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American healthcare is going to fix itself

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Iwassoclose
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American healthcare is going to fix itself

Postby Iwassoclose » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:54 pm

And what I mean by that is they are gonna price out the majority of the people and change the paradigm of how the right view insurance and public health care.

A few months back I found out that recently there has been a sharp increase in hospitals suing people. Even when people do have insurance, the copay is so high that they cant pay and get chased by the hospital for the money. The reason of course is the games that insurance companies and hospitals play by overcharging and then negotiating a smaller payment for the bill has created a cycle where prices of services and goods inflate rapidly. The prices have reached so high that even when the insurance covers most of it, the bills still come to thousands of dollars and most people cannot cover that.

Before the conservative's reason for eschewing public or universal healthcare was that they already paid into their insurance and that further taxation for healthcare would be a deal breaker for any plans to create said universal healthcare service. Now however with the rapid rise of hospitals suing patients I hope they continue. I hope they become what Trump is to politics and normalize what seemed like radical ideas thus creating an environment where people like Sanders can thrive and get support for what used to be considered outlier ideas such as universal health care.

Do you agree?

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Postby Aclion » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:17 pm

You have to be pretty fucking low to hope sick people are ripped off so that you can win an election.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:01 pm

Aclion wrote:You have to be pretty fucking low to hope sick people are ripped off so that you can win an election.


Too bad that’s not what he said.
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Postby Aclion » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:13 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Aclion wrote:You have to be pretty fucking low to hope sick people are ripped off so that you can win an election.


Too bad that what he said.

I hope they continue. I hope they become what Trump is to politics and normalize what seemed like radical ideas thus creating an environment where people like Sanders can thrive

That do indeed be what he said. Yeah, it's pretty bad.
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:15 pm

Beyond the provision of a public option which covers all citizens, government has no place in healthcare.
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Page
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Postby Page » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:56 am

Sundiata wrote:Beyond the provision of a public option, government has no place in healthcare.


Why should private insurance providers have any place in health care? It's nothing more than an unnecessary middle man making money without offering anything.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:07 am

Page wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Beyond the provision of a public option, government has no place in healthcare.


Why should private insurance providers have any place in health care? It's nothing more than an unnecessary middle man making money without offering anything.

Because they offer a lot, especially the most expensive plans.
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Postby Cameroi » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:11 am

Sundiata wrote:
Page wrote:
Why should private insurance providers have any place in health care? It's nothing more than an unnecessary middle man making money without offering anything.

Because they offer a lot, especially the most expensive plans.

they offer the real death panels, because little green pieces of paper are more important to them then human life.
they offer life is only for the highest bidder.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:14 am

Iwassoclose wrote:And what I mean by that is they are gonna price out the majority of the people and change the paradigm of how the right view insurance and public health care.

A few months back I found out that recently there has been a sharp increase in hospitals suing people. Even when people do have insurance, the copay is so high that they cant pay and get chased by the hospital for the money. The reason of course is the games that insurance companies and hospitals play by overcharging and then negotiating a smaller payment for the bill has created a cycle where prices of services and goods inflate rapidly. The prices have reached so high that even when the insurance covers most of it, the bills still come to thousands of dollars and most people cannot cover that.

Before the conservative's reason for eschewing public or universal healthcare was that they already paid into their insurance and that further taxation for healthcare would be a deal breaker for any plans to create said universal healthcare service. Now however with the rapid rise of hospitals suing patients I hope they continue. I hope they become what Trump is to politics and normalize what seemed like radical ideas thus creating an environment where people like Sanders can thrive and get support for what used to be considered outlier ideas such as universal health care.

Do you agree?


No. Charging out of pocket expenses at a much higher rate than insurers pay needs an immediate solution. Like banning it. Or perhaps appointing a collective bargainer for anyone incurring over a threshold of costs.

If the solution you propose is "get Sanders elected and implement universal health care" then frankly you've got no solution at all. You've let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and to boot overstated the ability of a President to legislate.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:24 am

Cameroi wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Because they offer a lot, especially the most expensive plans.

they offer the real death panels, because little green pieces of paper are more important to them then human life.
they offer life is only for the highest bidder.

Well, to be fair, the American system is not completely privatized. It's semi-private, semi-public.

The United States needs a completely public option for all who want it that competes with largely deregulated, unsubsidized, private insurers.

The United States can achieve universal healthcare coverage while at the same time ensuring the economic freedom of its citizens.
Last edited by Sundiata on Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:46 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:10 am

Sundiata wrote:
Cameroi wrote:they offer the real death panels, because little green pieces of paper are more important to them then human life.
they offer life is only for the highest bidder.

Well, to be fair, the American system is not completely privatized. It's semi-private, semi-public.

The United States needs a completely public option for all who want it that competes with largely deregulated, unsubsidized, private insurers.

