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Why do Christianity and conservatism go hand-in-hand?

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Why do Christianity and conservatism go hand-in-hand?

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:46 pm

For my 3500th post, I'm going to cite the same images I've been citing in many a conversation now.

Image


Image


The above is just the election of George W. Bush, but I could point out a similar thing for Trump:

Image


Or, for contrast, compare it to religiosity/irreligiosity throughout the world:

Image


Time and time again, the most progressive countries AND the most progressive US states have proven to be the least religious. I watch progressive Christians try to make the case for the Bible being progressive, and there's something oddly emotionally satisfying about that, but there's no sense ignoring statistics. However the Bible was supposedly intended to be interpreted (and its authors are no longer around to explain the contradictions) there's an undeniable pattern of conservative effects.

I'm going to propose a tentative explanation. Feel free to either critique it or offer alternative ones:

1. The Bible draws in the poor by condemning greed, condemning the wealthy, etc... making the poor more likely to genuinely like it, and giving the rich more incentive to fake liking it. Then, the Bible says that if someone smacks you around, you should turn the other cheek and let them smack you again. Obviously, this isn't just to be taken literally, but is to be extended to abusive behaviour; physical or otherwise in general. Obviously, someone with a conscience might feel bad about mistreating someone if they react meekly, depending on how biased their conscience is on the matter. However, some wealthy businessperson who wants to assert dominance over his/her employees will see in this a ripe opportunity to get away with abusing them, knowing their victims are too meek to stand up for themselves. Not all rich people are evil, obviously, but in a marketplace where asserting dominance over employees is a competitive advantage, a disproportionate slice of evil people will get rich. To cap it off, the Bible even threatens the greedy with punishment in the afterlife. If the poor believe it, they might be less inclined to do anything about greed here and now. So for comparison, here's one more map for you; poverty by state.

Image


I specify Christianity in particular not to deny that Islam has similar effects on social issues, (not sure about economic ones) but because Christianity is the one with the most direct effects on the first world. (For now.) And "religion" is too broad to comment on.

EDIT: Tweaked wording to clarify my awareness of the metaphorical nature of turning the other cheek.
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Postby Albrenia » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:03 pm

Progressive values don't really gel that well with Biblical teachings from a lot of viewpoints. Homosexuality, women's equality, fornication outside of marriage, abortion and so on are all rather difficult to marry with more literal readings of Christianity.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:04 pm

Conservatism is about preserving tradition, and since every religion - not just Christianity - has it's own unique traditions it only makes sense that most conservatives prescribe to the religion they view as being "traditional" to their country. In the case of the U.S., that would be (Protestant) Christianity. Thus most conservatives in America are therefor (Protestant) Christians. It works the same everywhere else.

Not much more to it than that, really.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:06 pm

Albrenia wrote:Progressive values don't really gel that well with Biblical teachings from a lot of viewpoints. Homosexuality, women's equality, fornication outside of marriage, abortion and so on are all rather difficult to marry with more literal readings of Christianity.


Good thing you're not supposed to read scripture literally. ;)
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:07 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Albrenia wrote:Progressive values don't really gel that well with Biblical teachings from a lot of viewpoints. Homosexuality, women's equality, fornication outside of marriage, abortion and so on are all rather difficult to marry with more literal readings of Christianity.


Good thing you're not supposed to read scripture literally. ;)


I don't read it at all if I can help it. :p

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MineLegotia and Equestria
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Postby MineLegotia and Equestria » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:10 pm

From a Christian standpoint, they would want to conserve their traditions because the newer things that arrive are seen in suspicion. Especially if they go against the teachings they already have. Gay marriage is the prime example of that, you have Christians that support it and those who don't. And those who don't are often the conservatives, why? Because like in all religions, the Holy Books are seen as the Word of God - therefore true. Whatever challenges the Lord's word is therefore sinful and should be avoided. \

In my opinion, Conservatives are often people who believe in a proper basis of reality, that order on its own exists and should be preserved. Christianity's Bible is the basis of their beliefs and that beliefs create an order that they believe they need to preserve and expand upon.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:19 pm

MineLegotia and Equestria wrote:From a Christian standpoint, they would want to conserve their traditions because the newer things that arrive are seen in suspicion. Especially if they go against the teachings they already have. Gay marriage is the prime example of that, you have Christians that support it and those who don't. And those who don't are often the conservatives, why? Because like in all religions, the Holy Books are seen as the Word of God - therefore true. Whatever challenges the Lord's word is therefore sinful and should be avoided. \

In my opinion, Conservatives are often people who believe in a proper basis of reality, that order on its own exists and should be preserved. Christianity's Bible is the basis of their beliefs and that beliefs create an order that they believe they need to preserve and expand upon.


