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How to slam down on nepotism?

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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How to slam down on nepotism?

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:24 pm

We often hear that it's not what you know, but who you know, that gets you hired. How can we help resolve this? I have two ideas in mind.

A. Require all businesses to publish a formula of objectively measurable credentials; eg. your grades in relevant courses multiplied by this, plus your number of hours worked in similar jobs multiplied by that, etc... such that any hiring decision at odds with that formula will stick out like a sore thumb.

B. Prohibit employment in one's country of birth, or any other country in which you've previously been employed in a separate job. That way you can't use "who you know" from a previous job for employment in the same country as before.

I assume B is unenforceable, though I do hope future generations come up with a way to enforce it; that'll have the added benefit of making people travel and meet people from other countries, instead of clinging to their home countries like nationalists. What about A, though? Is A enforceable? I'm thinking it might be a good placeholder for now until/unless society were to go through with B.
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:28 pm

What point is there in banning somebody from Alaska from seeking employment in Maine because his sister's sister's next-door neighbour's dog's original owner's nephew's grandfather's brother's daughter's next-door neighbour might be working for one of the companies over there?
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Asle Leopolka
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Postby Asle Leopolka » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:30 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:We often hear that it's not what you know, but who you know, that gets you hired. How can we help resolve this? I have two ideas in mind.

A. Require all businesses to publish a formula of objectively measurable credentials; eg. your grades in relevant courses multiplied by this, plus your number of hours worked in similar jobs multiplied by that, etc... such that any hiring decision at odds with that formula will stick out like a sore thumb.

B. Prohibit employment in one's country of birth, or any other country in which you've previously been employed in a separate job. That way you can't use "who you know" from a previous job for employment in the same country as before.

I assume B is unenforceable, though I do hope future generations come up with a way to enforce it; that'll have the added benefit of making people travel and meet people from other countries, instead of clinging to their home countries like nationalists. What about A, though? Is A enforceable? I'm thinking it might be a good placeholder for now until/unless society were to go through with B.

You've obviously never hired (or fired) anybody. If we went off grades and hours worked then a lot of incredibly inefficient people would be hired. Experience, proven results, and critical thinking are what matters most. I've interviewed people who had stellar grades but when it came time for them to demonstrate how to apply it to business problems they shit the bed.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:30 pm

Tinhampton wrote:What point is there in banning somebody from Alaska from seeking employment in Maine because his sister's sister's next-door neighbour's dog's original owner's nephew's grandfather's brother's daughter's next-door neighbour might be working for one of the companies over there?

People travel all over the USA for work all the time, but a near-majority of Americans don't own a passport, which is something you need for overseas work. This suggests that a lot more Americans have, over the generations, made connections with people on the other side of the country than with people overseas.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:33 pm

Asle Leopolka wrote:You've obviously never hired (or fired) anybody. If we went off grades and hours worked then a lot of incredibly inefficient people would be hired.

Take it up with the education system, then. They're paying billions of tax dollars for assessment of skill. It's not enough to accuse them of wasting it and then washing your hands of the problem.


Asle Leopolka wrote:Experience, proven results, and critical thinking are what matters most.

Then these things need to be assessed objectively. Which means, "not by a corporation with a financial interest in making them doubt their own worth so they can be underpaid with impunity."
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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Postby Sarzonia » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:34 pm

There isn't anything you can do to completely remove all subjectivity from a hiring decision.

Yes, there are criteria you can set up that make it unlikely anyone without the required background can even get in the door for a first interview, but once someone gets past the (often electronic) gatekeeper and in front of a hiring manager, anything that isn't objectively quantifiable can be incredibly subjective.

Sure, there are certain qualities and traits any hiring manager wants to see from someone who interviews, but there are intangibles you can never write into a job description.

As far as stamping out nepotism is concerned, I've seen sections of hiring manuals that require the manager to outline specific justifications why the relative, friend, etc. really is the best hire for the job, and not just because his father is the owner's best friend and golfing buddy.
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:43 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:We often hear that it's not what you know, but who you know, that gets you hired. How can we help resolve this? I have two ideas in mind.

