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What the heck to do about student debt

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

WHAT dO WE DO ABOUT THE COST OF A COLLEGE EDUCATION IN AMERICA (why am i shouting)

Nothing, everything is fine
16
15%
Abolish private schools have the state give free college education to all
14
13%
we don't really need to abolish the private schools, just give free public college to all
23
21%
free public college to all including room and board
16
15%
Give a set amount of money to each student (either by voucher or cash) while they are in school
9
8%
Cap the amount a student can borrow in any one semester
7
6%
Free public community colleges to those who want it
12
11%
The Hasselhoff shall set you free
11
10%
 
Total votes : 108

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Ethel mermania
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What the heck to do about student debt

Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:41 pm

Based on a long and winding post by Alien Space Bats, which I shall reprint most of without permission below: (probably a bad idea as I believe Mr. Bats is a practicing attorney).

But I think it’s an interesting topic in its own self and should be talked about in its own thread, and I don’t recall talking about this in a while

What do you Denizens of Nation states, think should be done about the college student debt issue, and lets start with what Mr. Bats has to say


Alien Space Bats....

On the issue of college, my view is that having the government pay everybody's tuition is a bad idea on so very many counts. For one thing (as I suggested), it really doesn't actually deal with the problem of making college affordable for as many people as possible. For another, it places the independence of academia at risk.

In many ways, it's like health care: If government starts paying for everything, then government will eventually want to dictate the essentials of whatever it is that they're buying. This already happens with Medicare: I struggled for a couple of years in trying to get my wife a fully-electric hospital bed when Medicare would only pay for one on which the hi-lo function was powered by a crank at the foot of the bed. Medicare's reasoning was that having the hi-lo function be powered by the same electric motor that powers everything else is a convenience for the caregiver and not a medical necessity; it was only after fumbling around through regulations and rulings in an effort to justify giving the patient (in this case, my wife) control over the hi-lo function that I ultimately found out that Medicare won't pay for a fully-electric bed because it doesn't actually recognize a fully-electric bed as being something that actually exists (they have no category for it, so they can't ay for such a bed, even if you could actually argue that the patient needed one!).

So imagine where we'll be 15-20 years after we've created a program that pays for everybody's college education. I can see public universities restricted to a set of rigidly-defined academic careers, each built around a rigidly-defined curriculum, with rigidly-defined deliverables within each rigidly-defined class that makes up a part of this curriculum. Academic freedom will be gone; academic innovation will be gone; and politics will be pervasive throughout the entire structure ("No, you can't take courses on 'Lesbian Feminism in 19th Century Literature' — but 'Post-Colonialist Global Perspectives in 20th Century Literature' is mandatory for all liberal arts students, so you'll need to take that"). No, if there's something that government should stay away from, its curriculum — and that probably rules out having it pay for tuition.

So my idea for nearly four years has been that government should pay every student a per diem living stipend based on their estimates of the cost of living in the community in which they go to school (the government already has a lot of the data needed to calculate these per diems as is) such that 80-100% of their living expenses are covered; grants, scholarships, and student loans can then cover books and tuition. This would have the advantage of allowing colleges to offer more "full-ride" scholarships, as those "full rides" would no longer have to cover room and board (or more than a fraction of room and board). I think a good conservative estimate here is that every current "full-ride" scholarship could easily become 3-4 such scholarships if room and board were taken off the table.

This would also put government in the position of dictating and/or regulation housing and dietary standards for students if (or more likely, when) the inevitable extension of payments into regulation of the thing being paid for finally came to pass. Indeed, this is something government already does with housing and nutritional assistance, and in extremis would likely involve nothing more intrusive than rent control in student neighborhoods (which many college towns already have under local authority).

Couple this with some of Elizabeth Warren's ideas for reducing interest on student loans and/or letting students refinance such loans in the same way that homeowners are able to refinance mortgages, along with some of the other ideas that are out there for making student loans more manageable, and college could very easily become more affordable across the board.

There are other advantages to such an approach. Current tax law allows for books and tuition to be written off on income tax returns, and makes effectively exempts scholarships from being treated as taxable income; unfortunately, the same cannot be said for room and board. Thus, under current tax law, when a student gets a "full-ride" scholarship that pays for room and board, technically the part that pays for room and board is considered taxable income. Having government pay for room and board eliminates this problem.