The United States can achieve universal healthcare coverage while at the same time ensuring the economic freedom of its citizens.

How? Our esteemed overlords are looking to cut Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security -- you know, things WE ACTUALLY PAY IN TO, because they can't fucking budget and NOT spend money like a drunken sailor.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:42 am

Katganistan wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Well, to be fair, the American system is not completely privatized. It's semi-private, semi-public.

The United States needs a completely public option for all who want it that competes with largely deregulated, unsubsidized, private insurers.

The United States can achieve universal healthcare coverage while at the same time ensuring the economic freedom of its citizens.

How? Our esteemed overlords are looking to cut Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security -- you know, things WE ACTUALLY PAY IN TO, because they can't fucking budget and NOT spend money like a drunken sailor.

Well, this is a battle that's being fought politically to this day, largely within the Democratic Party. If you're a democrat, vote for the candidate that has the best healthcare plan.

Medicare and Medicaid should be lumped into a single public system accessible to all citizens, the programs as they exist today have too much red tape.
Last edited by Sundiata on Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:19 am

Page wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Beyond the provision of a public option, government has no place in healthcare.


Why should private insurance providers have any place in health care? It's nothing more than an unnecessary middle man making money without offering anything.


Because they provide people with options. And in many cases are superior to the government options. If they are inferior people will not buy them anyways. I would rather have Blue Cross the Medicare, which is not the greatest. But I would rather have Medicare than nothing.

Although I do support a government subsidized option for all those who want it or do not have healthcare. Medicare should be available to all who want and need it, but not forced on those that do not want or need it. And people should be allowed to provide additional and supplemental plans if the choose. (Because Medicare is mediocre at best, many people in it already get a supplemental plan). A problem with Medicare for all is Medicare is not very good.

And some of the most successful systems in the world have a combination of public and private plans.

Having Medicare available to all who do not have sufficient coverage from an alternative source is good. It will force the the private companies to behave better (because people have an alternative) yet at the same time also give people an option.

While ensuring universal coverage.
Last edited by Novus America on Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Luziyca » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:21 am

Yes, American healthcare is going to fix itself, much in the same way that American infrastructure will fix itself: it won't.
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The of Korea
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Postby The of Korea » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:22 am

Luziyca wrote:Yes, American healthcare is going to fix itself, much in the same way that American infrastructure will fix itself: it won't.

indeed.

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:25 am

Sundiata wrote:
Page wrote:
Why should private insurance providers have any place in health care? It's nothing more than an unnecessary middle man making money without offering anything.

Because they offer a lot, especially the most expensive plans.


Then why does the majority of the world have some form of Universal Healthcare?
The US is the only industrial nation not to have some form of Universal Healthcare.

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Postby Nuroblav » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:30 am

Coming from a country with a national health service (with a very inspirational name), I do support universal healthcare. But I'd disagree with the title and I doubt American healthcare will fix itself any time soon.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:33 am

Celritannia wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Because they offer a lot, especially the most expensive plans.


Then why does the majority of the world have some form of Universal Healthcare?
The US is the only industrial nation not to have some form of Universal Healthcare.


The majority of the world does not. The majority of the world is not highly developed.
Universal healthcare does not require a single payer system, or preclude the existence of private plans. Many countries with universal healthcare like Germany have a mixture of public and private plans.

Yes the US should have universal healthcare but that does not mean we have to ban private plans, which often are superior to government ones in coverage (but not necessarily availability.

Just as having public schools does not preclude having private schools you can have both.

Although we need to merge Medicare, Medicaid and CHIP into a single program available to everyone who does not have sufficient healthcare from other sources, which would ensure universal coverage, we should not mandate it be the only one available.
Last edited by Novus America on Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:02 am

Novus America wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Then why does the majority of the world have some form of Universal Healthcare?
The US is the only industrial nation not to have some form of Universal Healthcare.


The majority of the world does not. The majority of the world is not highly developed.
Universal healthcare does not require a single payer system, or preclude the existence of private plans. Many countries with universal healthcare like Germany have a mixture of public and private plans.

Yes the US should have universal healthcare but that does not mean we have to ban private plans, which often are superior to government ones in coverage (but not necessarily availability.

Just as having public schools does not preclude having private schools you can have both.

Although we need to merge Medicare, Medicaid and CHIP into a single program available to everyone who does not have sufficient healthcare from other sources, which would ensure universal coverage, we should not mandate it be the only one available.


Universal Healthcare is a general term which means some form of assistance for healthcare which includes the NHS system and a Universal Insurance System like Germany.
Universal Healthcare is not just Nationalised Healthcare

Universal healthcare does not imply coverage for all people for everything, only that all people have access to healthcare. Some universal healthcare systems are government funded, while others are based on a requirement that all citizens purchase private health insurance. Universal healthcare can be determined by three critical dimensions: who is covered, what services are covered, and how much of the cost is covered.[1] It is described by the World Health Organization as a situation where citizens can access health services without incurring financial hardship.[2]


- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

I also never said the world was highly developed either. I am just saying the US is the only developed country not to have UHS.

