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[PASSED] Commend Kindjal

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Bormiar
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[PASSED] Commend Kindjal

Postby Bormiar » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:37 pm

This is obviously open to suggestions and comments. I won't be submitting soon. Try to provide reasoning behind comments so we have something to talk about.

The Security Council,

Recognizing Kindjal, a definitively utopic nation, to align suitably with the opinions of the World Assembly, which includes laudable international involvement, as well as practically-managed domestic policy,

Flattered by Kindjal’s internationally-beneficial foreign policy, which outlaws weapons of mass destruction, supports research into a space program, and spends the 9th-most in the world on foreign aid,

In agreement with Kindjal’s educated democratic system, which encourages free speech, devolutes management to local authorities in order to target each community specifically, and mandates each citizen’s vote be treated equally, rather than resorting to electoral colleges,

Acclaiming Kindjal’s spectacular services it provides for its billions of citizens, which consists of:
  • A public universal healthcare system (ranked 29th in the world), having an adequate ability to prevent treatment, a basic necessity to life, from causing financial ruin; a capacity to mitigate or even eradicate the effects of both common maladies and obscure diseases; and readiness when faced by emergency- this system has allowed Kindjal to have incredible general health among the citizenry (5th in world), and a lifespan of over a century (2nd),
  • A vitally-important public education system, which, being the top priority of the government expenditure, invests in Kindjali childrens’ future, teaching them of Kindjali culture, values, and life knowledge such as sex education, and has allowed Kindjal to maintain a highly intelligent population (3rd in world),
  • A safe, public transport alternative to dangerous automobiles which nearly eliminates cursing when commuting to work, and makes people happier and safer,

Proud of Kindjal’s rehabilitative law enforcement structure, which, having enforced a widespread demilitarized population, has nearly eradicated murder, and choking toddlers,

Impressed by Kindjal's AI-run economy, which has spurred the nation into becoming highly honest and unlikely to foster bribery or corruption,

Pleased by Kindjal's inclusiveness (2nd in world), which celebrates freedom to choose to marry those of the same sex as them, and encourages a heterogeneous population,

Documenting its other genial characteristics, such as a compassionate (1st in world), and nice (1st in world) population,

Closely Observing a beautiful environment in Kindjal, first in the world for not only its stunningness but also its satisfyingly sunny weather, cultivated by the governments eco-friendly policies, such as banning animal imprisonment, investing in a detailed climate change prevention program, and spending trillions of kins (currency of Kindjal) on maintaining a stunning ecosystem,

Jealous of the tens of millions of tourists (Kindjal is 1st in the world for tourism) that frequent the culturally significant nation yearly, as Kindjal maintains an educated and refined society,

Aware that achieving these legendary feats is no easy task, as it takes years of carefully refining a nation’s decisions and policies, and mistakes in a radically-utopic nation lead to radically destructive consequences,

Lauding Kindjal as a shining example to the world of being led with tenacity, determination, resolve, intelligence, activity, and persistence, even through the most detrimental of poor choices,

Hereby resolutely commends Kindjal.


The Security Council,

Finally cognizant of those nations which eschew superfluous international debate and instead quietly work towards the benefit of their own citizens, via addressing national problems so many acclaimed nations neglect,

Recognizing Kindjal, the paradise which, when noticed in the midst of international debacle, is considered to be the undisputed leader in achieving a utopian society, having granted widespread prosperity to its gargantuan population containing billions of individuals,

Acclaiming Kindjal’s spectacular services it provides for its billions of citizens, which consists of:
  • A public healthcare system ranked 29th in the world for its adequate ability to prevent treatment, a basic necessity to life, from causing financial ruin; its capacity to mitigate or even eradicate the effects of both common maladies and obscure diseases; and its readiness when faced by emergency- this system has allowed Kindjal to become 5th in the world in Health and 2nd in the world for lifespan, with an astonishing average lifespan of over a century,
  • An accomplished public education program, which is both well-funded, learned, and offering modern, developed methods of education, as well as helped Kindjal to be 3rd in the world for intelligence,
  • A public transport infrastructure which has nearly eliminated cursing when commuting to work, and makes all its citizens happier,
Noting, though this council cannot pin what allows Kindjal to be so impressively utopic, that the nation’s law enforcement must’ve done a good job, as Kindjal, which is first in the world for safety, rarely has a crime or choking toddler,

