Should the Megali idea in Greece be returned?

[Ayytaly]

Should the UK be returned to the Celts?

[Nakena]

Should the UK be returned to the Celts?

CELTIC EMPIRE

[Britannia Maior]

Should the UK be returned to the Celts?

CELTIC EMPIRE

I’d only accept that if said empire is (reformed) pagan, pays homage to Brenin Arthur (King Arthur) and was in some form pan British Isles nationalist and unionist

[Rojava Free State]

CELTIC EMPIRE

I’d only accept that if said empire is (reformed) pagan, pays homage to Brenin Arthur (King Arthur) and was in some form pan British Isles nationalist and unionist

IRA: *confused screeching*

UDA:*confused screeching*

[Farnhamia]

Should the UK be returned to the Celts?

Not the topic.

[Page]

Irredentism is bad, mmkay. It causes wars.

Not unless it is getting your land back.

Like with South Tyrol, and Constantinople.

I went to South Tyrol on my honeymoon. They speak German there and being part of the EU they can cross borders as they please. Italy isn't really interfering with their autonomy.

[Vistulange]

Not unless it is getting your land back.

Like with South Tyrol, and Constantinople.

I went to South Tyrol on my honeymoon. They speak German there and being part of the EU they can cross borders as they please. Italy isn't really interfering with their autonomy.

Amazingly, sometimes people do not care about "getting land back". Sometimes, people just want to live a good life, without poverty, without wars, and without unnecessary conflict. How stupid is that! Surely revanchism promises them all of that, and more.

[North German Realm]

I went to South Tyrol on my honeymoon. They speak German there and being part of the EU they can cross borders as they please. Italy isn't really interfering with their autonomy.

Amazingly, sometimes people do not care about "getting land back". Sometimes, people just want to live a good life, without poverty, without wars, and without unnecessary conflict. How stupid is that! Surely revanchism promises them all of that, and more.

Revanchism as a serious political position only and only pops up when a territory is taken from a state and the people living in said territory are mistreated by their new overlords. It almost consistently pops up when the people (of the correct culture) in said regions want to return to their previous country. Whenever revanchism as a political position becomes relevant in a country, it's uniquely and decisively because the people in said land are not having a good life without poverty and are willing to risk war in a necessary conflict so they can.

Of course, this particular position doesn't become relevant in Greece and the Megali Idea because there are almost no culturally Greek people left in said region.

[Rio Cana]

The only territorial changes Turkey needs is independence for the Kurds and Mount Ararat for the Armenians. Everything on the western bits are pretty solid and don’t need touching up.

The Armenians also need a strip of land to the sea that would be located between Georgia and Turkey. But with the Azerbaijan oil pipeline crossing through that strip, I think Turkey would not be interested in giving it up. Currently, Turkey and Azerbaijan have had for 27 years this April there border with Armenia closed. This includes land communication. This represents 80% of the Armenian border. Remember, Armenia is landlocked. So there only land connection to the world is via Georgia and Iran. The Armenian - Iran border is really short, there is only one crossing, but supplies Armenia with gas and oil via pipelines.

[Heloin]

The only territorial changes Turkey needs is independence for the Kurds and Mount Ararat for the Armenians. Everything on the western bits are pretty solid and don’t need touching up.

The Armenians also need a strip of land to the sea that would be located between Georgia and Turkey. But with the Azerbaijan oil pipeline crossing through that strip, I think Turkey would not be interested in giving it up. Currently, Turkey and Azerbaijan have had for 27 years this April there border with Armenia closed. This includes land communication. This represents 80% of the Armenian border. Remember, Armenia is landlocked. So there only land connection to the world is via Georgia and Iran. The Armenian - Iran border is really short, there is only one crossing, but supplies Armenia with gas and oil via pipelines.

I think Georgia and Turkey supporting Armenia in regards to Artsakh and supporting Armenia over Azerbaijan would be more then enough.

[Farnhamia]

The Armenians also need a strip of land to the sea that would be located between Georgia and Turkey. But with the Azerbaijan oil pipeline crossing through that strip, I think Turkey would not be interested in giving it up. Currently, Turkey and Azerbaijan have had for 27 years this April there border with Armenia closed. This includes land communication. This represents 80% of the Armenian border. Remember, Armenia is landlocked. So there only land connection to the world is via Georgia and Iran. The Armenian - Iran border is really short, there is only one crossing, but supplies Armenia with gas and oil via pipelines.