I understand that there would be a huge amount of push-back against "paying welfare" to "freeloading" college students so that they can "live for free", but it makes sense that anyone studying full-time to advance their educational prospects can't work full-time to support themselves at the same time; what we'd basically be doing is supporting students while they study in order for them to be able to focus on their education. It's not ridiculous to expect a student to take on some debt while this happens as a last resort, so long as we make sure than the final result isn't odious, as it is now. Thus, we'd be putting students in the position of (at worst) borrowing for the cost of books and tuition, and then having the most affordable terms possible for handling that debt afterward.

Thank you Mr. bats.


I think that there is a pretty decent amount of meat to what mr bats has to say in a lot of different areas.


I think he is right that education will be treated the way medicine is currently and that is generally a bad thing. As I have mentioned many many times before my objection to obama care has nothing to do with the insurance market angle, but how it has changed and standardized the practice of medicine and medical record keeping.

I think the idea we can just cancel current debt is absurd, the government doesn’t own any of that debt it is owned by the lending companies, I think that needs to be cleaned up and rates should be adjusted, but I don’t think the feds should be handing more money to the banks.

I think providing room and board at college and university is just too expensive, and impractical, there will still be no incentive for private schools to make an attempt to contain their costs.

My solution is to make public state run community colleges free. For 3 years let everyone get a 2 year degree.

Community colleges are local and run by the county and are accessible to residents in the towns.
No housing allowance is needed as they already live in the county the school is based,
We give them 3 years for the degree so if they have to work part time or take care of a sick relative they have the time to do so.

I pay for this via federal block grants to the states, that way the feds can not change the local curriculum and those schools are still only answerable to whoever accredits them, and it keeps the bureaucracy down. If a state does not want to provide free tuition they can opt out, but they don’t get the money.

Poll with hasselhoff option coming:
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Krasny-Volny
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:35 pm

In the US, the quality of anything tends to go down the cheaper it is. People pay for a quality product. Those that can afford better get a better product.

In my experience the cheaper the product, the more inferior it is. Free stuff most of all.

I have a deep, nagging suspicion that free college in the US will devalue higher education. Quality of everything will plummet.

Stipends aren’t a terrible idea though.
Last edited by Krasny-Volny on Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby US-SSR » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:48 pm

At the very least cancel all existing student debt. The One Percent (TOP) is trying to starve public education (along with public everything else) so the proles will have to take their community college certificates and low-wage, low-benefit, nonunion, fire-at-will jobs, keep their heads down and not make trouble, play the lotto and continue generating profit for TOP to continue to abscond with. Best would be free public four-year college for all.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:59 pm

US-SSR wrote:At the very least cancel all existing student debt. The One Percent (TOP) is trying to starve public education (along with public everything else) so the proles will have to take their community college certificates and low-wage, low-benefit, nonunion, fire-at-will jobs, keep their heads down and not make trouble, play the lotto and continue generating profit for TOP to continue to abscond with. Best would be free public four-year college for all.

The debt is not owned by the Gov't. It is owned by private lenders. Are they suppose to eat the loss?
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Russoslava
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Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:06 pm

No one forced anyone to go to college, maybe before going to college, you should save up money. You don't need a college degree to get a good-paying job with benefits. I work at a local supermarket chain and worked my way up from bagger, to Office Clerk to Front End manager and make some decent money at it. 14.50 an hour. I went from Part-time, to flex before getting a full-time position and with a full-time position, I got Health Insurance, paid time off (sick, vacation, etc), and a pretty nice retirement plan. My cousin works as a school custodian and makes 16 dollars an hour, paid time off, health insurance and fully paid retirement, in only five years of working there. We both only have high school diplomas and I was a high school drop out and only recently got my diploma (HiSet if you're wondering). If you put the effort in you get rewarded if it's a good company. Knock it off with this, "minimum wage, minimum effort" sh*t and you'll go far. As a person who gets a say who gets promoted, why would I want to reward someone who isn't putting in effort when I could give it to the guy that goes above and beyond, Picks up extra shifts, willing to come in early, rarely calls out and works his ass off and is happy to be there?

In conclusion, you don't need to go to college to be successful and no one forced you to go to college if you did so own up to your decision and suffer the effects from it cause YOU made that decision not anyone else.

Ps. A majority of the population is in debt and all if not a majority of those who are considered "1%" are in a lot of debt.
Last edited by Russoslava on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Nakena » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:07 pm

They shouldn required to repay until they start making (sufficient) money from whatever they studied.
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:10 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:In my experience the cheaper the product, the more inferior it is. Free stuff most of all.