Flattered by Kindjal’s kind-hearted and genial spirit, being ranked 1st in the world for compassion, 1st in the world in for niceness, and 2nd in the world for inclusiveness; additionally, Kindjal is steadfastly against violence, being extremely pacifistic (1st) and providing a surplus of foreign aid (10th) to the world,

Convinced that, if the following statistic is accurate, Kindjal’s commendable presence is hardly refutable, as Kindjal’s citizens refuse almost all bribes, no matter how large, and the nation is ranked top 25th in integrity,

Jealous of the tens of millions of tourists (Kindjal is 1st in the world for tourism) that frequent the culturally significant nation yearly, as Kindjal maintains an educated and refined society,

Observing a beautiful environment in Kindjal, first in the world for not only its stunningness but also its satisfyingly sunny weather, cultivated by the governments eco-friendly policies,

Aware that achieving these legendary feats is no easy task, as it takes years of carefully refining a nation’s decisions and policies, and mistakes in a radically-utopic nation lead to radically destructive consequences,

Lauding Kindjal as a shining example to the world of being led with tenacity, determination, resolve, intelligence, activity, and persistence, even through the most detrimental of poor choices,

Hereby resolutely commends Kindjal.


The importance of issue-answering, a game that is very important to many players, is often undermined of by GPers and - by extension - the majority of SC members. An unfortunate perspective on the issue sphere is that it consists of a robotic rinse and repeat through the 1300 issues in the game with no inconsistencies, unpredictability, or variability. The truth is that we don’t know. We can’t access the source code. We can’t or haven’t, with all our collective resources and time, reverse engineer the equations NationStates uses for each and every stat for each issue to predict the outcome of our choices. Humans can, however difficult it may be- and it is often difficult. In the somewhat-canonized Issues Writing Guide, Candlewhisper Archive describes issues as “challenging”, “proactive”, and “notable”. Not only are issues intentionally made to be tough choices, but are also effectual (i.e. one wrong choice could potentially tank your precious stats). After an event in which Ransium (from one issue choice), had their welfare stat completely leveled (dropping by what looks to be 15,500%), they said as a learned player, “Extreme nations act in extreme ways when presented with extreme options”. At any moment, with one tiny mis-step, this could happen to one of the experienced issue answerers. Additionally, it should be noted that Kindjal’s early birth in NationStates never would’ve logically motivated their determination. Somehow, they did choose to stay around for a decade and a half, and easily thrived in a large subculture most of the millions of nations that have joined NS have either neglected or failed to succeed in (many of which were much older than Kindjal)- he simply had the capacity to do well, not the entitlement. All of their actions are indicative of the description provided in the penultimate clause of the proposal. They played the game well.
Last edited by Jakker on Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:33 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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9003
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Postby 9003 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:03 pm

Flattered by Kindjal’s kind-hearted and genial spirit, being ranked 1st in the world for compassion, 1st in the world in for niceness, and 2nd in the world for inclusiveness; additionally, Kindjal is steadfastly against violence, being extremely pacifistic (1st) and providing a surplus of foreign aid (10th) to the world,


I don't like the switching to putting the place in () rather then in front of the stat. but I agree with the importance of putting the 1# stats in.

Policies!
Noting that Kindjal's citizens are afforded many rights including the right to protest in public and have a direct vote in the political system.

Impressed that despite having the largest government in the world Kindjal manages to have the 25th least corrupt goverment, a feat made possible by Kindjal's state of the art AI Planning.

Touch on universal health care somewhere not sure where the best spot for that is
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Postby Tinhampton » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:04 pm

Full support. One suggestion: remove the second "in" from your phrase "1st in the world in for niceness."
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:14 pm

9003 wrote:
Flattered by Kindjal’s kind-hearted and genial spirit, being ranked 1st in the world for compassion, 1st in the world in for niceness, and 2nd in the world for inclusiveness; additionally, Kindjal is steadfastly against violence, being extremely pacifistic (1st) and providing a surplus of foreign aid (10th) to the world,


I don't like the switching to putting the place in () rather then in front of the stat. but I agree with the importance of putting the 1# stats in.

I'll amend that.

9003 wrote:Policies!
Noting that Kindjal's citizens are afforded many rights including the right to protest in public and have a direct vote in the political system.

Impressed that despite having the largest government in the world Kindjal manages to have the 25th least corrupt goverment, a feat made possible by Kindjal's state of the art AI Planning.

