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Are people born evil?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Can life turn a good person evil?

Yes
105
48%
No
52
24%
No opinion
8
4%
Maybe?
17
8%
Evil isn't real, and your morality is minimal
35
16%
 
Total votes : 217

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Rojava Free State
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Are people born evil?

Postby Rojava Free State » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:20 pm

These last few days have been a very poignant and eye opening week for me. I've seen a lot of stuff in a new way and a lot of different things have happened to people I know, and while I won't go into detail about what went down, I'll tell you it wasn't good. I've been really thinking about evil recently. As a rather poetic and philosophical individual, I constantly find myself in deep thought about various age old questions and tonight I asked myself a very important one. "What kind of world makes monsters out of men?" More importantly, does the environment make a person a sick and twisted maniac or are they born this way? If the life one leads warps them into a violent and dangerous individual, how long does it take? And can they be rehabilitated?

Some would say you can't change a Leopard's spots while others claim you can teach an old dog new tricks. Tonight I wanna really debate the issues and get down to the nitty gritty of what turns a good man evil. So come all you fellow thinkers and romantics, because it's that time again. So without further ado, let's get it started.
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:23 pm

Everyone is born with a varying potential to be evil due to a host of different reasons. All of them can be remedied.
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Exxosia
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Postby Exxosia » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:28 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:"What kind of world makes monsters out of men?"

This one. A world purposefully made to create monsters.

Rojava Free State wrote:More importantly, does the environment make a person a sick and twisted maniac or are they born this way?

In most cases, it is a product of the social systems (or lack thereof). Born monsters tend to get weeded out, die young, get incarcerated, or go into politics.

Rojava Free State wrote:If the life one leads warps them into a violent and dangerous individual, how long does it take?

It depends on how much good is in their lives that can slow down the rot. In my experience, about a decade is an average.

Rojava Free State wrote:And can they be rehabilitated?.

Only if they wholly see their monstrousness and want to change, but they rarely ever do and any suggestion that they be better will usually be met with them martyring their own evil.

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Adersfield
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Postby Adersfield » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:32 pm

some people are born evil but other times it's good people turned evil.. like an event happened and they just snap...

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:38 pm

There's no answer to this that's not incredibly reductionist.

But what the hell. Short version: People are a kind of ape. They're capable of a lot of things, but consistency and emotional stability aren't among them.
Last edited by Neanderthaland on Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:48 pm

No, but many people are born with poor impulse control, a poor temperament, and obsessive personalities, all of which leads to evil behavior.
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:05 pm

Well, putting aside the whole issue of where morality even comes from...

People change, in different ways for different reasons. One person might react a certain way to one event, while another person might react an entirely different way. Nobody is completely immune from being twisted in a certain direction, but there are varying degrees of how long it takes.

I think the important thing to do when it comes to people changing, for better or for worse, is to try to be able to put yourself in their shoes, no matter how repulsive it may seem. You don't have to see someone as a good person or sympathetic to empathize with them, but keeping in mind that nobody is literally a monster, we're all just humans acting out our nature in different ways, can help you to see where things went wrong for them and how to avoid those things for yourself and others in the future. It feels good to just dismiss certain people as being wild immoral animals, because we think that if they operate by some system that's alien to us, then there's no way we could become like them; but when you take the steps to understand that on some level they are just like you, you're able to actually take the steps necessary to ensure you don't become like them. It's an uncomfortable process — many people are quick to mistake it for sympathizing with or excusing evil — but I think it's a healthy one that makes us more self-aware about our own behavior.

There's a good quote I like to keep in mind when dealing with examination of beliefs and behavior: "Being wrong feels exactly like being right." i.e., Never assume that badness is universally "obvious," because clearly it isn't to everyone, and who's to say you're not one of those exceptions?

This might be a good place to practice.
Last edited by Giovenith on Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:08 pm

I wouldn't even say that any people are evil. But, actions that we consider evil come from the social system. How someone is born has nothing to do with their actions. That's why we have consciences.
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Postby Tiltjuice » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:11 pm

It's the world that you see for yourself which makes you a monster or lets you continue being human. Arguably, therefore, it's more the environment. Struggling against (or even better, aligning yourself with) the environment is where the wolf/sheepdog/sheep trilemma starts to come into play.

You can rehabilitate someone, it's just a matter of how much effort you are willing to spend in doing so, scaling with how early you start. Rationalism plays a huge part in this.
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Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich
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Postby Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:19 pm

It really depends a lot on what you define as being "evil". Psychopaths, the natural subject of this thread, are indeed born. But should they be considered evil the moment they come out of the womb? Or would you rely on their future actions rather than mentality to decide if they're evil or not? Answer's honestly up to you.
Last edited by Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich on Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Bombadil » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:30 pm

Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich wrote:It really depends a lot on what you define as being "evil". Psychopaths, the natural subject of this thread, are indeed born. But should they be considered evil the moment they come out of the womb? Or would you rely on their future actions rather than mentality to decide if they're evil or not? Answer's honestly up to you.


Not really, we can recognise the conditions and alleviate them.

There was an interesting case of a child prone to outbursts of violence. It had led to a pattern between parents and child, this pattern can become entrenched so the original cause is no longer the trigger but the pattern itself is the trigger.

Actually, when they recorded the child's sleep, they discovered that the house pets were constantly climbing into the child's bed, pushing him out and generally disrupting his sleep. He was tired and cranky.

However just keeping the pets out of his room wasn't enough because of the pattern, so they also had to rework they way they reacted to any outburst. In a short time he was a perfectly normal kid.