More expensive isn't always better objectively speaking. Paying more usually gets you something better, but only to a certain point. Sometimes something is more expensive just because of the brand. Similarly, it makes no sense to spend top dollar for something that is state of the art, when the very next year it'll be down in price by 50% or more, via it being not so new.

It can be hard to find what price point has the best in terms of value, but you usually won't go wrong spending a bit more, but not spending too much either.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:11 pm

Nakena wrote:They shouldn required to repay until they start making (sufficient) money from whatever they studied.


^This. It's useful in that it's more like a tax rather than a loan. What would be more useful though is if it were more like tuition fees in the EU (not including Britain which has the aforementioned pseudo-tax system) where I've heard students complaining about having to pay €400.
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Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:11 pm

Nakena wrote:They shouldn required to repay until they start making (sufficient) money from whatever they studied.


How about you don't get a degree in a field over-saturated by other people because they all rushed to fill a void in a certain field and flooded with people. Or, don't take a student loan out till you have a plan and prospects in place. Again no one forced these people to go to college or take a loan, they made their beds now they have to lay in them.
Last edited by Russoslava on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:17 pm

Russoslava wrote:
Nakena wrote:They shouldn required to repay until they start making (sufficient) money from whatever they studied.


How about you don't get a degree in a field over-saturated by other people because they all rushed to fill a void in a certain field and flooded with people. Or, don't take a student loan out till you have a plan and prospect in place.


That kinda implies that scholarships and bursaries are the only responsible way to gain higher education.

Again no one force these people to go to college or take a loan, they made their beds now they have to lay in them.


Yeah screw them! Trying to get ahead in life by taking a loan (tax) out for something that their parents were able to have for free. The entitled bastards...
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:19 pm

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Russoslava wrote:
How about you don't get a degree in a field over-saturated by other people because they all rushed to fill a void in a certain field and flooded with people. Or, don't take a student loan out till you have a plan and prospect in place. Again no one force these people to go to college or take a loan, they made their beds now they have to lay in them.


That kinda implies that scholourships are the only responsible way to gain higher education.


No, you can also save your money like a fiscally responsible person. Anyway, let pretend this happens, what happens to those who did save up money and went to college? Do they get reimbursed? What about the father that grind away for 20 years, went without, gave up his time and money to put his kids through college, what about him?

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:25 pm

Russoslava wrote:How about you don't get a degree in a field over-saturated by other people because they all rushed to fill a void in a certain field and flooded with people. Or, don't take a student loan out till you have a plan and prospects in place. Again no one forced these people to go to college or take a loan, they made their beds now they have to lay in them.


The K-12 system arguably bears some responsibility in misleading people into going to college after high school by default. There was more than enough myth spread by teachers/guidance counselors and the like, that the only path to a decent job is more education (that costs lots of money) when clearly, it often doesn't result in being qualified for a job thats in demand by the time you've finished because everyone else is doing the same.
Last edited by Saiwania on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:27 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Russoslava wrote:How about you don't get a degree in a field over-saturated by other people because they all rushed to fill a void in a certain field and flooded with people. Or, don't take a student loan out till you have a plan and prospects in place. Again no one forced these people to go to college or take a loan, they made their beds now they have to lay in them.


The K-12 system arguably bears some responsibility in misleading people into going to college after high school by default. There was more than enough myth spread by teachers/guidance counselors and the like, that the only path to a decent job is more education (that costs lots of money) when clearly, it often doesn't result in being qualified for a job thats in demand by the time you've finished because everyone else is doing the same.


Exactly, As I said in my previous post, I don't have a college degree, hell I only recently got my HiSet and I have a decent job, making decent money and great benefits. To an employer, Effort is more important than a degree in certain fields.

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:28 pm

Russoslava wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
That kinda implies that scholourships are the only responsible way to gain higher education.


No, you can also save your money like a fiscally responsible person.


In the UK a typical university course costs around £27,000. If they have that sort of money laying around then they probably don't need to go to university in the first place unless they're trying to get into a protected profession such as a medical doctorate or law.

Anyway, let pretend this happens, what happens to those who did save up money and went to college? Do they get reimbursed?


Why would they be reimbursed? Because their peers got it for free? In that case then the person who saved up their money wouldn't have spent it in the first place because it's free.

What about the father that grind away for 20 years, went without, gave up his time and money to put his kids through college, what about him?


What about him? When he was his son's age the university education was free (albiet less accessible) and house prices were a lot cheaper too.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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When anybody preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against each other through class warfare, race hatred, or religious intolerance, you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives.


