NATION

PASSWORD

The myth called "Human Rights"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Volnotov
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1680
Founded: Mar 27, 2010
Ex-Nation

The myth called "Human Rights"

Postby Volnotov » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:33 pm

Why are people always whining about their civil rights?

About their privacy, their right to have freedom of speech, their right to do whatever they wan't, the right to be treated ethical and humane, ect.

I believe it is time for this nonsense to end.

Ofcourse, right now you may think "Nonsense? Those are my god damn rights you fascist!"

Well, I have a question for you.

Who says you have those rights?

Who or what decides that? :roll:

Is it us Humans?

Well, I'll present the following question to you.

"If all the people on the world would stop believing there was gravity, would gravity cease to exist?"

:roll:

Why am I posting such a silly question you may think, well the reason is that from my experience believe start to believe that human rights is a fundemental law of nature, just like gravity.

But I believe that is flawed.

I don't believe we have rights just because the media and politicians keep telling us that.

If we would all believe tomorow that the Earth is flat, then the Earth certainly wouldn't suddenly turn into a flat disk.

Human Rights don't exist, and they certainly not something like gravity or other laws of nature.

It's a thing made and invented by Human beings.

But where do these so called "Human rights" come from?

1 Word - Religion.

Think of the 10 commandments.

Or the Codex of Hammurabi in ancient mesopotamia.

And now, onto the question.

Who decides we have "rights"?

Well I would say - no one.

From this point of view I would say we have no rights, neither do we have duties.

Ofcourse, but now we live in a society.

And I believe that in order for a society to survive, and mankind in general we should make laws - to protect human from exploitation for example. And give people duties and responsibilities. Like paying your tax, going to work, don't kill other people, ect.

But I do not believe we have rights, and I can't understand how there are still those that believe believe we do - with, in my opinion having no proof whatsoever.

But ofcourse, believe what you will.

Because who says you are not allowed too?

:p
What is your political orientation?
Participate now in the NS Political Orietnation Poll!

Political Spectrum Quiz Results

"There are those people that believe that we are all equal, that every person should recieve an equal piece of the cake regardless of what they contributed to it.
I believe in a fair society, were those that contributed the most to the cake recieve the biggest share. Maybe that is not *equal*, but sure it is fair."

User avatar
EvilDarkMagicians
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13456
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby EvilDarkMagicians » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:35 pm

So what exactly is your point?

User avatar
Volnotov
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1680
Founded: Mar 27, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Volnotov » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:37 pm

EvilDarkMagicians wrote:So what exactly is your point?


That people stop bitching about their non-existant human rights and stop trying to hamper the progress of human society because they can't put the greater good above their pathetic self interests and above their primitive animal instincts.
What is your political orientation?
Participate now in the NS Political Orietnation Poll!

Political Spectrum Quiz Results

"There are those people that believe that we are all equal, that every person should recieve an equal piece of the cake regardless of what they contributed to it.
I believe in a fair society, were those that contributed the most to the cake recieve the biggest share. Maybe that is not *equal*, but sure it is fair."

User avatar
Traceynia
Envoy
 
Posts: 206
Founded: Oct 30, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Traceynia » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:37 pm

I don't think it's a particularly earth shattering notion that human rights are constructs made by humans. There are some posters who would say that there are objective natural rights that we all have, but I think they are the exception.

User avatar
Lackadaisical2
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50831
Founded: Mar 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:38 pm

EvilDarkMagicians wrote:So what exactly is your point?

Seems clear cut form the first half anyway- natural rights do not exist.

This goes against the universal objective nature of the universe. ;)
The Republic of Lanos wrote:Proud member of the Vile Right-Wing Noodle Combat Division of the Imperialist Anti-Socialist Economic War Army Ground Force reporting in.

User avatar
Lackadaisical2
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50831
Founded: Mar 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:39 pm

Volnotov wrote:
EvilDarkMagicians wrote:So what exactly is your point?


That people stop bitching about their non-existant human rights and stop trying to hamper the progress of human society because they can't put the greater good above their pathetic self interests and above their primitive animal instincts.

lawl. Self interest may be primitive and animal, but those are hardly pejoratives in this case.
The Republic of Lanos wrote:Proud member of the Vile Right-Wing Noodle Combat Division of the Imperialist Anti-Socialist Economic War Army Ground Force reporting in.

