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Is defending fascists morally ok?

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MNIC
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Founded: Aug 22, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Is defending fascists morally ok?

Postby MNIC » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:46 am

As the new liberation comes closer and it is almost a guarantee that the The Union of the Axis Powers will be liberated, I am not fully ready to take a side. On one side, I worry if it ok to support a group of fascists that are against communist ideals, naming themselves after horrible people. I don't really want to support the Union, but on the other end of things, I don't like the SC being used to wage ideological warfare. The writer of the bill did not write a great bill, and is a communist(which I support more than fascists) looking to wage war on a region that has anti-communist manifestos. In other words, I don't like either option. However, I would be interested to hear the opinions of others, as the crown jewel of democracy is the opinions of the people.

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Inyourfaceistan
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Anarchy

Postby Inyourfaceistan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:50 am

I mean Fascism and 3rd-Position ideologies are garbage...

But better dead than Red!
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Christian Confederation
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Postby Christian Confederation » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:52 am

Inyourfaceistan wrote:I mean Fascism and 3rd-Position ideologies are garbage...

But better dead than Red!
The commies can have my private property over my dead body and all the pinkos I take down with me!

Better dead than red! I'd die before allowing socialism or Communism.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:21 am

No.

/thread
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The Gilded Star
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Gilded Star » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:25 am

Better dead than red is kind of a funny saying in this case because both communism and fascism tend to implement red in their motifs.

Also the thing with fascists is they tend to make more enemies than only communists. When there's a noticeable overlap in the Venn diagram between fascists, nazis, white supremacists, KKK, neo-confederates, christian extremists, ultranationals, and so forth, there tends to be a lot more people than just communists in the "other" category. So being anti-fascist doesn't automatically make you pro-communist.

You can easily be against both fascism and communism. They're both totalitarian ideologies on the far extremes of the left-right spectrum. There's no need or requirement to take a side when it comes to either of them.

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MNIC
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Founded: Aug 22, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby MNIC » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:50 am

Inyourfaceistan wrote:I mean Fascism and 3rd-Position ideologies are garbage...

But better dead than Red!
The commies can have my private property over my dead body and all the pinkos I take down with me!


If you look at it, much of the fascist manifesto that you sent out is just the same as many of the same things that democratic socialists say. However, the government never turns into anything but a dictatorship. All in all, I still can't condone fascism, and therefore I will take no side, as I'm not going to help ideological warfare continue through the security council of the world

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Twins of Hearts
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Right-wing Utopia

Postby Twins of Hearts » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:10 am

People have lost all perspective in the rhetoric Gameplay has assigned "bash fash". If a region is clearly roleplaying wars/conflict/etc then they should be left to their own devices. However, so many are trying to "White Knight" themselves into a commendation or Condemnation (Like Cormac's currently submitted for both such badges) most players will not read beyond the rhetoric. The result is an uninformed majority of gameplayers voting on uninformed opinions with malicious self interest at heart.

I find fascism abhorrent and am completely fine with the sinking of the Nazi online element also present in NS; however as of late it has become totally one sided in my opinion, with communist worshiping regions operating with impunity (roleplay wise) while the opposite isle unable to even roleplay WWII Germany without being castigated and blacklisted by Cormac, Xoriet, and the other excessively "involved" NSGP members.

Morality is as always a flexible question, based on upbringing and I cannot speak on that subject for others, but I would state that my in game morals would allow me to defend a "fascist" region that was a roleplay entity without the extra OOC "strings attached".

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Xoriet
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Postby Xoriet » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:27 am

I was technically going to stay out of the thread but since a certain someone saw fit to bring me up: I don't care if you want to roleplay WWII Germany. It does however draw in actual Nazis and fascists by default and then you have a region full of actual adherents of hateful ideologies. The issue isn't as cut and dry as anyone with a fascist tag means auto-Nazi to me. We de-tag regions that are clearly tag collectors or just have a theme with roleplay. We raid the actual adherents of fascism and Nazism. Very different.
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Laeden
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Laeden » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:28 am

That is a tricky question. The bottom line of this discussion is: should we defend the democratic rights of those who shun democracy altogether?

It seems to me that, in a democratic society, we ought to defend the life, the physical integrity and the freedom of speech of all people, including those who oppose democracy.

I say that because democracy isn't merely the government of the majority. Rather, it's a system where different points of view can be equally brought to the public arena and discussed by civilized people. Banning a political point of view, regardless of how terrible it might be, is an attack on the very concept of democracy.

Therefore, it seems to me that we should protect the right of fascists and nazis to speak, and of course protect their physical wellbeing. We should strive to overcome them by pointing out the inadequacies of their ideology, and not by killing of physically harming them.

In the end, I like to think that an advanced democracy is not that which outlaws fascism or hunts it down, but rather, is the one that people have enough education and political awareness to realize that totalitarian regimes are against their best interests, and obviously morally wrong.

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Inyourfaceistan
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Anarchy

Postby Inyourfaceistan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:39 am

The Gilded Star wrote:Better dead than red is kind of a funny saying in this case because both communism and fascism tend to implement red in their motifs.