A. Require all businesses to publish a formula of objectively measurable credentials; eg. your grades in relevant courses multiplied by this, plus your number of hours worked in similar jobs multiplied by that, etc... such that any hiring decision at odds with that formula will stick out like a sore thumb.

B. Prohibit employment in one's country of birth, or any other country in which you've previously been employed in a separate job. That way you can't use "who you know" from a previous job for employment in the same country as before.

I assume B is unenforceable, though I do hope future generations come up with a way to enforce it; that'll have the added benefit of making people travel and meet people from other countries, instead of clinging to their home countries like nationalists. What about A, though? Is A enforceable? I'm thinking it might be a good placeholder for now until/unless society were to go through with B.


A is not objective. It has the semblance of objectivity, since you just put a lot of subjective matter into numbers, but that just makes the numbers subjective.

Have you ever hired somebody? Been at the hiring side of an interview? Not only will people look at your qualifications, but also on your personality, how you fit into the team, etc.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:53 pm

Sarzonia wrote:There isn't anything you can do to completely remove all subjectivity from a hiring decision.

Yes, there are criteria you can set up that make it unlikely anyone without the required background can even get in the door for a first interview, but once someone gets past the (often electronic) gatekeeper and in front of a hiring manager, anything that isn't objectively quantifiable can be incredibly subjective.

Sure, there are certain qualities and traits any hiring manager wants to see from someone who interviews, but there are intangibles you can never write into a job description.

As far as stamping out nepotism is concerned, I've seen sections of hiring manuals that require the manager to outline specific justifications why the relative, friend, etc. really is the best hire for the job, and not just because his father is the owner's best friend and golfing buddy.

Family relations can be proven, but friendships cannot. As such, that creates plausible deniability for nepotism that only the requirement to make all hiring criteria objectively definable and verifiable can stamp out.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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Postby Diopolis » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:45 pm

Don't. Nepotism is natural and healthy. It only creates a problem when it gets out of control.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:09 pm

If I own the company, why not hire my cousins or their kids?
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Postby Asle Leopolka » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:18 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Asle Leopolka wrote:You've obviously never hired (or fired) anybody. If we went off grades and hours worked then a lot of incredibly inefficient people would be hired.

Take it up with the education system, then. They're paying billions of tax dollars for assessment of skill. It's not enough to accuse them of wasting it and then washing your hands of the problem.

That's not how universities in this country work. It's one thing to know material and another entirely to be able to apply it, especially when you enter business.


Asle Leopolka wrote:Experience, proven results, and critical thinking are what matters most.

Then these things need to be assessed objectively. Which means, "not by a corporation with a financial interest in making them doubt their own worth so they can be underpaid with impunity."

There is no objective measure for this. If you're a good salesman in industry X but are applying for jobs in industry Y, I'm going to hire the average salesman with years of experience in Industry Y because he'll be able to generate profit more quickly and provide a better ROI.

Plus, EVERY corporation has a financial interest. Even non-profits and public sector - they don't want to waste money.

Fit > credentials. Anyone who doesn't realize or accept this is just kidding themselves.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:18 pm

Depends on the situation. If the person is competent; is it really nepotism?

At one time I was a case of nepotism. My step-father was my over all boss. I was treated harsher then the average employee. There were never comments about my relation. There were comments of fuuuuck over incidents. He never wanted it to appear I got the job because we were related.

In my last job I was a little disturbed over how Indians practice it with little thought. The nephew of the CIO committed software piracy in a company worth billions. They gave one vendor a million dollars go make it go away. If I was in charge I would have been tossed on my ear without thought. The nephew? He was promoted. There was the case of the virtualization expert where I taught her to do her job. She had a healthy income. Paid far more then me. She was also the sister of a VP. There were many more cases....