Touch on universal health care somewhere not sure where the best spot for that is
Universal Health Care


Great idea! That'll help my endeavorment to avoid laundry lists and actually have it fun and interesting.
Tinhampton wrote:Full support. One suggestion: remove the second "in" from your phrase "1st in the world in for niceness."


Thanks for the support, Tin! I'll do that.
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:15 pm

While I think this commendation could be much more artful, I do think Kindjal merrits consideration for a commendation. While I know stat based commends are usually dismissed out of hand for good reason, the dedication kindjal has put in the game for (if I am not mistaken) over a decade to get where they are now is truly impressive.

Commended by SC 236,
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:19 pm

Ransium wrote:While I think this commendation could be much more artful, I do think Kindjal merrits consideration for a commendation. While I know stat based commends are usually dismissed out of hand for good reason, the dedication kindjal has put in the game for (if I am not mistaken) over a decade to get where they are now is truly impressive.

Thanks. What do you mean by "artful"? I just want to know what I should look to do to improve it.
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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:33 am

I am not sure I support this in principle, sorry Borm.

I look at Security Council resolutions through the lens of our only stated purpose - "spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary" and that "The Security Council recognizes and responds to individual nations and regions, with the aim of ensuring global harmony."

On that basis I don't like how this is introduced in your text, it ignores the global purpose of the Security Council - which is its sole purpose. I might reconsider my position if it was reworded as explaining why Kindjal is significant on an international stage.

For example, it could be worded in a way that explains why Kindjal is a paragon for other nations, how their gregarious and hospitable approach to tourism allows them to epitomise a peaceful and accomplished society to a global audience, etc.
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Postby 9003 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:09 am

Numero Capitan wrote:I am not sure I support this in principle, sorry Borm.

I look at Security Council resolutions through the lens of our only stated purpose - "spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary" and that "The Security Council recognizes and responds to individual nations and regions, with the aim of ensuring global harmony."

On that basis I don't like how this is introduced in your text, it ignores the global purpose of the Security Council - which is its sole purpose. I might reconsider my position if it was reworded as explaining why Kindjal is significant on an international stage.

For example, it could be worded in a way that explains why Kindjal is a paragon for other nations, how their gregarious and hospitable approach to tourism allows them to epitomise a peaceful and accomplished society to a global audience, etc.


Building off that touching on how they are a role model for other nations and a shining beacon of an example of what nation's should try for (from an SC perspective)
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:45 pm

I think this would help. Right now it just reads to be too nakedly about stats without sparking joy. This would help without RPing kindjal in anyway.

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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:09 pm

*Scratches head*

You want to commend someone for sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years? Commend someone for gaining a whole bunch of 1% badges, or even becoming #1 in nation stats? I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the commendability in something that litterally any single other player in this game can easily accomplish. I don't foresee myself supporting this, especially since they haven't done anything in R/D or regional governance/development. Sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years isn't that commendable.
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Postby Morover » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:20 pm

Kuriko wrote:*Scratches head*

You want to commend someone for sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years? Commend someone for gaining a whole bunch of 1% badges, or even becoming #1 in nation stats? I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the commendability in something that litterally any single other player in this game can easily accomplish. I don't foresee myself supporting this, especially since they haven't done anything in R/D or regional governance/development. Sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years isn't that commendable.

I gotta say, I disagree with you here. How is this significantly different from any RP resolution? Maybe they don't explicitly write about their escapades, but they put just as much effort as those who do. While sitting and answering issues itself isn't commend-worthy, they've been doing it for a time longer than quite a few players nowadays have even been alive, and have done so to an extent that is obviously highly effective and has gotten them among the best in their class for what they do.

Maybe it's not your preferred way of playing the game, but I think it's just as commendable to play the game as the average player does, but to be highly effective at it. Of course, this could just be a difference of opinions, but I urge you to reconsider your position. The player in question obviously has put in significant effort into what they do, and I feel that's worth a commendation.

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Postby Kuriko » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:40 pm

Morover wrote:
Kuriko wrote:*Scratches head*

You want to commend someone for sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years? Commend someone for gaining a whole bunch of 1% badges, or even becoming #1 in nation stats? I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the commendability in something that litterally any single other player in this game can easily accomplish. I don't foresee myself supporting this, especially since they haven't done anything in R/D or regional governance/development. Sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years isn't that commendable.