Charlie Brooker wrote:It's spider season. Every year, right about now, thousands of the godless eight-legged bastards emerge from the bowels of hell (or the garden, whichever's nearest) with the sole intention of tormenting humankind. Spider season is like a live-action version of the videogame Doom.

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Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:32 pm

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Russoslava wrote:
No, you can also save your money like a fiscally responsible person.


In the UK a typical university course costs around £27,000. If they have that sort of money laying around then they probably don't need to go to university in the first place unless they're trying to get into a protected profession such as a medical doctorate or law.

Anyway, let pretend this happens, what happens to those who did save up money and went to college? Do they get reimbursed?


Why would they be reimbursed? Because their peers got it for free? In that case then the person who saved up their money wouldn't have spent it in the first place because it's free.

What about the father that grind away for 20 years, went without, gave up his time and money to put his kids through college, what about him?


What about him? When he was his son's age the university education was free (albiet less accessible) and house prices were a lot cheaper too.


This is a post about student debt which implies that people already have debt since college isn't free. Again, if we forgive student debt which people have said they're going to do, what happens to those who were responsible and paid their way into college without the need for student loans?

And for the Father, you don't account for inflation, a Hundred dollars like thirty years ago was a lot more then what's it worth now. On paper, it's less but thirty years ago it was still expensive. So a smart and loving father that wanted to give his kids opportunities he couldn't afford and so grind away for 20 years so his kids can go to college.
Last edited by Russoslava on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Nakena » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:33 pm

Russoslava wrote:
How about you don't get a degree in a field over-saturated by other people because they all rushed to fill a void in a certain field and flooded with people. Or, don't take a student loan out till you have a plan and prospects in place. Again no one forced these people to go to college or take a loan, they made their beds now they have to lay in them.


While I don't disagree you otherwise, it remains that without a degree people sometimes classified as being unhireable subhuman trash on the job market.

Of course thats nonsense, too. But thats how it is.

Besides there's no point in a lot of people just getting broke and destroyed economically by debt. It just means they are never going to be independent economic actors and in the end they must live off welfare which in turn is tax payers money. So basically a total fuck up.
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Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:38 pm

Nakena wrote:
Russoslava wrote:
How about you don't get a degree in a field over-saturated by other people because they all rushed to fill a void in a certain field and flooded with people. Or, don't take a student loan out till you have a plan and prospects in place. Again no one forced these people to go to college or take a loan, they made their beds now they have to lay in them.


While I don't disagree you otherwise, it remains that without a degree people sometimes classified as being unhireable subhuman trash on the job market.

Of course thats nonsense, too. But thats how it is.

Besides there's no point in a lot of people just getting broke and destroyed economically by debt. It just means they are never going to be independent economic actors and in the end they must live off welfare which in turn is tax payers money. So basically a total fuck up.


You are aware a majority of those who are "1%" are in debt right, like a lot? Businesses fail, markets crash, investments go sour and they lose money but still recover and make money.
Last edited by Russoslava on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby The Republic of Fore » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:40 pm

Nothing, you're the one who took the loan It's your problem to pay it off.

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:41 pm

Russoslava wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
In the UK a typical university course costs around £27,000. If they have that sort of money laying around then they probably don't need to go to university in the first place unless they're trying to get into a protected profession such as a medical doctorate or law.



Why would they be reimbursed? Because their peers got it for free? In that case then the person who saved up their money wouldn't have spent it in the first place because it's free.



What about him? When he was his son's age the university education was free (albiet less accessible) and house prices were a lot cheaper too.


This is a post about student debt which implies that people already have debt since college isn't free. Again, if we forgive student debt which people have said they're going to do, what happens to those who were responsible and paid their way into college without the need for student loans?


Again, you seem to be implying that not having £27,000 in your bank account at the age of 18 is 'irresponsible'. Why?

As for your question; I don't know, what does happen to them? There is the issue that they had to pay all that money only for others to not have to pay anything, but if that's a reason to not improve anything then you're basically advocating for state-sanctioned schadenfreude.

And for the Father, you don't account for inflation, a Hundred dollars like thirty years ago was a lot more then what's it worth now. On paper, it's less but thirty years ago it was still expensive. So a smart and loving father that wanted to give his kids opportunities he couldn't afford and so grind away for 20 years so his kids can go to college.