User avatar
Takaram
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8973
Founded: Feb 23, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Takaram » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:39 pm

I don't think there are many people who would say that there are some kind of pre-set natural rights that we all have, simply because we are human. There are, however, rights that are afforded to people by the graces of civilization and society. These are the rights people argue for.

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:39 pm

There are different philosophies of rights. Some people feel there is no such thing as "natural rights" others feel that "rights" are a product of society.

There are absolutely "human rights" simply because that is a term we as humans have found useful for describing something and as humans we have absolute control over language and what it means. If everyone decided tomorrow to start referring to blue as "a particularly stinky smell" then overnight blue would mean "a particularly stinky smell" because us humans decided that is what it means.

Likewise rights are whatever we want them to mean.

And no one can stop us! Can you handle the freedom? ;)
Last edited by Natapoc on Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Central Slavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Nov 05, 2009
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Central Slavia » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:40 pm

I agree with every damn word of this post.
You, sir are a genius!
Kosovo is Serbia!
Embassy Anthem Store Facts

Glorious Homeland wrote:
You would be wrong. There's something wrong with the Americans, the Japanese are actually insane, the Chinese don't seem capable of free-thought and just defer judgement to the most powerful strong man, the Russians are quite like that, only more aggressive and mad, and Belarus? Hah.

Omnicracy wrote:The Soviet Union did not support pro-Soviet governments, it compleatly controled them. The U.S. did not controle the corrupt regiems it set up against the Soviet Union, it just sugested things and changed leaders if they weer not takeing enough sugestions

Great Nepal wrote:Please stick to OFFICIAL numbers. Why to go to scholars,[cut]

User avatar
Lackadaisical2
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50831
Founded: Mar 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:41 pm

Central Slavia wrote:I agree with every damn word of this post.
You, sir are a genius!

This is how I generally check to see if something is wrong :D
The Republic of Lanos wrote:Proud member of the Vile Right-Wing Noodle Combat Division of the Imperialist Anti-Socialist Economic War Army Ground Force reporting in.

User avatar
Great Nepal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28677
Founded: Jan 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Nepal » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:42 pm

Volnotov wrote:Why are people always whining about their civil rights?

About their privacy, their right to have freedom of speech, their right to do whatever they wan't, the right to be treated ethical and humane, ect.

I believe it is time for this nonsense to end.

Ofcourse, right now you may think "Nonsense? Those are my god damn rights you fascist!"

Well, I have a question for you.

Who says you have those rights?

Who or what decides that? :roll:

Is it us Humans?

Well, I'll present the following question to you.

"If all the people on the world would stop believing there was gravity, would gravity cease to exist?"

:roll:

Why am I posting such a silly question you may think, well the reason is that from my experience believe start to believe that human rights is a fundemental law of nature, just like gravity.

But I believe that is flawed.

I don't believe we have rights just because the media and politicians keep telling us that.

If we would all believe tomorow that the Earth is flat, then the Earth certainly wouldn't suddenly turn into a flat disk.

Human Rights don't exist, and they certainly not something like gravity or other laws of nature.

It's a thing made and invented by Human beings.

But where do these so called "Human rights" come from?

1 Word - Religion.

Think of the 10 commandments.

Or the Codex of Hammurabi in ancient mesopotamia.

And now, onto the question.

Who decides we have "rights"?

Well I would say - no one.

From this point of view I would say we have no rights, neither do we have duties.

Ofcourse, but now we live in a society.

And I believe that in order for a society to survive, and mankind in general we should make laws - to protect human from exploitation for example. And give people duties and responsibilities. Like paying your tax, going to work, don't kill other people, ect.

But I do not believe we have rights, and I can't understand how there are still those that believe believe we do - with, in my opinion having no proof whatsoever.

But ofcourse, believe what you will.

Because who says you are not allowed too?

:p


First time in History of mankind, I agree with you. Who gave the humans to determine there rights?
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


User avatar
Volnotov
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1680
Founded: Mar 27, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Volnotov » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:42 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
EvilDarkMagicians wrote:So what exactly is your point?

Seems clear cut form the first half anyway- natural rights do not exist.

This goes against the universal objective nature of the universe. ;)


Please elaborate.

Also, I wonder if human rights per definition don't exist.