I gotta say, I disagree with you here. How is this significantly different from any RP resolution? Maybe they don't explicitly write about their escapades, but they put just as much effort as those who do. While sitting and answering issues itself isn't commend-worthy, they've been doing it for a time longer than quite a few players nowadays have even been alive, and have done so to an extent that is obviously highly effective and has gotten them among the best in their class for what they do.

Maybe it's not your preferred way of playing the game, but I think it's just as commendable to play the game as the average player does, but to be highly effective at it. Of course, this could just be a difference of opinions, but I urge you to reconsider your position. The player in question obviously has put in significant effort into what they do, and I feel that's worth a commendation.

I'm sorry, but I'm not likely to change my opinion that sitting there and answering issues for years on end is more commendable than someone who's actually tried to make a difference in this game for the last 5 to 6 years. Litterally anyone can sit there and answer issues the right way to receive 1% badges, this isn't a thing notable enough to be commended for. Especially with a breakdown and a wiki on how to answer them to get a desired effect.
Last edited by Kuriko on Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ransium » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:43 pm

Kuriko wrote:*Scratches head*

You want to commend someone for sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years? Commend someone for gaining a whole bunch of 1% badges, or even becoming #1 in nation stats? I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the commendability in something that litterally any single other player in this game can easily accomplish. I don't foresee myself supporting this, especially since they haven't done anything in R/D or regional governance/development. Sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years isn't that commendable.


If anybody can do it why haven't more people? I've answered issues with varying regularity (but sometimes for several year periods every day). Just about every issue choice I've made favors the environment. This has put me in 45th in environmental beauty (10,913.7 lbs of wildlife per acre. You'd have to almost triple my score to beat Kindjal (27,185.39 lbs of wildlfe). You could add my score to the person in 10th overall and not beat Kindjal. Their dedication far exceeds anybody else in a category that I'm sure hundreds of nations are attempting to maximize. Their dedication is insane it is not easy to accomplish.

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Postby Morover » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:45 pm

Kuriko wrote:
Morover wrote:I gotta say, I disagree with you here. How is this significantly different from any RP resolution? Maybe they don't explicitly write about their escapades, but they put just as much effort as those who do. While sitting and answering issues itself isn't commend-worthy, they've been doing it for a time longer than quite a few players nowadays have even been alive, and have done so to an extent that is obviously highly effective and has gotten them among the best in their class for what they do.

Maybe it's not your preferred way of playing the game, but I think it's just as commendable to play the game as the average player does, but to be highly effective at it. Of course, this could just be a difference of opinions, but I urge you to reconsider your position. The player in question obviously has put in significant effort into what they do, and I feel that's worth a commendation.

I'm sorry, but I'm not likely to change my opinion that sitting there and answering issues for years on end is more commendable than someone who's actually tried to make a difference in this game for the last 5 to 6 years. Litterally anyone can sit there and answer issues the right way to receive 1% badges, this isn't a thing notable enough to be commended for. Especially with a breakdown and a wiki on how to answer them to get a desired effect.

While I agree that the at-vote proposal deserves to pass, the fact that it's failing certainly is not grounds for this candidate to not be commendable.

Regardless, it's your right to disagree, so I won't push any further.

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Postby Praeceps » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:58 pm

I'm against this.

As was just mentioned, the solutions for issues are publicly available, hence taking out the skill required to answer them.

Furthermore, since the proposal notes that the individual is first in a lot of stats, it should be noted that this is a result of the nation being old rather than being "better" at answering issues than others. The ability to get a higher score relates to having answered more issues (or also an older population in regards to some stats) which in turn relates to existing for a longer period of time.

Since Ransium mentioned environmental beauty: he currently has twice the environmental beauty score that I has— this sounds impressive, however, his population is also about five times larger than mine. The nominee has over six times the environmental beauty score that I do, yet under six times the amount of environmental beauty. I mention my nation since it easily fits the example for comparison; I am sure there are other nations out there that would have a similar score if it was compared relative to time spent on site (I know that some stats become more difficult to raise as time goes so so a strict ratio is not always an appropriate measurement eg. integrity).
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:29 pm

Morover wrote:
Kuriko wrote:*Scratches head*

You want to commend someone for sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years? Commend someone for gaining a whole bunch of 1% badges, or even becoming #1 in nation stats? I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the commendability in something that litterally any single other player in this game can easily accomplish. I don't foresee myself supporting this, especially since they haven't done anything in R/D or regional governance/development. Sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years isn't that commendable.