I don't mind "nepotism" when the people are competent at their jobs.
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Postby Luziyca » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:26 pm

Get your family members to change their surnames before you hire them. That way, it won't be as obvious that you're committing nepotism. ;)
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:33 pm

Abolish capitalism?
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:36 pm

Ifreann wrote:Abolish capitalism?

It has been suggested. My cousin ... never mind.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:02 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Abolish capitalism?

It has been suggested. My cousin ... never mind.

Knows Karl Marx? Met him eating mushrooms in the People's Park?
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:08 pm

Luziyca wrote:Get your family members to change their surnames before you hire them. That way, it won't be as obvious that you're committing nepotism. ;)

And then a DNA test will get you on nepotism AND on tampering with the evidence thereof.


Ethel mermania wrote:If I own the company, why not hire my cousins or their kids?

Because your customers deserve better?


Asle Leopolka wrote:There is no objective measure for this.

So it's a "know it when you see it" thing? Sounds like a suspiciously convenient excuse for concealing one's real reasons for one's hiring decisions.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:12 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Luziyca wrote:Get your family members to change their surnames before you hire them. That way, it won't be as obvious that you're committing nepotism. ;)

And then a DNA test will get you on nepotism AND on tampering with the evidence thereof.


Ethel mermania wrote:If I own the company, why not hire my cousins or their kids?

Because your customers deserve better?


Asle Leopolka wrote:There is no objective measure for this.

So it's a "know it when you see it" thing? Sounds like a suspiciously convenient excuse for concealing one's real reasons for one's hiring decisions.

My customers get the service they pay for, just because my cousins kids may not be the best for their job, they would at least have to be competent for it.

Now if you were talking public sector not private, I would agree with you.
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Postby Heloin » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:13 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:What point is there in banning somebody from Alaska from seeking employment in Maine because his sister's sister's next-door neighbour's dog's original owner's nephew's grandfather's brother's daughter's next-door neighbour might be working for one of the companies over there?

People travel all over the USA for work all the time, but a near-majority of Americans don't own a passport, which is something you need for overseas work.

You don't check passports when crossing state lines.

This suggests that a lot more Americans have, over the generations, made connections with people on the other side of the country than with people overseas.

I think that's probably true for just about any country.
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Postby Luziyca » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:14 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Luziyca wrote:Get your family members to change their surnames before you hire them. That way, it won't be as obvious that you're committing nepotism. ;)

And then a DNA test will get you on nepotism AND on tampering with the evidence thereof.

The state has far more important things to deal with than petty nepotism.
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:17 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:It has been suggested. My cousin ... never mind.

Knows Karl Marx? Met him eating mushrooms in the People's Park?

Oh, I knew Herr Marx when he was living in London. He knew all the best German pastry shops in the city. I liked his family, too.
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Postby Aclion » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:18 pm

The best way to slam down on nepotism is to have a robust legal institution which can fairly enforce property rights, right to contract and liability. Nepotism usually crops up in place where these institutions are lacking, and people resort to leveraging other social institutions to replace them, like family, religious groups or tribes.
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:33 pm

Luziyca wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:And then a DNA test will get you on nepotism AND on tampering with the evidence thereof.

The state has far more important things to deal with than petty nepotism.

What's to stop your customers from doing it?


Ethel mermania wrote:My customers get the service they pay for, just because my cousins kids may not be the best for their job, they would at least have to be competent for it.

So it's "buyer beware," then?
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 103458
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:39 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Luziyca wrote:The state has far more important things to deal with than petty nepotism.

What's to stop your customers from doing it?


Ethel mermania wrote:My customers get the service they pay for, just because my cousins kids may not be the best for their job, they would at least have to be competent for it.

So it's "buyer beware," then?

It's always been that. I have to ask you, though, why do you think nepotism is such a huge problem on the local, everyday level, one requiring massive government intervention?
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Czechostan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 832
Founded: Apr 23, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Czechostan » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:57 pm

Put my cousin in charge of fighting nepotism; I'm sure he'll solve the problem.

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