Even those with brain disorders that create a serious lack of empathy can be managed given the issue is recognised and reacted to appropriately. The main issue can be that frustration cycles the condition into a pattern of violence that is removed from the original condition.
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Postby Tiltjuice » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:32 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich wrote:It really depends a lot on what you define as being "evil". Psychopaths, the natural subject of this thread, are indeed born. But should they be considered evil the moment they come out of the womb? Or would you rely on their future actions rather than mentality to decide if they're evil or not? Answer's honestly up to you.


Not really, we can recognise the conditions and alleviate them.

There was an interesting case of a child prone to outbursts of violence. It had led to a pattern between parents and child, this pattern can become entrenched so the original cause is no longer the trigger but the pattern itself is the trigger.

Actually, when they recorded the child's sleep, they discovered that the house pets were constantly climbing into the child's bed, pushing him out and generally disrupting his sleep. He was tired and cranky.

However just keeping the pets out of his room wasn't enough because of the pattern, so they also had to rework they way they reacted to any outburst. In a short time he was a perfectly normal kid.

Even those with brain disorders that create a serious lack of empathy can be managed given the issue is recognised and reacted to appropriately. The main issue can be that frustration cycles the condition into a pattern of violence that is removed from the original condition.


Would you happen to have the link? or any other source
Last edited by Tiltjuice on Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby -Astoria » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:33 pm

I'm gonna say no to that.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:39 pm

Tiltjuice wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Not really, we can recognise the conditions and alleviate them.

There was an interesting case of a child prone to outbursts of violence. It had led to a pattern between parents and child, this pattern can become entrenched so the original cause is no longer the trigger but the pattern itself is the trigger.

Actually, when they recorded the child's sleep, they discovered that the house pets were constantly climbing into the child's bed, pushing him out and generally disrupting his sleep. He was tired and cranky.

However just keeping the pets out of his room wasn't enough because of the pattern, so they also had to rework they way they reacted to any outburst. In a short time he was a perfectly normal kid.

Even those with brain disorders that create a serious lack of empathy can be managed given the issue is recognised and reacted to appropriately. The main issue can be that frustration cycles the condition into a pattern of violence that is removed from the original condition.


Would you happen to have the link? or any other source


Not really but if you can find this book you can read up the general subject regards this particular issue.
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Tiltjuice
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Postby Tiltjuice » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:40 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Tiltjuice wrote:
Would you happen to have the link? or any other source


Not really but if you can find this book you can read up the general subject regards this particular issue.


Ta.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:42 pm

Nobody is born evil in my opinion, since evil requires a choice to do the wrong thing, and when we're born we can't choose pretty much anything.

Keeping in mind that morality is probably entirely subjective, I'm obviously talking about what *I* consider 'evil', since that's all I know about.

As to the question of the poll, yes, it is entirely possible for someone good to turn to evil, or for a 'bad' person to choose to turn their life around and be good. It's rather more complex in practise, but the possibility remains.

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Sadakoyama
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Postby Sadakoyama » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:51 pm

"Evil" is just a name we give to behaviours we don't approve of. Morality is just the subjective collection of judgments we are at first taught by our parents, teachers, and culture, and later those judgements we make for ourselves based on these and our subsequent experiences.

So people cant "be" good or evil; they do things we like and things we don't like. If someone takes something that doesn't belong to them it is reductionist to say they "are" a thief, because there are a whole host of reasons that may have precipitated that action and one action does not define the sum total of a person. The same is true for "evil". Even Hitler has his admirers; people who think the "evil" things he did were not just acceptable, but right and justified and "good".
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Grimmsland
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Postby Grimmsland » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:25 pm

Rojava Free State wrote: Some would say you can't change a Leopard's spots while others claim you can teach an old dog new tricks. Tonight I wanna really debate the issues and get down to the nitty gritty of what turns a good man evil. So come all you fellow thinkers and romantics, because it's that time again. So without further ado, let's get it started.


That's complicated. My instinct is yes - some people are inherently evil but that makes me concerned and confused about everything because what does that mean if it's possible and not only possible but destined!? Does it mean a roll of the dice, Yin Yang or demiurge!? The first two I can wrap my mind around and comfort myself with well.. if it's a roll of the dice then there is always the possibility that after that souls death the evil contained can be switched out for not-evil(or extinguished). If it's Yin Yang and for there to be good there must be evil or for light to exist there must be dark, or for physical there must be metaphysical etc then it might not always be fair but at least you can be comforted in knowing good and light etc will always be present. But if it's a demiurge.. a ruler that causes evil. Now we have a problem. :(

I voted Maybe.
Last edited by Grimmsland on Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:21 am

Yes we are.

Babies are 100 percent self centered.

You give a baby unlimited power they’ll use it to kill and crush everyone and everything instantly to get what they want, zero hesitation

Be glad babies are born small and weak

...

We have to be brainwashed/conditioned to be away from Evil. Others eventually relapse into it. But it’s the default state.
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Postby Neanderthaland » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:29 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Yes we are.

Babies are 100 percent self centered.

You give a baby unlimited power they’ll use it to kill and crush everyone and everything instantly to get what they want, zero hesitation

Be glad babies are born small and weak

...

We have to be brainwashed/conditioned to be away from Evil. Others eventually relapse into it. But it’s the default state.

If you give a baby unlimited power, all that will happen is tits, cuddles, and clean assholes. Because that's what babies want.

It's unlikely they would crush or kill anything. Except possibly under enormous breasts.
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:28 am

That strongly depends on what you consider evil.
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Postby Andsed » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:33 am

Not really. Some may be more inclined to doing bad acts but being evil is more a result of conditions one were raised in and ones circumstances in life than any kind of inherent evil. And quite honestly the idea of inherent evil is ridiculous to me
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:38 am

No. Unless people are saying selfish = evil.
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:39 am

All people are born with the capability for good and evil. How they are taught often determines what path they will take. An evil teacher is more often likely to produce an evil student.
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