So an even better reason to say "better dead than red!"
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:52 am

I view defending a fascist region to be relatively equivalent to cooperating with them.

There's a reason Defenders don't raise a finger in defense of those types, and typically are involved in the invasion and destruction of those regions oftentimes.
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The Gilded Star
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Gilded Star » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:52 am

Xoriet wrote:I was technically going to stay out of the thread but since a certain someone saw fit to bring me up: I don't care if you want to roleplay WWII Germany. It does however draw in actual Nazis and fascists by default and then you have a region full of actual adherents of hateful ideologies. The issue isn't as cut and dry as anyone with a fascist tag means auto-Nazi to me. We de-tag regions that are clearly tag collectors or just have a theme with roleplay. We raid the actual adherents of fascism and Nazism. Very different.


Also worth noting there's a lot of fascists that hide behind "it's just roleplay bro" while actively advocating for real-life antisemitism, racism, and so forth. I think there's a noticeable line between people just RPing WWII Germany and having a hard OOC stance against that kind of rhetoric, versus people claiming they're only RPing WWII Germany but turning a blind eye to all the RL rhetoric and preaching that goes on in their OOC channels.

Laeden wrote:In the end, I like to think that an advanced democracy is not that which outlaws fascism or hunts it down, but rather, is the one that people have enough education and political awareness to realize that totalitarian regimes are against their best interests, and obviously morally wrong.


Invite a wolf to a sheep pen and explain to him how wrong it is to kill sheep, and he's still going to kill and eat them simply because that's in the best interest of the wolf. Sometimes that's just the way things are and you can either choose to keep the wolf out or let him eat you.

But yeah, I guess to a degree, if people choose to embrace fascism and destroy democracy, that's their democratic choice to make. I don't think you can blame the people who would die under fascism regimes for not being okay with that, though.

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Twins of Hearts
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Right-wing Utopia

Postby Twins of Hearts » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:02 am

Tim-Opolis wrote:I view defending a fascist region to be relatively equivalent to cooperating with them.

There's a reason Defenders don't raise a finger in defense of those types, and typically are involved in the invasion and destruction of those regions oftentimes.


I believe the reasons could vary wildly, from "there is nothing in it for the fendas" to gross negligence and ineptitude. Depends on the org I suppose.

The Gilded Star wrote:
Xoriet wrote:I was technically going to stay out of the thread but since a certain someone saw fit to bring me up: I don't care if you want to roleplay WWII Germany. It does however draw in actual Nazis and fascists by default and then you have a region full of actual adherents of hateful ideologies. The issue isn't as cut and dry as anyone with a fascist tag means auto-Nazi to me. We de-tag regions that are clearly tag collectors or just have a theme with roleplay. We raid the actual adherents of fascism and Nazism. Very different.


Also worth noting there's a lot of fascists that hide behind "it's just roleplay bro" while actively advocating for real-life antisemitism, racism, and so forth. I think there's a noticeable line between people just RPing WWII Germany and having a hard OOC stance against that kind of rhetoric, versus people claiming they're only RPing WWII Germany but turning a blind eye to all the RL rhetoric and preaching that goes on in their OOC channels.

Laeden wrote:In the end, I like to think that an advanced democracy is not that which outlaws fascism or hunts it down, but rather, is the one that people have enough education and political awareness to realize that totalitarian regimes are against their best interests, and obviously morally wrong.


Invite a wolf to a sheep pen and explain to him how wrong it is to kill sheep, and he's still going to kill and eat them simply because that's in the best interest of the wolf. Sometimes that's just the way things are and you can either choose to keep the wolf out or let him eat you.

But yeah, I guess to a degree, if people choose to embrace fascism and destroy democracy, that's their democratic choice to make. I don't think you can blame the people who would die under fascism regimes for not being okay with that, though.


Yes, some bad guys may try to be wolves in sheeps clothing. Once it goes OOC, I agree, allowing a region in game to exist as a platform for recruiting RL terrorists (Antifa) or RL terrorists (White Supremacy Groups/Neo Nazi's) is completely abhorrent and unacceptable, especially with all the young kids on this site. The question then becomes how is it policed? If we allow those who are the opposite political stance to be the judge, all of the regions would burn. Also, keeping them as trophy regions may eliminate the previously used "platform" but it stops nothing at all, they can just as easily make innocuous sounding regions that promulgate either end of the hate based political spectrum. My view on the subject: Lets the Mods do their jobs! There is no need for a Windmill tilting contest outside of roleplay. Let them be sorted out by those tasked and trusted with such things.

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Eternal Cesken
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Postby Eternal Cesken » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:04 am

Yes

/thread
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The Church of Satan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:08 am

Politics, for me, have nothing to do with it. Fascism = hate. So if someone whines about their freedom of speech or whatever else being infringed upon because they are a fascist or support fascist ideologies, they're supporting and encouraging hate. If they're going to do that then I don't care about their freedom as it relates to that. Hatred, in my opinion, should not be protected.
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Bear Stearns
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:13 am

Defending fascists is not the same as defending fascism. Some people think it is okay to inflict violence on someone simply because they have been identified as "fascist". Most of the time, the identification as a fascist is incorrect, and that's how innocent people get hurt.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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2nd Imperial German Reich
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Postby 2nd Imperial German Reich » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:18 am

This is a tricky question for me.