I gotta say, I disagree with you here. How is this significantly different from any RP resolution? Maybe they don't explicitly write about their escapades, but they put just as much effort as those who do. While sitting and answering issues itself isn't commend-worthy, they've been doing it for a time longer than quite a few players nowadays have even been alive, and have done so to an extent that is obviously highly effective and has gotten them among the best in their class for what they do.

Maybe it's not your preferred way of playing the game, but I think it's just as commendable to play the game as the average player does, but to be highly effective at it. Of course, this could just be a difference of opinions, but I urge you to reconsider your position. The player in question obviously has put in significant effort into what they do, and I feel that's worth a commendation.

I'm sure you didn't mean it, but quite frankly comparing issues answering to RP in this manner is insulting to the work that goes into RP. At most, answering issues will take 5 minutes of thought and 8 left mouse clicks every day. The RPers that this body has commended, on the other hand, spend whole hours at a time on what they do. On top of that RP is a collaborative process that actually contributes to the NS community, whereas answering issues just helps you collect more badges for yourself. The difference in effort expended and impact felt by the NS community between these two elements of the game is astronomical.
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:51 pm

Numero Capitan wrote:I am not sure I support this in principle, sorry Borm.
I look at Security Council resolutions through the lens of our only stated purpose - "spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary" and that "The Security Council recognizes and responds to individual nations and regions, with the aim of ensuring global harmony."

On that basis I don't like how this is introduced in your text, it ignores the global purpose of the Security Council - which is its sole purpose. I might reconsider my position if it was reworded as explaining why Kindjal is significant on an international stage.

For example, it could be worded in a way that explains why Kindjal is a paragon for other nations, how their gregarious and hospitable approach to tourism allows them to epitomise a peaceful and accomplished society to a global audience, etc.
9003 wrote:
Building off that touching on how they are a role model for other nations and a shining beacon of an example of what nation's should try for (from an SC perspective)

Good suggestions. I'll include them. I tried amending draft 1, but I'll probably just rewrite it. Once you change the direction of the proposal, I don't think you can change the draft without mostly restarting.




Kuriko wrote:*Scratches head*

You want to commend someone for sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years? Commend someone for gaining a whole bunch of 1% badges, or even becoming #1 in nation stats? I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the commendability in something that litterally any single other player in this game can easily accomplish. I don't foresee myself supporting this, especially since they haven't done anything in R/D or regional governance/development. Sitting and answering issues for 15-17 years isn't that commendable.

I disagree. It takes a lot of dedication and determination to do something like that. Also, if it were easy, why is Kindjal the only person who's done it this well? Sure, it might only take 10-15 minutes per day (a bit longer for me), but that becomes hundreds of hours, conservatively. To compare that to other resolutions: 3000 detags? Maybe 15000 minutes (about 250 hours). 10 resolutions? 50-200 hours depending on the resolution.

This:

Ransium wrote:If anybody can do it why haven't more people? I've answered issues with varying regularity (but sometimes for several year periods every day). Just about every issue choice I've made favors the environment. This has put me in 45th in environmental beauty (10,913.7 lbs of wildlife per acre. You'd have to almost triple my score to beat Kindjal (27,185.39 lbs of wildlfe). You could add my score to the person in 10th overall and not beat Kindjal. Their dedication far exceeds anybody else in a category that I'm sure hundreds of nations are attempting to maximize. Their dedication is insane it is not easy to accomplish.


Kuriko wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm not likely to change my opinion that sitting there and answering issues for years on end is more commendable than someone who's actually tried to make a difference in this game for the last 5 to 6 years. Litterally anyone can sit there and answer issues the right way to receive 1% badges, this isn't a thing notable enough to be commended for. Especially with a breakdown and a wiki on how to answer them to get a desired effect.

I think you'd have to prove that anyone can do it. Because as it appears, and using Ransium as an anecdote, they can't. Even people much older than Kindjal. For example, 3000 people were playing NationStates in the first two weeks of its existence. How many of them do you think stuck it out for 1-2 decades to do something meaningful? My guess is 0.

As for the breakdown and Wiki, Kindjal predates both of them by 10-15 years, and during that time he was still this good. Additionally, those both only focus on the average nation. Once you get into the radical big-leagues like Kindjal, it's not really gonna help.




Praeceps wrote:As was just mentioned, the solutions for issues are publicly available, hence taking out the skill required to answer them.


