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Are non-unanimous felony convictions really a "fair trial?"

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Cisairse
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Are non-unanimous felony convictions really a "fair trial?"

Postby Cisairse » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:58 pm

In the United States, citizens have a Constitutional right to a fair trial....kinda.
Amendment VI wrote:In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Notice how nowhere in this amendment is the language "fair trial" actually used. Instead, the 6th Amendment gives us some criteria of what a fair trial looks like. Namely, it has to be speedy and public, the jury can't be biased and has to be composed of locals, you get to be told what you're being charged with, you get to confront your accusers and evidence against you, you can compel evidence in your favor, and you have a right to legal counsel.

Hundreds of years of legal precedent and general consensus has established that the 6th Amendment provides a right to a fair trial. However, "fair trial" has to be limited pretty strictly to these criteria. As you can imagine, there's quite a few edge cases that can arise.

One of those is heading to the Supreme Court. Specifically, the policy that some states have held (and one state still holds) that certain felony convictions don't require a unanimous agreement by the jury as to the result.
For those of you unaware of how legal proceedings work, in 49 states and the Federal courts if the jury is unable to come to a unanimous conclusion on a verdict (be it in favor of conviction or in favor of acquittal) then the trial results in a hung jury, which generally leads to a mistrial.

In Oregan, though, you can be convicted of a felony and sent to life in prison if only 10 out of 12 jurors decide you are guilty. This actually happened recently (the defendant was actually sentenced to 12½ years, not life, but the point stands).

There have been accusations that the 2-dissent-rule is racially charged (about 85% of Oregon is white; the KKK was very involved with Oregon politics when the law was passed, etc.). However, some legal experts say that overturning the rule and re-examining convicts who were convicted with dissenting juries would be a diaster for the state's legal system and cause trauma to both victims (who have seen those who did them wrong sent away to prison, only to face the possibility of them being out on the street again) and criminals, who may have to undergo a retrial only to be convicted again. And it's unclear if this would even be possible, or if the law changing would just hold a ton of people to a different standard than those already in prison.

And then there's the question of whether or not the law is actually unconstitutional. The legal argument against it has to prove, essentially, that a law which allows a jury to convict nonunanimously is unconsitutional because it violates the right to an impartial jury. It isn't immediately obvious that this is true — it's likely that legal arguments will closely examine how nonunanimous juries have actually played out in U.S. courts.


So NSG, what do you think? Should states be allowed to pass laws allowing felony convictions that aren't unanimous? What really is an unbiased jury? And should the Supreme Court try to read between the lines of the 6th Amendment and define a right to a general 'fair trial' that isn't explicitly on the page?
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:57 pm

Cisairse wrote:There have been accusations that the 2-dissent-rule is racially charged (about 85% of Oregon is white; the KKK was very involved with Oregon politics when the law was passed, etc.).


Out of all the arguments that could be used against this law, why did someone have to go to that one? Making everything into a race issue just brings out all the screeching about identity politics, which is a massive distraction.

The most basic problem is not about race. The issue is: How can you say you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn't agree? It's not really beyond a reasonable doubt then, if someone was found competent to serve as a juror and they still are not convinced. A retrial might introduce new evidence or arguments that make the case clearer, but simply overruling the dissenting jurors is ignoring where doubt still exists.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:13 am

You dont have a right to a fair trial. You have a right to due process. There is a difference.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:18 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:
Cisairse wrote:There have been accusations that the 2-dissent-rule is racially charged (about 85% of Oregon is white; the KKK was very involved with Oregon politics when the law was passed, etc.).


Out of all the arguments that could be used against this law, why did someone have to go to that one? Making everything into a race issue just brings out all the screeching about identity politics, which is a massive distraction.

The most basic problem is not about race. The issue is: How can you say you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn't agree? It's not really beyond a reasonable doubt then, if someone was found competent to serve as a juror and they still are not convinced. A retrial might introduce new evidence or arguments that make the case clearer, but simply overruling the dissenting jurors is ignoring where doubt still exists.


This is my stance perfectly. Nobody should be thrown into prison unless we know beyond reasonable doubt that this person is guilty and deserves it- and if there's a juror or 2 who disagrees, then how can we say it was beyond a reasonable doubt?
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:50 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:
Cisairse wrote:There have been accusations that the 2-dissent-rule is racially charged (about 85% of Oregon is white; the KKK was very involved with Oregon politics when the law was passed, etc.).