So here is a map showing all the countries of the world. The majority of them do have a Universal Healthcare System of some sort:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... 191229.svg
Last edited by Celritannia on Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:12 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:21 am

Celritannia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The majority of the world does not. The majority of the world is not highly developed.
Universal healthcare does not require a single payer system, or preclude the existence of private plans. Many countries with universal healthcare like Germany have a mixture of public and private plans.

Yes the US should have universal healthcare but that does not mean we have to ban private plans, which often are superior to government ones in coverage (but not necessarily availability.

Just as having public schools does not preclude having private schools you can have both.

Although we need to merge Medicare, Medicaid and CHIP into a single program available to everyone who does not have sufficient healthcare from other sources, which would ensure universal coverage, we should not mandate it be the only one available.


Universal Healthcare is a general term which means some form of assistance for healthcare which includes the NHS system and a Universal Insurance System like Germany.
Universal Healthcare is not just Nationalised Healthcare

Universal healthcare does not imply coverage for all people for everything, only that all people have access to healthcare. Some universal healthcare systems are government funded, while others are based on a requirement that all citizens purchase private health insurance. Universal healthcare can be determined by three critical dimensions: who is covered, what services are covered, and how much of the cost is covered.[1] It is described by the World Health Organization as a situation where citizens can access health services without incurring financial hardship.[2]


- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

I also never said the world was highly developed either. I am just saying the US is the only developed country not to have UHS.

So here is a map showing all the countries of the world. The majority of them do have a Universal Healthcare System of some sort:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... 191229.svg


I am aware universal healthcare coverage does not require a single payer nationalized system.
That was my point. We can and should have universal coverage without banning private plans.
My proposal would do that.

Fair enough on that map, though it has problems (the US should be marked as blue as we do have government funded systems just they do not provide universal coverage) although it should be noted in many cases the “universal coverage systems” in those countries really exist only on paper only, in many cases the (like Russia) “universal coverage” is so limited and low quality that while theoretically available to all it is not actually the case.

But yes we should have universal healthcare.
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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:23 am

Novus America wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Universal Healthcare is a general term which means some form of assistance for healthcare which includes the NHS system and a Universal Insurance System like Germany.
Universal Healthcare is not just Nationalised Healthcare



- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

I also never said the world was highly developed either. I am just saying the US is the only developed country not to have UHS.

So here is a map showing all the countries of the world. The majority of them do have a Universal Healthcare System of some sort:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... 191229.svg


I am aware universal healthcare coverage does not require a single payer nationalized system.
That was my point. We can and should have universal coverage without banning private plans.
My proposal would do that.

Fair enough on that map, though it has problems (the US should be marked as blue as we do have government funded systems just they do not provide universal coverage) although it should be noted in many cases the “universal coverage systems” in those countries really exist only on paper only, in many cases the (like Russia) “universal coverage” is so limited and low quality that while theoretically available to all it is not actually the case.

But yes we should have universal healthcare.


Well, even in the UK, there are still private health companies like BUPA and VitalityHealth.
So even in countries with an NHS, private healthcare is still an option, that isn't removed.
Last edited by Celritannia on Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ethan Allen
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Postby Ethan Allen » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:25 am

I do not agree with the OP.

The American healthcare system is indeed in need of fixing. However, the only approach I would support is one that follows a free market approach, free from the molestation of government with its taxes and regulations.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:26 am

Celritannia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
I am aware universal healthcare coverage does not require a single payer nationalized system.
That was my point. We can and should have universal coverage without banning private plans.
My proposal would do that.

Fair enough on that map, though it has problems (the US should be marked as blue as we do have government funded systems just they do not provide universal coverage) although it should be noted in many cases the “universal coverage systems” in those countries really exist only on paper only, in many cases the (like Russia) “universal coverage” is so limited and low quality that while theoretically available to all it is not actually the case.

But yes we should have universal healthcare.


Well, even in the UK, there are still private health companies, like BUPA.


True, the issue was earlier someone asked why private health companies should exist at all.
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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:28 am

Ethan Allen wrote:I do not agree with the OP.

The American healthcare system is indeed in need of fixing. However, the only approach I would support is one that follows a free market approach, free from the molestation of government with its taxes and regulations.


Yeah, no. That's a terrible idea.
If you look above, there are links provided to show how a Universal Healthcare system is actually beneficial.
And countries like Japan and Germany have Universal Insurance where the Government sets the rates and subsidise those that cannot afford.

Private companies providing healthcare for business is actually worse for the people.
Last edited by Celritannia on Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ethan Allen
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Postby Ethan Allen » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:28 am

The reason private healthcare exists is because healthcare is a service, not a right.
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