See me talking to Kuri above. As was said in the proposal, extreme nations respond to issues in extreme (uncommon) or even unnatural ways. Those resources didn't exist and therefore didn't help Kindjal or any of the big issues players, and they won't help them now. Even for me, with a nation ranked top 18% in averageness, I maybe get an accurate prediction from those sources 30% of the time. They also only really work well for specific stats.

Praeceps wrote:Furthermore, since the proposal notes that the individual is first in a lot of stats, it should be noted that this is a result of the nation being old rather than being "better" at answering issues than others. The ability to get a higher score relates to having answered more issues (or also an older population in regards to some stats) which in turn relates to existing for a longer period of time.


Let's say I were to get the top 1000 most-populated nations in the game, and I referenced that to those nations that did exceptionally well in issues. Maybe I get a couple found in both lists, but that's going to be a fraction of a precent. Right off the bat, that screams a lack of correlation between age and success. Even if you got 10%, that wouldn't be a very good argument for you.

A (I suspect there are several others) true correlation is time spent answering issues and success in answering issues. It just so happens to be the case that every single reasonable C&C ever passed should have a lot to do with the nominee spending a lot of time doing what they do. If I recall correctly, Commend Abacathea was actually heavily criticized because Aba hadn't spent enough time playing the game yet.

Praeceps wrote:Since Ransium mentioned environmental beauty: he currently has twice the environmental beauty score that I has— this sounds impressive, however, his population is also about five times larger than mine. The nominee has over six times the environmental beauty score that I do, yet under six times the amount of environmental beauty. I mention my nation since it easily fits the example for comparison; I am sure there are other nations out there that would have a similar score if it was compared relative to time spent on site (I know that some stats become more difficult to raise as time goes so so a strict ratio is not always an appropriate measurement eg. integrity).

Your nation doesn't actually fit as an example for comparison. "I know that some stats become more difficult to raise as time goes so so a strict ratio" <== As you know, the problem is that we can't treat it as though stats increase linearly as you go forward. I wouldn't assume that the younger generation is just a better group of issue answerers because their immediate slope looks better. For a better example, look at Tzo, who Kindjal beats in almost every stat they both go for, by a long shot.




Wallenburg wrote:I'm sure you didn't mean it, but quite frankly comparing issues answering to RP in this manner is insulting to the work that goes into RP. At most, answering issues will take 5 minutes of thought and 8 left mouse clicks every day. The RPers that this body has commended, on the other hand, spend whole hours at a time on what they do. On top of that RP is a collaborative process that actually contributes to the NS community, whereas answering issues just helps you collect more badges for yourself. The difference in effort expended and impact felt by the NS community between these two elements of the game is astronomical.

If you do some quick multiplication and you'll find that Kindjal's spent a whole lot of whole hours. C&Cs should go to those that play the game well, because intentions aren't measurable, and impact is quite subjective. For example, Kindjal inspires me at least to answer issues, and they give me a challenge. Regardless, playing the game well is very common reason for commendation (e.g. in roleplay, lots of it is uncollaborative nation maintenance).
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Pencil Sharpeners 2
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Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:09 pm

I fully support this

When I started the game back in 2014, I looked at the World census every day (back before live rankings were a thing) and noticed that Kindjal always seemed to be either top or bottom. Seeing that level of World Census dominance was something that I aspired to, and was one of the early drivers in getting me hooked on the game.

This level of dedication and consistent success over 17+ years is not an easy task. There have been changes to how rankings are calculated, new rankings added, hundreds of new issues, and significant changes to the effects of old issues. yet, throughout it all, Kindjal is one of the few nations to always be at the top. I don't think anyone else has as many #1 rankings as she does.

As someone who has held positions relating to integration in a Feeder region, answering issues is the biggest concern of the vast majority of new nations. Most of the questions I got asked by newbies were based on issues (which option should I choose for issue X?) or rankings (How do I improve ranking Y?). People move into other areas such as RP and R/D, but most people start with issues, and that is what initially gets them coming back to the game. Without issue answering, we probably wouldn't have people sticking around for long enough to get involved in the other areas.

To say that issue answering / getting high World Census rankings is easy, and that anyone could do it, is ridiculous, and unsurprisingly comes from people who don't bother with it. It's like me saying that R/D is easy because all you do is go into a region and click a button to endorse someone. I don't need to say any more on that.
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Bormiar
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Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:17 pm

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:I fully support this

When I started the game back in 2014, I looked at the World census every day (back before live rankings were a thing) and noticed that Kindjal always seemed to be either top or bottom. Seeing that level of World Census dominance was something that I aspired to, and was one of the early drivers in getting me hooked on the game.