I think Georgia and Turkey supporting Armenia in regards to Artsakh and supporting Armenia over Azerbaijan would be more then enough.

It would but it ain't going to happen. *drags the thread closer to the actual topic* And the Greeks aren't going to get Constantinople back. More people live in that city's metropolitan area than live in ... Greece.

[Major-Tom]

In our modern world, do these grandiose ideas about former national glory really matter anymore? Greece now is a far cry from Greece in the past.

[Ayytaly]

In our modern world, do these grandiose ideas about former national glory really matter anymore? Greece now is a far cry from Greece in the past.

The past world was much more diverse than it is now.

[Neanderthaland]

In our modern world, do these grandiose ideas about former national glory really matter anymore? Greece now is a far cry from Greece in the past.

The past world was much more diverse than it is now.

Yes, because if there's one thing that expansionist militarist nationalists care about, it's diversity.

[Ayytaly]

The past world was much more diverse than it is now.

Yes, because if there's one thing that expansionist militarist nationalists care about, it's diversity.

Missing the point entirely.

[Neanderthaland]

Yes, because if there's one thing that expansionist militarist nationalists care about, it's diversity.

Missing the point entirely.

Well what is the point, exactly? Because you're not getting that diversity back from endorsing said nationalists. And if you're not proposing that, then it's an entirely pointless comment to make.

[Ayytaly]

Missing the point entirely.

Well what is the point, exactly? Because you're not getting that diversity back from endorsing said nationalists. And if you're not proposing that, then it's an entirely pointless comment to make.

You really don't get it, do you? The past wars, the immigration crisis, austerity, etc. Greece went from being a bastion and cradle of modern Western civilization to yet another EU member having to ask Germany (historical home of your fellow caveman-like barbarians that fell Rome and ushered the Dark Ages) if they can have some money. It's no longer independent nor unique beyond its history and accomplishments. That's what I meant by "diverse."

[Neanderthaland]

Well what is the point, exactly? Because you're not getting that diversity back from endorsing said nationalists. And if you're not proposing that, then it's an entirely pointless comment to make.

You really don't get it, do you? The past wars, the immigration crisis, austerity, etc. Greece went from being a bastion and cradle of modern Western civilization to yet another EU member having to ask Germany (historical home of your fellow caveman-like barbarians that fell Rome and ushered the Dark Ages) if they can have some money. It's no longer independent nor unique beyond its history and accomplishments. That's what I meant by "diverse."

What does this have to do with Megali?

[North German Realm]

Well what is the point, exactly? Because you're not getting that diversity back from endorsing said nationalists. And if you're not proposing that, then it's an entirely pointless comment to make.

You really don't get it, do you? The past wars, the immigration crisis, austerity, etc. Greece went from being a bastion and cradle of modern Western civilization to yet another EU member having to ask Germany (historical home of your fellow caveman-like barbarians that fell Rome and ushered the Dark Ages) if they can have some money. It's no longer independent nor unique beyond its history and accomplishments. That's what I meant by "diverse."

The Greece that was "a bastion and cradle of modern Western civilization" died when the Romans got to it. The Megali Idea is from approximately 2000 years after that point.

[The East Marches II]

They won the war. That is all the legitimacy they needed. The West gave them a fancy treaty too.

Yeah, it shouldn't have.

Perhaps the Greeks should have fought harder then!

[North German Realm]

Yeah, it shouldn't have.

Perhaps the Greeks should have fought harder then!

I mean in reality, it wouldn't have mattered. Turks had at least twice the population of Greece and were superior in equipment. Of course, the fact that certain countries did not fulfill their obligations to various international treaties and didn't come to Greece's aid in any useful capacity didn't help either.

[The East Marches II]

Perhaps the Greeks should have fought harder then!

I mean in reality, it wouldn't have mattered. Turks had at least twice the population of Greece and were superior in equipment. Of course, the fact that certain countries did not fulfill their obligations to various international treaties and didn't come to Greece's aid in any useful capacity didn't help either.

The Turks were on their knees after nearly 10 years of constant warfare and had to resort to conscripting 15 year olds. They were tapped of manpower, bankrupt and had only backing from the Soviet Union. The Greeks had fresh troops, plenty of supplies, trucks and the infinite ammo cheat from Britain.