Aren't the studies of human rights and ethics obsolete? :roll:
What is your political orientation?
Participate now in the NS Political Orietnation Poll!

Political Spectrum Quiz Results

"There are those people that believe that we are all equal, that every person should recieve an equal piece of the cake regardless of what they contributed to it.
I believe in a fair society, were those that contributed the most to the cake recieve the biggest share. Maybe that is not *equal*, but sure it is fair."

User avatar
Makaar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1572
Founded: Nov 20, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Makaar » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:42 pm

Coin has two sides. What gives the government the right to force people to do things for "the greater good"? It's PRECISELY what gives people their "human rights" - in other words, it's the society at the time saying "right, now this is what we believe".

Best way to do it is just to treat everyone equally, and in the best manner possible - i.e. treat them the way they'd most like to be treated, and stop them from treating others in a way they wouldn't like to be treated. That's what human rights and government is.
Makaar is ranked 323rd in the world for Most Dedicated Public Healthcare.
Makaar is ranked 272nd in the world for Largest Welfare Programs (per capita).
Makaar is ranked 408th in the world for Nicest Citizens.

Like what you see? Get an embassy in Makaar

User avatar
Treznor
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7343
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Treznor » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Volnotov wrote:
EvilDarkMagicians wrote:So what exactly is your point?


That people stop bitching about their non-existant human rights and stop trying to hamper the progress of human society because they can't put the greater good above their pathetic self interests and above their primitive animal instincts.

And why do you believe that the greater good can't be served by defining and protecting "human rights"? Wasn't it "human rights" that enabled an entire class of people to rise up from slavery and become creative contributors to society instead of just menial workers? Wasn't it "human rights" that enabled half of all citizens to participate in government and join the other half in academic, industrial and political pursuits? I could go on, but my point is that the fight to bring inequality to an end seems to have had some very positive results toward the greater good.

User avatar
Qwcasd
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1930
Founded: Oct 04, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Qwcasd » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:44 pm

Volnotov wrote:Why are people always whining about their civil rights?

About their privacy, their right to have freedom of speech, their right to do whatever they wan't, the right to be treated ethical and humane, ect.

I believe it is time for this nonsense to end.

Ofcourse, right now you may think "Nonsense? Those are my god damn rights you fascist!"

Well, I have a question for you.

Who says you have those rights?

Who or what decides that? :roll:

Is it us Humans?

Well, I'll present the following question to you.

"If all the people on the world would stop believing there was gravity, would gravity cease to exist?"

:roll:

Why am I posting such a silly question you may think, well the reason is that from my experience believe start to believe that human rights is a fundemental law of nature, just like gravity.

But I believe that is flawed.

I don't believe we have rights just because the media and politicians keep telling us that.

If we would all believe tomorow that the Earth is flat, then the Earth certainly wouldn't suddenly turn into a flat disk.

Human Rights don't exist, and they certainly not something like gravity or other laws of nature.

It's a thing made and invented by Human beings.

But where do these so called "Human rights" come from?

1 Word - Religion.

Think of the 10 commandments.

Or the Codex of Hammurabi in ancient mesopotamia.

And now, onto the question.

Who decides we have "rights"?

Well I would say - no one.

From this point of view I would say we have no rights, neither do we have duties.

Ofcourse, but now we live in a society.

And I believe that in order for a society to survive, and mankind in general we should make laws - to protect human from exploitation for example. And give people duties and responsibilities. Like paying your tax, going to work, don't kill other people, ect.

But I do not believe we have rights, and I can't understand how there are still those that believe believe we do - with, in my opinion having no proof whatsoever.

But ofcourse, believe what you will.

Because who says you are not allowed too?

:p






Your argument is nonsense. It people stopped believing gravity, the world is flats, etc tomorrow, then yes, those things would be true. If everyone thought that, then everyone would act as if those facts were true. So it would be like they were true. There is no such thing as truth.
GDP
Fan Boy of:RFK
Also a Big Fan of This:The Great Society
Wiki
The Four Freedoms
Freedom of Expression
Freedom of Worship
Freedom from Want
Freedom from Fear
American Liberal, And Proud!
The world must be made safe for democracy.
When asked if he believed in the right to bear arms: "No, I believe in the right to arm bears."
"One of the greatest casualties of the war in Vietnam is the Great Society... shot down on the battlefield of Vietnam."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Everyman A King, but No One Wears a Crown"
"Whoever seeks to set one religion against another seeks to destroy all religion."
Franklin D. Roosevelt
"Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me." Mathew 25:4

User avatar
Flameswroth
Senator
 
Posts: 4773
Founded: Sep 05, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Flameswroth » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:44 pm

Volnotov wrote:
EvilDarkMagicians wrote:So what exactly is your point?