This level of dedication and consistent success over 17+ years is not an easy task. There have been changes to how rankings are calculated, new rankings added, hundreds of new issues, and significant changes to the effects of old issues. yet, throughout it all, Kindjal is one of the few nations to always be at the top. I don't think anyone else has as many #1 rankings as she does.

As someone who has held positions relating to integration in a Feeder region, answering issues is the biggest concern of the vast majority of new nations. Most of the questions I got asked by newbies were based on issues (which option should I choose for issue X?) or rankings (How do I improve ranking Y?). People move into other areas such as RP and R/D, but most people start with issues, and that is what initially gets them coming back to the game. Without issue answering, we probably wouldn't have people sticking around for long enough to get involved in the other areas.

To say that issue answering / getting high World Census rankings is easy, and that anyone could do it, is ridiculous, and unsurprisingly comes from people who don't bother with it. It's like me saying that R/D is easy because all you do is go into a region and click a button to endorse someone. I don't need to say any more on that.

Yay! I know this is extremely ridiculous, but I was watching your name on the browsing this forum section, hoping that you might comment on this thread and thinking about whether it would be for or against.

Thanks for not giving me something I'd have to rebut. I agree with that post :).
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Wallenburg
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:04 pm

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:As someone who has held positions relating to integration in a Feeder region, answering issues is the biggest concern of the vast majority of new nations. Most of the questions I got asked by newbies were based on issues (which option should I choose for issue X?) or rankings (How do I improve ranking Y?). People move into other areas such as RP and R/D, but most people start with issues, and that is what initially gets them coming back to the game. Without issue answering, we probably wouldn't have people sticking around for long enough to get involved in the other areas.

Funny about that, if the nominee showed any indication of helping new players, or really any part of the community, answer issues and understand how issues work, then there'd be a decent argument for a commendation here. Unfortunately, the nominee has never posted on the forums, and hasn't posted in their RMB for a year and a half. In fact, I can't find a single example of them ever even talking about issues with other people. That doesn't strike me as the sort of exemplary conduct worthy of a commendation.
Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:To say that issue answering / getting high World Census rankings is easy, and that anyone could do it, is ridiculous, and unsurprisingly comes from people who don't bother with it. It's like me saying that R/D is easy because all you do is go into a region and click a button to endorse someone. I don't need to say any more on that.

I mean, issues answering is objectively easy, and getting high stats is, in large part, as simple as logging in every 30 days to not CTE.
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Bormiar
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Posts: 580
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:13 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:As someone who has held positions relating to integration in a Feeder region, answering issues is the biggest concern of the vast majority of new nations. Most of the questions I got asked by newbies were based on issues (which option should I choose for issue X?) or rankings (How do I improve ranking Y?). People move into other areas such as RP and R/D, but most people start with issues, and that is what initially gets them coming back to the game. Without issue answering, we probably wouldn't have people sticking around for long enough to get involved in the other areas.

Funny about that, if the nominee showed any indication of helping new players, or really any part of the community, answer issues and understand how issues work, then there'd be a decent argument for a commendation here. Unfortunately, the nominee has never posted on the forums, and hasn't posted in their RMB for a year and a half. In fact, I can't find a single example of them ever even talking about issues with other people. That doesn't strike me as the sort of exemplary conduct worthy of a commendation.

I don't see how that's very fair to Kindjal. It's never been a requirement for a commendation to talk to people. Koem Kab, for example, is incommunicado, and no one brought up that in their condemnation. I suppose sometimes people understand that you don't have to spell it out to make a great example.

Wallenburg wrote:That doesn't strike me as the sort of exemplary conduct worthy of a commendation.


You're supporting PS2's point:

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:To say that issue answering / getting high World Census rankings is easy, and that anyone could do it, is ridiculous, and unsurprisingly comes from people who don't bother with it.


Wallenburg wrote:
Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:To say that issue answering / getting high World Census rankings is easy, and that anyone could do it, is ridiculous, and unsurprisingly comes from people who don't bother with it. It's like me saying that R/D is easy because all you do is go into a region and click a button to endorse someone. I don't need to say any more on that.