I'm well aware of what inflation is and that's exactly why the situation is so sad; house prices cost a lot more even after accounting for inflation.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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When anybody preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against each other through class warfare, race hatred, or religious intolerance, you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives.


Charlie Brooker wrote:It's spider season. Every year, right about now, thousands of the godless eight-legged bastards emerge from the bowels of hell (or the garden, whichever's nearest) with the sole intention of tormenting humankind. Spider season is like a live-action version of the videogame Doom.

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Postby Nakena » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:42 pm

Russoslava wrote:
Nakena wrote:
While I don't disagree you otherwise, it remains that without a degree people sometimes classified as being unhireable subhuman trash on the job market.

Of course thats nonsense, too. But thats how it is.

Besides there's no point in a lot of people just getting broke and destroyed economically by debt. It just means they are never going to be independent economic actors and in the end they must live off welfare which in turn is tax payers money. So basically a total fuck up.


You are aware a majority of those who are "1%" are in debt right, like a lot? Businesses fail, markets crash, investments go sour and they lose money but still recover and make money.


I haven't talked about the 1% even.

I have talked about individual people being broke and unable to continue as economic actors. Its something different than a big company or so being in debt from investitions and so on. (though sometimes that can crusht hem too)
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Russoslava
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Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:44 pm

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Russoslava wrote:
This is a post about student debt which implies that people already have debt since college isn't free. Again, if we forgive student debt which people have said they're going to do, what happens to those who were responsible and paid their way into college without the need for student loans?


Again, you seem to be implying that not having £27,000 in your bank account at the age of 18 is 'irresponsible'. Why?

As for your question; I don't know, what does happen to them? There is the issue that they had to pay all that money only for others to not have to pay anything, but if that's a reason to not improve anything then you're basically advocating for state-sanctioned schadenfreude.


Who says you had to go to college right out of high school? I don't know about you lads across the pond but here in America, there isn't an age cut off for college. How about you wait a few years and save your money, and explore other options before going to college.
Last edited by Russoslava on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Founded: Jun 11, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:46 pm

Nakena wrote:
Russoslava wrote:
You are aware a majority of those who are "1%" are in debt right, like a lot? Businesses fail, markets crash, investments go sour and they lose money but still recover and make money.


I haven't talked about the 1% even.

I have talked about individual people being broke and unable to continue as economic actors. Its something different than a big company or so being in debt from investitions and so on. (though sometimes that can crusht hem too)


That's not how it works, Just because you're in debt doesn't mean you have to live on welfare and collect food stamps. Hell, I'm in debt and I'm doing pretty good.

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SD_Film Artists
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Father Knows Best State

Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:47 pm

Russoslava wrote:
And for the Father, you don't account for inflation, a Hundred dollars like thirty years ago was a lot more then what's it worth now. On paper, it's less but thirty years ago it was still expensive. So a smart and loving father that wanted to give his kids opportunities he couldn't afford and so grind away for 20 years so his kids can go to college.


I'm well aware of what inflation is and that's exactly why the situation is so sad; house prices cost a lot more even after accounting for inflation.
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Russoslava
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Founded: Jun 11, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Russoslava » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:49 pm

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Russoslava wrote:
And for the Father, you don't account for inflation, a Hundred dollars like thirty years ago was a lot more then what's it worth now. On paper, it's less but thirty years ago it was still expensive. So a smart and loving father that wanted to give his kids opportunities he couldn't afford and so grind away for 20 years so his kids can go to college.


I'm well aware of what inflation is and that's exactly why the situation is so sad; house prices cost a lot more even after accounting for inflation.

I won't disagree with you that the housing market is shit but that's a different monster, I was lucky enough to buy my house from my Great Grand Parents before they passed away. Anyway, let say free college happens tomorrow who pays for it? The Government? How does the Government make money? taxes. Your taxes will basically become you paying off not just your student debt but other peoples as well.
Last edited by Russoslava on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nakena
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Capitalizt

Postby Nakena » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:49 pm

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Nakena wrote:They shouldn required to repay until they start making (sufficient) money from whatever they studied.


^This. It's useful in that it's more like a tax rather than a loan. What would be more useful though is if it were more like tuition fees in the EU (not including Britain which has the aforementioned pseudo-tax system) where I've heard students complaining about having to pay €400.


It's not going to happen though because ideology. The posters here in this thread are the best example:

One side is: Le evil 1% evil capitalist elites. All their fault.. COMMUNISM NOW!
the other is: Fuck you i got mine. MUH FREES!
Last edited by Nakena on Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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