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Is it ever justified to pretend awful people are also ugly?

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Is it ever justified to pretend awful people are also ugly?

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:02 pm

Another NSG-specific Valentine's thread. But in all seriousness, this sort of thing connects to Valentine's in a way I'll come back to later.

In the 2008 election cycle, I found it upsetting to see others on the left try to pretend Sarah Palin wasn't cute... even though she obviously was, at least at the time. But it left open to interpretation whether it was that they were referring to appearance or interpreted the supposed definition of "cute," rightly or wrongly, as inherently requiring actual innocence to go with it.

Then after the election cycle, there was all that kerfluffle over "fat jokes" directed Meghan McCain's way, even though she was curvy in an attractive way. Now, full disclosure, in THIS case, I don't think Meghan McCain's as "awful" as she's made out to be anyway. I think she's a genuinely well-intentioned conservative. But the notion that she's unattractive is even more ridiculous anyway. And she knows that, or she wouldn't continue to choose outfits that show off her body.

Of course, it's not just the left that does this. You can compare two libertarians; Penn Jillette and Ben Garrison, in how they describe Michelle Obama. (FEB 17 EDIT: For the record, I am not calling Michelle Obama an awful person; sorry if my word choice made it look like that; but the libertarian worldview might bias those who have it into thinking of her as a worse person than others might think she is.) Penn Jillette, for instance, admits she's beautiful, (half a minute after the timestamp, though I recommend listening to the half-minute for context) while Ben Garrison pretends she's less attractive than Melania Trump, which is, quite frankly, absurd. It's possible this comes down to a genuine difference of opinion, but I think it's more likely down to a difference in honesty, given Penn Jillette's history of owning up to screw-ups in disputes with bloggers. (FEB 17 EDIT: Also, fixed typo.)

And then when people try to do the opposite; like calling a white nationalist "dapper;" people give 'em shit for it.

So yeah. A pattern has quite clearly been established. People are apparently supposed to conceal not only attraction to them, but also fear of their ability to use their looks on behalf of their ideas.

I suppose maybe the idea is that acknowledging their attractiveness gives them more power than they would otherwise have, but I'm not sure how you could prove that. How do you distinguish that from, let's say, the way we could offset this power if we were to discuss this out in the open? Is it at all analogous to pretending you don't notice someone's carrying a firearm, because acknowledging it would give them power, even though their actions prove they already know they're carrying it?

And even if it could be proven, would it still be okay to do this? You're sabotaging honesty itself (not to mention embittering voters who happen to be unattractive to your political movements) on behalf of a power play built on lies?

I post this on Valentine's not just because it's vaguely related to it, but also because a lot of my views on both dating AND social issues were shaped by some of the same webforum discussions in which I lurked. To see others expressing opinions similar to my own and then get smeared as someone who "couldn't get laid," I looked back on my old middle school years, in which I probably would've gotten laid if I got over my obsession with the girl I wanted and let the ones who wanted me have me, and I thought "hmm... what else could they be wrong about?"
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Corindia
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Postby Corindia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:17 pm

Can you please list some other politicians and talking heads you find attractive? Just for some context

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:17 pm

Never need to pretend.

When I was a lad and on the prowl; I can say I ran into some rather beautiful girls. As the discussions went well; they would relax and say some rather nasty things (one comes to mind about gays and blacks). She turned ugly right before my eyes.

A person can look beautiful and that can get squashed quick when you talk to them.

Same with pictures, movies and TV. You with think Arnold "get to the chopper" would be a cool dude. In person he is an ass.

Now Jason Mamoa? He is a cool dude! :D
Last edited by The Black Forrest on Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:25 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Never need to pretend.

When I was a lad and on the prowl; I can say I ran into some rather beautiful girls. As the discussions went well; they would relax and say some rather nasty things (one comes to mind about gays and blacks). She turned ugly right before my eyes.

A person can look beautiful and that can get squashed quick when you talk to them.

Same with pictures, movies and TV. You with think Arnold "get to the chopper" would be a cool dude. In person he is an ass.

Now Jason Mamoa? He is a cool dude! :D

Beauty isnt just skin deep. The more I like them the prettier they get. Although I will say hillary was a good looking woman in her day.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:27 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Never need to pretend.

When I was a lad and on the prowl; I can say I ran into some rather beautiful girls. As the discussions went well; they would relax and say some rather nasty things (one comes to mind about gays and blacks). She turned ugly right before my eyes.

A person can look beautiful and that can get squashed quick when you talk to them.

Same with pictures, movies and TV. You with think Arnold "get to the chopper" would be a cool dude. In person he is an ass.

Now Jason Mamoa? He is a cool dude! :D

Beauty isnt just skin deep. The more I like them the prettier they get. Although I will say hillary was a good looking woman in her day.


Indeed. My sainted aunt once told me "If there is one thing to remember about finding the love of your life; look to what's inside as looks will fade." She liked my wife :)
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Postby Cekoviu » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:33 pm

Honestly, most of my attraction to people is dependent on me getting to know them (hence, their personality). So I wouldn't say awful people are inherently ugly, but I also can't say they're attractive to me.
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Postby Minimark » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:36 pm

I believe that an awful person can still be attractive or beautiful but we shouldn't classify people by outward appearance but by character (were all human so its hard)

On an unrelated note, Our King Maxwell Barry is the most handsome being ever

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Postby Necroghastia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:38 pm

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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:21 pm

Oftentimes, the opinions or beliefs a person hold and that someone finds objectionable does indeed affect their attractiveness for some people. It’s perhaps better to say “they’re attractive but their way of thinking is not”.
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Postby Vetalia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Of course, it's not just the left that does this. You can compare two libertarians; Penn Jillette and Ben Garrison, in how they describe Michelle Obama. Penn Jillette, for instance, admits she's beautiful, (half a minute after the timestamp, though I recommend listening to the half-minute for context) while Ben Garrison pretends she's less attractive than Melania Trump, which is, quite frankly, absurd. It's possible this comes down to a genuine difference of opinion, but I think it's more likely down to a difference in honesty, given Penn Jillette's history of history of owning up to screw-ups in disputes with bloggers.