Out of all the arguments that could be used against this law, why did someone have to go to that one? Making everything into a race issue just brings out all the screeching about identity politics, which is a massive distraction.

The most basic problem is not about race. The issue is: How can you say you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn't agree? It's not really beyond a reasonable doubt then, if someone was found competent to serve as a juror and they still are not convinced. A retrial might introduce new evidence or arguments that make the case clearer, but simply overruling the dissenting jurors is ignoring where doubt still exists.

I agree this should be the basis for the attack not race
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Postby Telconi » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:21 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:
Cisairse wrote:There have been accusations that the 2-dissent-rule is racially charged (about 85% of Oregon is white; the KKK was very involved with Oregon politics when the law was passed, etc.).


Out of all the arguments that could be used against this law, why did someone have to go to that one? Making everything into a race issue just brings out all the screeching about identity politics, which is a massive distraction.

The most basic problem is not about race. The issue is: How can you say you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn't agree? It's not really beyond a reasonable doubt then, if someone was found competent to serve as a juror and they still are not convinced. A retrial might introduce new evidence or arguments that make the case clearer, but simply overruling the dissenting jurors is ignoring where doubt still exists.


Basically this, if jurors doubt, then you haven't proven the accusation beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Postby Risottia » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:28 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:[The issue is: How can you say you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn't agree? It's not really beyond a reasonable doubt then, if someone was found competent to serve as a juror and they still are not convinced.

The fact that two jurors aren't convinced doesn't make their doubt reasonable per se. They may be perfectly reasonable fellows, but this doesn't mean they're being reasonable on THIS specific issue in THIS specific moment.
.

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Postby Vallermoore » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:12 am

Most people in the USA (at least at the federal level) plead guilty for a shorter sentence rather then risk hugely long prison sentences if found guilty by a jury, unless their sentence will be so long anyway that they have nothing to lose from pleading not guilty.

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Cisairse
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Postby Cisairse » Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:36 am

Risottia wrote:
The Sherpa Empire wrote:[The issue is: How can you say you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn't agree? It's not really beyond a reasonable doubt then, if someone was found competent to serve as a juror and they still are not convinced.

The fact that two jurors aren't convinced doesn't make their doubt reasonable per se. They may be perfectly reasonable fellows, but this doesn't mean they're being reasonable on THIS specific issue in THIS specific moment.


Yeah, but you could use that argument to invalidate any decision made by any juror.
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Postby Hirota » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:01 am

Chan Island wrote:
The Sherpa Empire wrote:
Out of all the arguments that could be used against this law, why did someone have to go to that one? Making everything into a race issue just brings out all the screeching about identity politics, which is a massive distraction.

The most basic problem is not about race. The issue is: How can you say you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn't agree? It's not really beyond a reasonable doubt then, if someone was found competent to serve as a juror and they still are not convinced. A retrial might introduce new evidence or arguments that make the case clearer, but simply overruling the dissenting jurors is ignoring where doubt still exists.


This is my stance perfectly. Nobody should be thrown into prison unless we know beyond reasonable doubt that this person is guilty and deserves it- and if there's a juror or 2 who disagrees, then how can we say it was beyond a reasonable doubt?
I was a juror on a murder case involving 4 accused individuals with varying degrees of involvement. In fact I was the foreman...not out of choice - I volunteered because only one other person volunteered and I wanted there to be a vote.

I'm not sure how much I can say even now, but most of the time we spent was deliberating the involvement of the fourth individual. When the judge told us he would accept 10 or 11 out of the 12 of us with a verdict, 2 of the people who had said the other 3 were guilty flipped instantly after we returned to deliberations into saying all 4 were innocent having previously agreed with the consensus of the other 3 being guilty.

I honestly think for some people they can't hack the responsibility and pressure, and I saw it with these two. I don't think that made the trial unfair.
Last edited by Hirota on Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Telconi » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Risottia wrote:
The Sherpa Empire wrote:[The issue is: How can you say you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn't agree? It's not really beyond a reasonable doubt then, if someone was found competent to serve as a juror and they still are not convinced.

The fact that two jurors aren't convinced doesn't make their doubt reasonable per se. They may be perfectly reasonable fellows, but this doesn't mean they're being reasonable on THIS specific issue in THIS specific moment.