Christianity existed for 400 years before the Bible was even compiled. It is most certainly not the basis for our beliefs, nor is it the "Word of God". It is a collection of wisdom and teachings that are divinely inspired... as well as forgeries, fabrications, and political agenda-pushing. Simply put, it's just a book. It has a great deal of information in it that can help Christians live better lives or bring the Good News to non-believers but in the end it's still a book, written four-hundred years after the fact, compiled by corruptible, fallible, imperfect men who may very well have brought their own personal beliefs and agendas to the table when compiling it.

It should not be revered. When one reads the Bible, they should do so in a academic manner - with an even dose of skepticism and open-mindedness; not like a detective investigating a crime scene looking for the truth. The Christian Church, unfortunately, has a long history of corruption, hypocrisy, and outright heresy. Some things simply need to be taken with a grain of salt.
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MineLegotia and Equestria
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Postby MineLegotia and Equestria » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:34 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
-Snip-.

I will not argue with you on theological matters, previous threads have shown that religion + internet threads tend to equate moderation intervention in the end. The point is, while you believe we gotta read it in an academic manner, others may not.
If they believe it is the Word of God - just like me - they will act upon it as it is the Word of God. Most people interpret the Bible literally while some are interpret the meanings behind it.

Before we accidentally start arguing over Christian interpretations of the Bible and resulting in a warn for threadjacking, the point is that people read it as the Word of God, this means they believe from the Words of God Himself, He created an order which they - as the image of God on here - must act to expand and preserve upon.
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Postby Radiatia » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:39 pm

I've never really understood the connection myself though I'd add it seems to be an American thing and I certainly haven't seen the same "Religion = Conservative" connection in my part of the world.

Speaking for myself, I'm an atheist but politically conservative. I consider both positions to be a result of me holding a default position of scepticism - whether scepticism toward religious teachings, or scepticism of radical social change and policies that promote it.

By contrast, most of the politically progressive people I know and associate with are actually religious (e.g. Christians who feel compelled to vote for left-wing economic policies as they feel it best reflects their moral outlook, or Muslims who lean left due to the left's stance on immigration and multiculturalism).

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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:41 pm

Because conservatism was founded as a Christian movement, duh. You didn't need a thread for this, it's on wikipedia.
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Czechostan
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Postby Czechostan » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:51 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:If the poor believe it, they might be less inclined to do anything about greed here and now. So for comparison, here's one more map for you; poverty by state.

I'm not entirely convinced by that. Maybe for some people, but for a lot of people, Christianity and religion in general inspires them to do social work and help the poor. I'm thinking of people like Dorothy Day and organizations like Lutheran World Relief.

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Postby Geneviev » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:00 pm

They don't necessarily go together. Even at my most religious, I was a leftist based on the Bible. As for America, the people who are less educated tend to be more religious and conservative. You could probably see that those are the states with less education, although I'm not sure about that being true.
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Postby Salus Maior » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:03 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Christianity existed for 400 years before the Bible was even compiled. It is most certainly not the basis for our beliefs, nor is it the "Word of God". It is a collection of wisdom and teachings that are divinely inspired... as well as forgeries, fabrications, and political agenda-pushing. Simply put, it's just a book. It has a great deal of information in it that can help Christians live better lives or bring the Good News to non-believers but in the end it's still a book, written four-hundred years after the fact, compiled by corruptible, fallible, imperfect men who may very well have brought their own personal beliefs and agendas to the table when compiling it.

It should not be revered. When one reads the Bible, they should do so in a academic manner - with an even dose of skepticism and open-mindedness; not like a detective investigating a crime scene looking for the truth. The Christian Church, unfortunately, has a long history of corruption, hypocrisy, and outright heresy. Some things simply need to be taken with a grain of salt.


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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:11 pm

Geneviev wrote:They don't necessarily go together. Even at my most religious, I was a leftist based on the Bible. As for America, the people who are less educated tend to be more religious and conservative. You could probably see that those are the states with less education, although I'm not sure about that being true.


But they often do go together. Also I’ve met educated people who are extreme religious and conservative.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:17 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Geneviev wrote:They don't necessarily go together. Even at my most religious, I was a leftist based on the Bible. As for America, the people who are less educated tend to be more religious and conservative. You could probably see that those are the states with less education, although I'm not sure about that being true.


But they often do go together. Also I’ve met educated people who are extreme religious and conservative.

They don't really go together in Germany. It depends on the culture, probably. And those people do exist, but I don't know many of them.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:20 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
But they often do go together. Also I’ve met educated people who are extreme religious and conservative.

They don't really go together in Germany. It depends on the culture, probably. And those people do exist, but I don't know many of them.