That people stop bitching about their non-existant human rights and stop trying to hamper the progress of human society because they can't put the greater good above their pathetic self interests and above their primitive animal instincts.

Cool.

So what's the practical application? Surely there is a real life example of a scenario wherein insistence upon the existence of rights is somehow hampering our progress as a species. I, for one, cannot think of an example where this is the case. Are there any?
Czardas wrote:Why should we bail out climate change with billions of dollars, when lesbians are starving in the streets because they can't afford an abortion?

Reagan Clone wrote:What you are proposing is glorifying God by loving, respecting, or at least tolerating, his other creations.

That is the gayest fucking shit I've ever heard, and I had Barry Manilow perform at the White House in '82.



User avatar
Central Slavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Nov 05, 2009
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Central Slavia » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:45 pm

Makaar wrote:Coin has two sides. What gives the government the right to force people to do things for "the greater good"? It's PRECISELY what gives people their "human rights" - in other words, it's the society at the time saying "right, now this is what we believe".

.


The power they have - the greater good is good for many, so it unites the many in support of those who decide it.
Kosovo is Serbia!
Embassy Anthem Store Facts

Glorious Homeland wrote:
You would be wrong. There's something wrong with the Americans, the Japanese are actually insane, the Chinese don't seem capable of free-thought and just defer judgement to the most powerful strong man, the Russians are quite like that, only more aggressive and mad, and Belarus? Hah.

Omnicracy wrote:The Soviet Union did not support pro-Soviet governments, it compleatly controled them. The U.S. did not controle the corrupt regiems it set up against the Soviet Union, it just sugested things and changed leaders if they weer not takeing enough sugestions

Great Nepal wrote:Please stick to OFFICIAL numbers. Why to go to scholars,[cut]

User avatar
Ravea
Senator
 
Posts: 3622
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Ravea » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:45 pm

I'm sure if someone had a gun to your head or a knife to your throat because you look a certain way or was torturing you because you came from a certain ethnic group you'd be begging for your human rights.
~Omnia mutantur, nihil interit~

User avatar
Central Slavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Nov 05, 2009
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Central Slavia » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:46 pm

Flameswroth wrote:
Volnotov wrote:
Cool.

So what's the practical application? Surely there is a real life example of a scenario wherein insistence upon the existence of rights is somehow hampering our progress as a species. I, for one, cannot think of an example where this is the case. Are there any?


Feeding an useless population of serious criminals instead of exterminating them like the vermin of society they are and using the money saved to improve people's lives through science and welfare
Kosovo is Serbia!
Embassy Anthem Store Facts

Glorious Homeland wrote:
You would be wrong. There's something wrong with the Americans, the Japanese are actually insane, the Chinese don't seem capable of free-thought and just defer judgement to the most powerful strong man, the Russians are quite like that, only more aggressive and mad, and Belarus? Hah.

Omnicracy wrote:The Soviet Union did not support pro-Soviet governments, it compleatly controled them. The U.S. did not controle the corrupt regiems it set up against the Soviet Union, it just sugested things and changed leaders if they weer not takeing enough sugestions

Great Nepal wrote:Please stick to OFFICIAL numbers. Why to go to scholars,[cut]

User avatar
Central Slavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Nov 05, 2009
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Central Slavia » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:48 pm

Ravea wrote:I'm sure if someone had a gun to your head or a knife to your throat because you look a certain way or was torturing you because you came from a certain ethnic group you'd be begging for your human rights.


I would be begging for a kevlar scarf (first case) or a means to escape and fry his hide in second case.
Not only to mention the fact that human rights would not help me a rat's ass width.
Kosovo is Serbia!
Embassy Anthem Store Facts

Glorious Homeland wrote:
You would be wrong. There's something wrong with the Americans, the Japanese are actually insane, the Chinese don't seem capable of free-thought and just defer judgement to the most powerful strong man, the Russians are quite like that, only more aggressive and mad, and Belarus? Hah.