The entire jury system's cornerstone is the presumption that jurors are acting rationally.
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Postby Purpelia » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:44 pm

Telconi wrote:
Risottia wrote:The fact that two jurors aren't convinced doesn't make their doubt reasonable per se. They may be perfectly reasonable fellows, but this doesn't mean they're being reasonable on THIS specific issue in THIS specific moment.


The entire jury system's cornerstone is the presumption that jurors are acting rationally.

And that they even understand what's going on, which they don't. The whole thing is basically a trial by mob. Why you americans go along with it I do not know.
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Postby Telconi » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:58 pm

Purpelia wrote:
Telconi wrote:
The entire jury system's cornerstone is the presumption that jurors are acting rationally.

And that they even understand what's going on, which they don't. The whole thing is basically a trial by mob. Why you americans go along with it I do not know.


And here we have the hottest of hot takes, all jurors are ignorant of what a jury does.
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Postby Purpelia » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:02 pm

Telconi wrote:
Purpelia wrote:And that they even understand what's going on, which they don't. The whole thing is basically a trial by mob. Why you americans go along with it I do not know.


And here we have the hottest of hot takes, all jurors are ignorant of what a jury does.

It's not that. What they lack is a professional understanding of the law as well as the educational background to reasonably analyze and question the case as brought before them. Instead you basically get a popularity contest where the lawyer who is best at wowing the crowd wins. Where as with a professional judge that sort of thing won't fly. Than again you also elect your judges so it's not as if they are any better.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:31 pm

Your argument relies on assuming 100% of the populace is reasonable.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:48 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:Your argument relies on assuming 100% of the populace is reasonable.


Conjure up an image in your mind of the average person. Then remember that 50%of the population is dumber than that.

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Postby Ors Might » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:54 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Your argument relies on assuming 100% of the populace is reasonable.


Conjure up an image in your mind of the average person. Then remember that 50%of the population is dumber than that.

Wouldn’t that mean that half the population is smarter than that idiot though?
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:12 pm

Ors Might wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Conjure up an image in your mind of the average person. Then remember that 50%of the population is dumber than that.

Wouldn’t that mean that half the population is smarter than that idiot though?


They're the ones who get out of jury duty. :P

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Postby Ors Might » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:34 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Wouldn’t that mean that half the population is smarter than that idiot though?


They're the ones who get out of jury duty. :P

I always did think it was weird that my dad suddenly broke his leg whenever he got called to the court house..
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Postby Katganistan » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:12 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Wouldn’t that mean that half the population is smarter than that idiot though?


They're the ones who get out of jury duty. :P

I always go. Three days minimum getting paid to listen to others instead of do all the talking?

Yes please.

Besides, civic duty.
Last edited by Katganistan on Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:39 pm

Purpelia wrote:
Telconi wrote:
The entire jury system's cornerstone is the presumption that jurors are acting rationally.

And that they even understand what's going on, which they don't. The whole thing is basically a trial by mob. Why you americans go along with it I do not know.


They don't need to go along with it. The accused can opt for trial before a judge only.

They almost never do, which should answer your question.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:43 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
They're the ones who get out of jury duty. :P

I always go. Three days minimum getting paid to listen to others instead of do all the talking?

Yes please.

Besides, civic duty.


I've never been called. It turned out that because there is no criminal court (only some lesser court, not sure) in my area, nobody from here is ever called. That has thankfully been changed, I should get called up some day.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:45 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Katganistan wrote:I always go. Three days minimum getting paid to listen to others instead of do all the talking?

Yes please.

Besides, civic duty.


I've never been called. It turned out that because there is no criminal court (only some lesser court, not sure) in my area, nobody from here is ever called. That has thankfully been changed, I should get called up some day.


I was called once. But I didn’t serve because of medically compelling reasons. I don’t think I could ever do jury duty.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:47 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
I've never been called. It turned out that because there is no criminal court (only some lesser court, not sure) in my area, nobody from here is ever called. That has thankfully been changed, I should get called up some day.


I was called once. But I didn’t serve because of medically compelling reasons. I don’t think I could ever do jury duty.


It's not likely to be a murder trial y'know. You won't have to "kill" anyone if that's what you worry about?
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:49 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
I was called once. But I didn’t serve because of medically compelling reasons. I don’t think I could ever do jury duty.


It's not likely to be a murder trial y'know. You won't have to "kill" anyone if that's what you worry about?


Not what I meant. No. I mean that I have a medical reason as to why I likely won’t serve jury duty. That’s all. Plus it’s really not something I’d like doing, personally.
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