It’s apparently losing ground there but it’s still identified with several ideologies and beliefs, Christianity included.
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:22 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Geneviev wrote:They don't really go together in Germany. It depends on the culture, probably. And those people do exist, but I don't know many of them.


It’s apparently losing ground there but it’s still identified with several ideologies and beliefs, Christianity included.

Christians tend to be social democrats most of the time for us. That definitely wouldn't be so common in America.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:27 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It’s apparently losing ground there but it’s still identified with several ideologies and beliefs, Christianity included.

Christians tend to be social democrats most of the time for us. That definitely wouldn't be so common in America.


Southern Germany seems to have the most Christian conservative voters. Particularly of CDU voters, making 29% of the 2019 EU votes and 33% of the 2017 Bundestag elections. Doesn’t sound too dissimilar to US Christian conservatives, including geographical region.

And isn’t Merkel a CDU member?
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:33 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Christians tend to be social democrats most of the time for us. That definitely wouldn't be so common in America.


Southern Germany seems to have the most Christian conservative voters. Particularly of CDU voters, making 29% of the 2019 EU votes and 33% of the 2017 Bundestag elections. Doesn’t sound too dissimilar to US Christian conservatives, including geographical region.

Those are Catholics. Protestants are the social democrats with about 25% if I remember correctly.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:38 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Southern Germany seems to have the most Christian conservative voters. Particularly of CDU voters, making 29% of the 2019 EU votes and 33% of the 2017 Bundestag elections. Doesn’t sound too dissimilar to US Christian conservatives, including geographical region.

Those are Catholics. Protestants are the social democrats with about 25% if I remember correctly.


I don’t think CDU is solely composed of Catholics, when it’s actually composed of people of various walks of life, including Protestants. But you say the opposite. Which is which? I’d like to see what someone living and voting in Germany has to say about this.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:41 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Those are Catholics. Protestants are the social democrats with about 25% if I remember correctly.


I don’t think CDU is solely composed of Catholics, when it’s actually composed of people of various walks of life, including Protestants. But you say the opposite. Which is which? I’d like to see what someone living and voting in Germany has to say about this.

The majority of Catholics support CDU and happen to be in southern Germany, and most Protestants are in the north and support SPD. And then the other parties are more complicated.
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:43 pm

I’m not sure that it does.

Speaking as somebody who was raised in a heavily conservative rural area but has lived in large progressive cities in the past few years:

I have extremely close friends who are both progressives and conservatives who I believe were sincere born again, spirit filled believers. And many progressives and conservatives who I feel need more of Christ in their lives.

Despite the stereotype of progressives being militantly atheist, a certain percentage of progressives tend to be more open-minded towards Christianity than irreligious or nominally Christian conservatives. Certainly, I’ve found it easier to talk about my faith with them. And if there’s pushback at least I know where they stand. For some reason it’s far more difficult in my experience to have this same honest discussion with conservatives I grew up with, who have been numbed to the message of the gospel thanks to overexposure after a lifetime in church, but cannot bring themselves to openly scrutinize or critique it either. Conversations about religion and faith tend to be far more awkward. Which brings me to another point.

Used to be most atheist and agnostic folks from progressive areas I met were former Christians who were raised in a church but left as adults. They’re cynical and disillusioned with the church and like church-going conservatives who don’t really know Christ, they’ve been numbed to the gospel. Nowadays I’m meeting an increasing large number of progressives who were raised in irreligious households, by atheist or agnostic parents. They have no history with the church and very little exposure to it, so they’re far more open minded to spiritual matters. I firmly believe these folks are the ones who will drive the next revival of Christianity in this country if one occurs. And this is going to happen in those areas with the largest and most uniformly atheistic and agnostic population groups, not say, west Texas.

On a final note, conservatives in every country tend to support religion because it’s traditional. They like traditional aspects of culture. That doesn’t mean all conservatives are genuinely religious (though many undoubtedly are).
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:46 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
I don’t think CDU is solely composed of Catholics, when it’s actually composed of people of various walks of life, including Protestants. But you say the opposite. Which is which? I’d like to see what someone living and voting in Germany has to say about this.

The majority of Catholics support CDU and happen to be in southern Germany, and most Protestants are in the north and support SPD. And then the other parties are more complicated.


Aren’t SPD and CDU sister parties?
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:49 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Geneviev wrote:The majority of Catholics support CDU and happen to be in southern Germany, and most Protestants are in the north and support SPD. And then the other parties are more complicated.


Aren’t SPD and CDU sister parties?

They form the GroKo together, but they are separate parties. CDU are Christian democrats and SPD are social democrats. You might be thinking of CSU.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:51 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Aren’t SPD and CDU sister parties?

They form the GroKo together, but they are separate parties. CDU are Christian democrats and SPD are social democrats. You might be thinking of CSU.


Could be.
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