They had their world historical chance and fucking blew it. I have zero pity for them.

[Vistulange]

I mean in reality, it wouldn't have mattered. Turks had at least twice the population of Greece and were superior in equipment. Of course, the fact that certain countries did not fulfill their obligations to various international treaties and didn't come to Greece's aid in any useful capacity didn't help either.

The Turks were on their knees after nearly 10 years of constant warfare and had to resort to conscripting 15 year olds. They were tapped of manpower, bankrupt and had only backing from the Soviet Union. The Greeks had fresh troops, plenty of supplies, trucks and the infinite ammo cheat from Britain.

They had their world historical chance and fucking blew it. I have zero pity for them.

Admittedly, the nationalist government in Ankara played the diplomatic game perfectly, maneouvering the great powers so that they only ever had to fight two weaker (in terms of population and resources) opponents: Greece and Armenia.

That doesn't make NGR's constant - and at this point, completely bland - droning about how Turkey should have been wiped out and the clay given to rightful Greece any more bearable. Seriously, in such threads involving Turkey, all the fellow contributes is "meh Turkey bad, it should go to [insert preferred nation of the day]" and not much else.

[Baltenstein]

Our defeat in the 1922 War was largely self-inflicted.

For starters, leading a campaign into the middle of Asia Minor, far behind what the Greek state could realistically have controlled logistically (instead of concentrating on the coasts and Constantinople, like later dictator Metaxas had advised), was stupid in itself.
Then, In a tragically characteristic display of geopolitical autism, Greeks in 1920 voted Eleftherios Venizelos - the prime minister who had led Greece victoriously through the Balkan Wars and WW1 and had secured Britain's reliable support - out of office, in the middle of the war (one basic rule of government is that you don't change it in the middle of a war effort) and brought King Constantine, aka the guy who had previously sided with the Central Powers, back to power, which was intrepreted as a middle finger by the Allied Powers and got the expected response in kind (It was also interpreted as a middle finger by the Asia Minor Greeks and did wonders for their morale). Constantine's government then proceeded to purge the experienced Venizelist officer corps - again, in the middle of the war effort - while Ataturk was consolidating his forces and progressively securing the support of the Soviet Union, France, Italy and Britain, in that order. With the Greek army then continuing to try (and fail) to hold an indefensible frontline instead of withdrawing to the region around Smyrna/Izmir and forcing a patt there.

Sure, sometimes hindsight is 20/20, but sometimes the reason is just plain old diplomatic and strategic incompetence.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the anti-venizelist government had basically won the 1920 elections with promises of ending the war in Asia Minor (keep in mind that Greece at that point had been in a state of quasi non-stop warfare since 1912) but then chose to continue it instead, only with a more incompetent leadership and without international support. Head, meet wall.

(At least, some people were later held accountable for the whole clusterfuck.)

[Infected Mushroom]

Our defeat in the 1922 War was largely self-inflicted.

For starters, leading a campaign into the middle of Asia Minor, far behind what the Greek state could realistically have controlled logistically (instead of concentrating on the coasts and Constantinople, like later dictator Metaxas had advised), was stupid in itself.
Then, In a tragically characteristic display of geopolitical autism, Greeks in 1920 voted Eleftherios Venizelos - the prime minister who had led Greece victoriously through the Balkan Wars and WW1 and had secured Britain's reliable support - out of office, in the middle of the war (one basic rule of government is that you don't change it in the middle of a war effort) and brought King Constantine, aka the guy who had previously sided with the Central Powers, back to power, which was intrepreted as a middle finger by the Allied Powers and got the expected response in kind (It was also interpreted as a middle finger by the Asia Minor Greeks and did wonders for their morale). Constantine's government then proceeded to purge the experienced Venizelist officer corps - again, in the middle of the war effort - while Ataturk was consolidating his forces and progressively securing the support of the Soviet Union, France, Italy and Britain, in that order. With the Greek army then continuing to try (and fail) to hold an indefensible frontline instead of withdrawing to the region around Smyrna/Izmir and forcing a patt there.

Sure, sometimes hindsight is 20/20, but sometimes the reason is just plain old diplomatic and strategic incompetence.

If only Greece had another Trojan Horse.

History may have been changed.