Omnicracy wrote:The Soviet Union did not support pro-Soviet governments, it compleatly controled them. The U.S. did not controle the corrupt regiems it set up against the Soviet Union, it just sugested things and changed leaders if they weer not takeing enough sugestions

Great Nepal wrote:Please stick to OFFICIAL numbers. Why to go to scholars,[cut]

User avatar
Takaram
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8973
Founded: Feb 23, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Takaram » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:48 pm

Volnotov wrote:
EvilDarkMagicians wrote:So what exactly is your point?


That people stop bitching about their non-existant human rights and stop trying to hamper the progress of human society because they can't put the greater good above their pathetic self interests and above their primitive animal instincts.


What is the point of developing society if we are all submissive drones of the state? Did you take a page from 1984 or something?

User avatar
Self--Esteem
Minister
 
Posts: 3245
Founded: Mar 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Self--Esteem » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:49 pm

I agree mostly.

I do not think you have the right to be well treated. However, nature gave us the right to live and breath and to care for ourselves, so it should be somehow clear that as long as we live in an industrial society, no one may initiate force against each other. Killing for the sake of killing is immoral and condemnable. It fiercely disregards nature, in that no living, conscious creature should end the life of others without a reason.

The only reasons to kill are either to secure ones own survival (i. e. someone tries to kill you and you simply act for your own protection) or to feed from the flesh (obviously does not apply here, as we are speaking of inter-human behaviour).

User avatar
Volnotov
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1680
Founded: Mar 27, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Volnotov » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:49 pm

Treznor wrote:
Volnotov wrote:
EvilDarkMagicians wrote:So what exactly is your point?


That people stop bitching about their non-existant human rights and stop trying to hamper the progress of human society because they can't put the greater good above their pathetic self interests and above their primitive animal instincts.

And why do you believe that the greater good can't be served by defining and protecting "human rights"? Wasn't it "human rights" that enabled an entire class of people to rise up from slavery and become creative contributors to society instead of just menial workers? Wasn't it "human rights" that enabled half of all citizens to participate in government and join the other half in academic, industrial and political pursuits? I could go on, but my point is that the fight to bring inequality to an end seems to have had some very positive results toward the greater good.


I have the feeling the "human rights" argument is no longer used to protect minorities from opression and exploitation, I have the feeling people use the "human rights" argument for their own self interests.

They use it as a justification of hate speech,

They use it as a justification to hamper the progress of humanity, for example by opposing genetic modification, nanotechnology and biotechnology out of fear, even though that those technologies could maybe one day end human suffering and introduce and era of peace and prosperity,

They use it as a justiication to sevearly damage and hamper national secuirity, for example by trying to ban CCTV cameras, ID cards, Biometric passports, ect. because they claim to have the "right to privacy".

This whole "Human Rights" thing has gotten completely out of control in my opinion.

This has in my opinion no longer to do with freedom or protection of minorities.
What is your political orientation?
Participate now in the NS Political Orietnation Poll!

Political Spectrum Quiz Results

"There are those people that believe that we are all equal, that every person should recieve an equal piece of the cake regardless of what they contributed to it.
I believe in a fair society, were those that contributed the most to the cake recieve the biggest share. Maybe that is not *equal*, but sure it is fair."

User avatar
The Galirandi
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 06, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Galirandi » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:50 pm

There are no natural human rights. Human rights are just a construct created by human societies in order to keep humans from doing horrible, horrible things to one another.

I always thought they were a bit of a waste of time though, don't you? *sharpens skinning knife*

User avatar
The Rich Port
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38088
Founded: Jul 29, 2008
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Rich Port » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:52 pm

So... are you going to argue with several billion people who all believe they are born into the world with certain rights? As entertaining as that might be to watch, please don't try it. You will loose, miserably.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A m e n r i a, Aldygast, Amary, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Betoni, Diuhon, Emotional Support Crocodile, Eskaai, Fartsniffage, Grinning Dragon, Gun Manufacturers, Haganham, Heloin, Ifreann, Neon Lunar Eclipse, Northern Seleucia, Port Caverton, Spireen, The Huskar Social Union, The Nihilistic view, The United Penguin Commonwealth, Thomasi, Tillania, TTs Treasure, Yasuragi

Advertisement

Remove ads