Ben Garrison wasn't saying Michelle Obama was ugly, he was pretty obviously referencing the anti-Obama meme that Michelle is actually a man. Surprised he didn't call her "Michael" in the caption...of course, then again he also draws Trump as a young, muscular, barrel-chested Aryan superman rather than the obese old man he actually is.
Last edited by Vetalia on Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bear Stearns » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:16 pm

Necroghastia wrote:(Image)


I unironically agree
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Postby Kowani » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:08 am

Necroghastia wrote:(Image)

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Postby Imperial Joseon » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:10 am

Minimark wrote:I believe that an awful person can still be attractive or beautiful but we shouldn't classify people by outward appearance but by character (were all human so its hard)

On an unrelated note, Our King Maxwell Barry is the most handsome being ever


I mean, look at celebrities. They are pretty, but some of them do some really bad things.
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Postby Urlendia » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:09 am

Maybe more in the opposite direction, but why should it be bad to be ugly?
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Postby Imperial Joseon » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:20 am

Urlendia wrote:Maybe more in the opposite direction, but why should it be bad to be ugly?


Getting jobs may be harder. it's an etiquette to look pretty, either by makeup or by nature.
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Postby -Astoria » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:23 am

Necroghastia wrote:https://lucyjaneedharvey.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/wpid-7f58a205ac1d393800823f8cfa049abb.jpg?w=840

This.
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Urlendia
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Postby Urlendia » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:27 am

Imperial Joseon wrote:
Urlendia wrote:Maybe more in the opposite direction, but why should it be bad to be ugly?


Getting jobs may be harder. it's an etiquette to look pretty, either by makeup or by nature.


Yeah, I know about the social stigma against people who aren't conventionally attractive. I do feel though, that instead of saying "Oh no, you're pretty!" when people say that they're ugly, why can't we accept that yeah - some people are ugly, but that's okay. I say this as someone who isn't generally considered conventionally attractive, but I'm fine with it. There are other aspects of me that I like more, and I think that in turn makes me attrative.
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Postby Imperial Joseon » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:32 am

Urlendia wrote:
Yeah, I know about the social stigma against people who aren't conventionally attractive. I do feel though, that instead of saying "Oh no, you're pretty!" when people say that they're ugly, why can't we accept that yeah - some people are ugly, but that's okay. I say this as someone who isn't generally considered conventionally attractive, but I'm fine with it. There are other aspects of me that I like more, and I think that in turn makes me attrative.


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Postby Red Roja » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:46 am

I like to pretend that pretty people are pretty and ugly people are ugly.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:02 am

Urlendia wrote:Maybe more in the opposite direction, but why should it be bad to be ugly?

They dont give out paper bags in the supermarket anymore
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Imperial Joseon
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Postby Imperial Joseon » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:04 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Urlendia wrote:Maybe more in the opposite direction, but why should it be bad to be ugly?

They dont give out paper bags in the supermarket anymore


Masks are an alternative.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:38 pm

Facial expressions communicating certain emotions are pretty ugly to look at. There's also the fact that your attraction to a person is kind of an amalgamation of benchmark moments where you adjust their "score" on the fly. A high emotional intensity moment where they're looking ugly because they have hate on their face is going to stand out in your memory and be one of the major moments you use to define them in your perception of them. Even if Terry is a nice guy 99.9% of the time, it's difficult not to let the time you saw him beat up a homeless person snarling about street trash define your perception of him, and its the memory brought to mind when you see him. The snarling, spit flecks, eyes bulging, vein popping anger moment.

Awful people who manage to control their outward appearance during doing heinous things (Like smiling peacefully and warmly while drowning a puppy) come across as frightening on a visceral level rather than ugly per se, but they aren't attractive then either because at that point the major takeaway is that this person is predatory, dangerous at all times without warning, manipulative, and cannot be trusted. You see them and don't think "I want to tap that" and more "I want to move away and buy new locks"

Earnestly doing something terrible while also not having a negative emotional impetus for it might be the only way around it and in my experience those people are not deemed ugly as readily as the others.

Those are extreme examples but the principle holds.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Neanderthaland » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:49 pm

I don't know if "justified" is the right word.

Negatively focusing on someone's appearance is a scummy thing to do in most contexts. And usually says a lot more about you, then it does about them.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:42 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:Facial expressions communicating certain emotions are pretty ugly to look at. There's also the fact that your attraction to a person is kind of an amalgamation of benchmark moments where you adjust their "score" on the fly. A high emotional intensity moment where they're looking ugly because they have hate on their face is going to stand out in your memory and be one of the major moments you use to define them in your perception of them.

Er... quite frankly, the very character in your avatar is one who's known to look adorable even when she's angry. I get your point; emotional reaction to their expressions can be a factor in your attraction to them or lack thereof; but it's obviously not the only factor, and the same expression will feel different from one person/character than another...
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Postby Argotera » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:04 pm

If someone's a jerk I don't usually praise them with "pretty" even if it's true. Imagine opinions would be similar. Other wise you'd be giving the opposition credit, of some kind, and der cAn'T bE nOtHiNg wRonG wiTh MuH 'pinions.

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