundred members, some people said that they wanted our group to be private. A poll was created and more people voted for private than public. But when I conducted a poll using donations, nobody donated for private. Then again, only two people donated for public. Just before I posted the donation poll one of our members started a private group, which many of the pro-private people joined. They abandoned my ship. Heh. Creating a ship on FB is soooo easy. More ships means more directions.


And this bit is hilarious.

I kinda remember that I wanted you to smell the flowers of Laelia albida. And there was some food that I was saddened to hear that you had never tried before. Tamales?
Decisions By Donations - Facebook group for us to test the effectiveness of using donations to make group decisions.

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