While we can all agree that fascism = hate and that fascism is an abhorrent totalitarian ideology, I do believe that fascists should maintain their right to freedom of speech. I do, however, also believe that we should heavily discourage association with known fascist groups and such.

Ironically, fascists need freedom of speech to remove freedom of speech. However, a fascist is still a human. And as such, they are entitled to the same rights that we are, no matter how heinous their opinions and ideology.

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The Church of Satan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:22 am

Bear Stearns wrote:Defending fascists is not the same as defending fascism. Some people think it is okay to inflict violence on someone simply because they have been identified as "fascist". Most of the time, the identification as a fascist is incorrect, and that's how innocent people get her.

And if that fascist believes, for example, that PB&J is a great dinner food then I will defend his right to say it even if I'd rather have a burger.
2nd Imperial German Reich wrote:This is a tricky question for me.

While we can all agree that fascism = hate and that fascism is an abhorrent totalitarian ideology, I do believe that fascists should maintain their right to freedom of speech. I do, however, also believe that we should heavily discourage association with known fascist groups and such.

Ironically, fascists need freedom of speech to remove freedom of speech. However, a fascist is still a human. And as such, they are entitled to the same rights that we are, no matter how heinous their opinions and ideology.

See, that's my issue with freedom. There is such a thing as too much freedom. There needs to be a limit. Spreading hateful ideologies would be crossing such a line in the sand. Don't misunderstand, I love freedom. However spreading hateful ideologies is, in my honest opinion, an abuse of the very freedom that allows it to happen.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:24 am

This thread is clearly in reference to a region being invaded, which changes the situation. I believe that any region on NS should have the right to self determination, unless they violate the Terms of Service or if they infringe on the regional soveriegnty of other regions. I'm fairly certain the region in question has done at least one of the two.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:25 am

The Church of Satan wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Defending fascists is not the same as defending fascism. Some people think it is okay to inflict violence on someone simply because they have been identified as "fascist". Most of the time, the identification as a fascist is incorrect, and that's how innocent people get her.

And if that fascist believes, for example, that PB&J is a great dinner food then I will defend his right to say it even if I'd rather have a burger.
2nd Imperial German Reich wrote:This is a tricky question for me.

While we can all agree that fascism = hate and that fascism is an abhorrent totalitarian ideology, I do believe that fascists should maintain their right to freedom of speech. I do, however, also believe that we should heavily discourage association with known fascist groups and such.

Ironically, fascists need freedom of speech to remove freedom of speech. However, a fascist is still a human. And as such, they are entitled to the same rights that we are, no matter how heinous their opinions and ideology.

See, that's my issue with freedom. There is such a thing as too much freedom. There needs to be a limit. Spreading hateful ideologies would be crossing such a line in the sand. Don't misunderstand, I love freedom. However spreading hateful ideologies is, in my honest opinion, an abuse of the very freedom that allows it to happen.

But that said, physical violence and hating on the person instead of the idea is the wrong way to stop the spread of hateful ideologies.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:26 am

The Church of Satan wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Defending fascists is not the same as defending fascism. Some people think it is okay to inflict violence on someone simply because they have been identified as "fascist". Most of the time, the identification as a fascist is incorrect, and that's how innocent people get her.

And if that fascist believes, for example, that PB&J is a great dinner food then I will defend his right to say it even if I'd rather have a burger.


Would you think it is okay to harm him?
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:26 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
The Church of Satan wrote:And if that fascist believes, for example, that PB&J is a great dinner food then I will defend his right to say it even if I'd rather have a burger.

See, that's my issue with freedom. There is such a thing as too much freedom. There needs to be a limit. Spreading hateful ideologies would be crossing such a line in the sand. Don't misunderstand, I love freedom. However spreading hateful ideologies is, in my honest opinion, an abuse of the very freedom that allows it to happen.

But that said, physical violence and hating on the person instead of the idea is the wrong way to stop the spread of hateful ideologies.


It's why the war on Islamic terrorism has been a failure. If you think an ideology is your enemy, then you never defeat it and you be seeing that ideology everywhere.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Rainbowsix
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Rainbowsix » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:27 am

is defending anarchists and groups like antifa morally ok?
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Che Triumphant
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Che Triumphant » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:32 am

After what happened at Christchurch I would hope this question doesn’t even need to be asked

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:32 am

My Grandfather smoked his whole life. I was about 10 years old when my mother said to him, "If you ever want to see your grandchildren graduate, you have to stop immediately." Tears welled up in his eyes when he realized what exactly was at stake. He gave it up immediately. Three years later he died of lung cancer. It was really sad and destroyed me. My mother said to me - "Don't ever smoke. Please don't put your family through what your Grandfather put us through." I agreed. At 28, I have never touched a cigarette. I must say, I feel a very slight sense of regret for never having done it, because this thread gave me cancer anyway.
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The color or what?..

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