I mean, issues answering is objectively easy, and getting high stats is, in large part, as simple as logging in every 30 days to not CTE.

Where are you getting "objectively" from? I feel like that's just a word people just throw in a sentence to make it seem grounded. There are at least tens of thousands of examples of people picking the exact right answer to get what they want and still having consequences they didn't want. You're never getting everything. Banning automobiles, for example, might skyrocket your eco-friendliness, but your scientific advancement pummels and your Automobile manufacturing stat levels.

As for only logging in every 30 days, Kindjal logs in much more often than that, and the two stats you would get from logging in every 30 days (economic output and population) are not being commended here.
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Makdon
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Founded: Nov 14, 2016
Capitalizt

Postby Makdon » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:28 am

Wallenburg wrote:I'm sure you didn't mean it, but quite frankly comparing issues answering to RP in this manner is insulting to the work that goes into RP. At most, answering issues will take 5 minutes of thought and 8 left mouse clicks every day. The RPers that this body has commended, on the other hand, spend whole hours at a time on what they do. On top of that RP is a collaborative process that actually contributes to the NS community, whereas answering issues just helps you collect more badges for yourself. The difference in effort expended and impact felt by the NS community between these two elements of the game is astronomical.

Sure, on a day-to-day basis, rp takes more time. But Kindjal has been answering issues for what, 15-17 years? That's an incredible amount of time and commitment. How many rpers have been consistently and excellently dedicated to it for that long? Probably not many. Also, c/c's aren't just handed out for the amount of work it takes to do something. From an "IC" perspective, Kindjal should be commended for being an excellent IC character, no doubt. Even from a more meta viewpoint, Kindjal sets a great example for newer nations, and can certainly inspire them to stay committed to the issues answering game. With that in mind, I fully support this proposal.
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Wallenburg
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:33 pm

Makdon wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:I'm sure you didn't mean it, but quite frankly comparing issues answering to RP in this manner is insulting to the work that goes into RP. At most, answering issues will take 5 minutes of thought and 8 left mouse clicks every day. The RPers that this body has commended, on the other hand, spend whole hours at a time on what they do. On top of that RP is a collaborative process that actually contributes to the NS community, whereas answering issues just helps you collect more badges for yourself. The difference in effort expended and impact felt by the NS community between these two elements of the game is astronomical.

Sure, on a day-to-day basis, rp takes more time. But Kindjal has been answering issues for what, 15-17 years? That's an incredible amount of time and commitment. How many rpers have been consistently and excellently dedicated to it for that long? Probably not many. Also, c/c's aren't just handed out for the amount of work it takes to do something. From an "IC" perspective, Kindjal should be commended for being an excellent IC character, no doubt. Even from a more meta viewpoint, Kindjal sets a great example for newer nations, and can certainly inspire them to stay committed to the issues answering game. With that in mind, I fully support this proposal.

Seeing as there is no IC material on Kindjal, I would disagree that they have an excellent IC character, or really any IC character at all. If you consider the curation of lots of yellow badges commendation-worthy, though, that's entirely your prerogative.
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Bormiar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 580
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:49 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Makdon wrote:Sure, on a day-to-day basis, rp takes more time. But Kindjal has been answering issues for what, 15-17 years? That's an incredible amount of time and commitment. How many rpers have been consistently and excellently dedicated to it for that long? Probably not many. Also, c/c's aren't just handed out for the amount of work it takes to do something. From an "IC" perspective, Kindjal should be commended for being an excellent IC character, no doubt. Even from a more meta viewpoint, Kindjal sets a great example for newer nations, and can certainly inspire them to stay committed to the issues answering game. With that in mind, I fully support this proposal.

Seeing as there is no IC material on Kindjal, I would disagree that they have an excellent IC character, or really any IC character at all. If you consider the curation of lots of yellow badges commendation-worthy, though, that's entirely your prerogative.

Well results of issues are in character. In character, they have x number of citizens; they spend x amount on y; etc.
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Ramaeus
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Founded: Dec 18, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ramaeus » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:43 pm

Bormiar wrote:Well results of issues are in character. In character, they have x number of citizens; they spend x amount on y; etc.

So, what now?

Their national statistics in any RP are in constant flux, which makes them an extremely unreliable RP partner for themselves (because they have no verifiable presence in any RP)?

If their only contributions to the NationStates world are via the collection of several shiny badges on their nation page, that makes a rather uninspiring candidate.
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